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Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell

jmweeks writes "It comes in a black edition and a white edition, and I suppose this symbolizes the two schools of thought warring within. If you've been in any chain book store this month, you've seen its emblem--the raven in flight, the big swirling ampersand. Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell is something extraordinary: many adult fantasy novels are taken seriously by their readers, the nerds among us; Strange & Norrell is taken seriously by its publisher and its critics as well. It is a small complaint, then, to say that it is taken perhaps a bit too seriously by its author." Read on for the rest of Weeks' review. Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell author Susanna Clarke pages 780 publisher Bloomsbury Publishing rating 7 reviewer Jose M. Weeks ISBN 1582344167 summary A serious novel of fantasy and magic.

It is one of the great themes of fantasy, maybe even the theme: that some art or technology of incredible power has been lost, lost for ages--and just now, just in the present, it has been resurrected. We seek awakening, we seek renewal--I don't know, we seek something, because from The Lord of the Rings to The Wheel of Time to Stargate, this theme resonates.

In Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel, the lost art is magic. This is England as the Nineteenth Century opens, and magic--founded in this country by a king who was once its strongest practitioner, a king who reigned three hundred years--is not practiced any longer. Oh, hundreds of magicians still argue vigilantly over its customs and methods and history, but the casting of actual spells is beyond them.

Enter Gilbert Norrell, a strange little recluse of a man, who hoards books and does his damnedest to end the career of any magician he can find. Who is also, by the way, the first Englishman to do magic in centuries. Mr. Norrell's purpose is to restore magic to England, provided it is studied and practiced under his terms, and preferably by no one but him.

Jonathan Strange, a young man who stumbles upon magic on a whim, who is to become Norrell's colleague, student, and adversary, has something slightly different in mind.

The subject here is not good versus evil, but a clash of ego and philosophy. The novel's villains are driven by fear, weakness, and self interest; its heroes by ambition and wonder. This complexity is what makes the novel a work of serious fiction, what prevents it from being an epic. Epics are fate-driven and rarely concerned with shades of motivation. Characters act because they must act, they must save the world or all is lost, etc., etc. Strange and Norrell want with everything they have to restore magic to England, to found a school of thought, to--well, many other things that I won't spoil--and even if the whole story has been foretold, even if it is fated, it is a story that stems from their intentions.

This is not my complaint. That it is not epic I find refreshing. That it is character-driven I find engaging. In a book about magic, about the re-awakening of mysticism, my complaint is that there is so very little that is spellbinding. Jonathan Strange in particular seems to be driven by his own imagination, and yet he seems limited and his spells tend to do little more that move things about.

The novel takes place during the Napoleonic Wars, and not long after the magicians present themselves to society, they become employed in fighting back the French. This leads to a scene suggesting great imagination, a port blockaded by ships, sails, and even a crew, all made of mist. Yet once on the ground, Mr. Strange finds himself mostly occupied by making roads and then tearing them up again. This may be useful, but for a magician it seems petty.

That said, Clarke handles the particulars of spell-casting rather well. As a matter of plot, the novel's magic must follow certain rules: Spells must have limitations, bad results must be possible and irreversible, there must be no "take-backs." This is why, in the classic short story "The Monkey's Paw," the father isn't allowed to wish never to have made any wishes--we as readers don't accept stories that "cheat" that way. In Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, Clarke skirts on the edge of cheating (she allows resurrection), but never really falls in. There is also the danger that spell-casting will devolve into a game of Mornington Crescent, which is to say a conspiracy among the magicians to pretend each isn't speaking complete gibberish. This Clarke nearly overdoes.

You may have heard that this novel is, well, Harry Potter for adults. Don't believe it. It's true that Clarke shares a publisher with J.K. Rowling, and that Rowling's success almost certainly affected the publisher's interest in pushing this novel, but the two authors share very little in terms of style. Clarke's work is witty but cold, while Rowling's prose is anything but subtle and a great deal warmer. I'm not the first, I'm sure, to make this comparison: I can think of few writers Clarke's work more clearly resembles than Jane Austen. Considering the setting of this novel, however, that's probably deliberate.

The main task of a writer of fantasy is to construct a new and different world, and in this Clarke has succeeded. Her overwhelming footnotes, the dozens of side tales told by one character or another, the books and customs and politics of an England not quite as it is, but wholly consistent unto itself--these build a believable whole, they tell an engrossing story, they suggest perhaps something more.

There is talent here, a great deal of it. I believe, on the evidence of Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, that Susanna Clarke does have some great books in her. But for the time being, with this, her first novel, we'll have to settle for simply "good."

You can purchase Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

170 comments

  1. Sounds worth a try by erick99 · · Score: 0
    Well, having read all of the Harry Potter books aloud to my two sons, I think I might enjoy something a little different and oriented more towards adults. I think the reviewer is indicating I might enjoy this novel if that is what I want. I almost expect reviews of a novel to be somewhat negative so I can discount the overall negativeness of the review and give the book a chance.

    -erick

    --
    http://www.busyweather.com/
    1. Re:Sounds worth a try by tanguyr · · Score: 4, Informative

      "A Game of Thrones" by George R.R. Martin. You won't regret it.

      --
      #!/usr/bin/english
    2. Re:Sounds worth a try by pyrrhonist · · Score: 1
      Well, having read all of the Harry Potter books aloud to my two sons, I think I might enjoy something a little different and oriented more towards adults.

      Try something by Gregory Maguire. The Maguire book everybody has heard of is Wicked, and is still an interesting read, even if the book is a little over-hyped.

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    3. Re:Sounds worth a try by DarkFencer · · Score: 1

      Yes excellent series. Best out there by far in my opinion. Keep it away from the kids though, and be patient. The last book was released in 2000, and we're still waiting for the next one (it was due out in 2002).

    4. Re:Sounds worth a try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't like the volumes I've read of it.

  2. "adult fantasy novels"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    What, you mean like the Bible?

    1. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by goldspider · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      If there was ever a case for a +5: Flamebait...

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    2. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by cryptogryphon · · Score: 5, Funny

      a novel the bible is not, and it only rates adult 'cos of the sex.

    3. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by maxpublic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Only to those who can't laugh at themselves.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    4. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1

      That would only be true if you thought the GP was posting that purely as a joke. Somehow, I doubt it. Either way, even as a joke it isn't very funny.

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    5. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Three+Headed+Man · · Score: 1

      So you mean moderators, right?

      --
      I'm probably at the karma cap. Mod up a funny troll instead, it lightens the mood :)
    6. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...And Jesus went down into the town of Nazareth, and there he met Mary Magdalene..."

    7. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there was ever a case for a +5: Flamebait...

      Linux makes the baby jesus cry... :-(

      .

    8. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by maxpublic · · Score: 3, Funny

      You fundamentalists have no sense of humor. When my wife took to calling the incredibly bloody "The Passion of the Christ" - y'know, the Mel Gibson schlock that recently came out - "The Jesus Christ Chainsaw Massacre" she got nothing but grief from Christians who got their panties in a wad over it.

      Absolutely no sense of humor when it comes to anything remotely connected to your religion.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    9. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Txiasaeia · · Score: 1

      Well, it's not so much a "sense of humour" as it is a matter of fact that Christians are bashed about every day, as evidenced by the grandparent post. If we tend to get a bit twitchy, well, who can blame us :) (I'm an evangelical, not a catholic, and I too found the passion to be extremely violent and bloody)

      --
      Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
    10. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      I would expect no less from an anonymous coward.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    11. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not funny because he speaks the truth? You know deep down that your religion is based on a book of fluff, and you are just too afraid to admit it.

      I highly suggest you take a close look at your accomplishments and goals in life, and then take a look at Humanism. The world would be a much better place if everyone was a Humanist, we aren't going to succeed by believing in some man in the clouds that doesn't exist, we'll succeed by taking our lives into our own hands, working hard, helping others, and trying to do things that will "leave a mark" for years to come.

    12. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by ACPosterChild · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yep. Because, afterall, violence, vengence, and non-tolerance are all OK for kids to hear about. Boobies, on the other hand, are right out!

    13. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by s0l0m0n · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It's the evangelism that makes me bash, you know. The evangelical tradition is Christians bashing everyone else's beliefs. How often have I heard "Repent sinner, or go to hell!" from your ilk. Go ahead and get twitchy, but know that YOU are the cause of your own troubles.

      When you are ready to have an enlightened, peaceful religion, you will drop the conversion drive, let people live their lives, and keep the core tenants of your religion, which are mostly good. Until then, you are just a bunch of petty bastards arguing over souls that don't belong to you.

      But back to the topic at hand.. Seems like and interesting story ('Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell', not the bible). I generally don't get on well with fantasy stories set in the near past, present or the future, because well, I'm pretty sure that no magic is happening in those time zones. However, if the presentation is subtle (see John Crowley's 'Little, Big' fro an example of what I refer to), I can ussually suspend disbelief for long enough to enjoy the story. With amazon listing it at 16.99$, sounds like it might be worth the time.

    14. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1
      Who are these fundamentalists you speak of? I just didn't think the, now GGP, was truly posted as a joke and more as flamebait. And even as a joke, I didn't think it was very funny. Not because it involved the Bible, but because it wasn't funny.

      As far as the "Passion" goes, I still haven't seen it. Not sure I'm going to bother. However, based on what I've read, seen, and heard from those who have seen it. I would have to agree that it sounds like a 2.5 hour snuff film. If they wanted to protray the life and times of Jesus, they didn't have to use 30 gallons of blood and gore. Take that with a grain of salt though, as I said, I haven't seen it.


      PS: If you can't laugh at yourself, you have issues. That includes your beliefs. And if I seem a bit annoyed in this post, I just don't like being called a fundamentalist. On the other hand, if you weren't calling me one. I'm sorry.

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    15. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1

      Geez, if you're going to drop a comment like that you could at least stand behind it and login. I have to agree with maxpublic here, a comment like that can only be expected of an AC.

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    16. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Txiasaeia · · Score: 3, Insightful

      maybe you're misunderstanding the term "evangelical." There are three major branches in Christianity: Catholic, Protestant (lutheran, presbyterian and the like), and Evangelical (Baptist, Alliance, Mennonite, etc.) All of us are supposed to evangelise, but seriously, I've never actually heard somebody use the term "repent or go to hell, sinner!" used in all seriousness. I do have a peaceful religion; I don't usually evangelise unless somebody wants to, and I would definitely not condemn somebody for what they do - that's God's job. When I'm God, I'll judge others; until then, I'm just doing what Jesus asks of us: Love God & love your neighbour as yourself. I'm sorry if "my ilk" has offended you in the past.

      --
      Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
    17. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Txiasaeia · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just to clarify: "When I'm God" was meant as hyperbole. I don't expect to ever become God. Okay, *now* flame away ;) We Christians are used to it, what with the lions & such.

      --
      Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
    18. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Humpinate · · Score: 2, Funny

      HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!
      Man I haven't laughed that hard since Mississippi repealed Pi !!!!!

    19. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by mr+i+want+to+go+home · · Score: 1

      That's his job - taking the fun out of fundamentalism!

    20. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      Please don't encourage the pagans to do the Lion thing again. As C. S. Lewis (sort of) said, They have this thing called the press now, and it will probably blame you for raising the lion's collesterol.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    21. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by loucura! · · Score: 1

      "She was in a bind, quotas way behind... she was willing to make a deal."

      --
      Black and grey are both shades of white.
    22. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by galaxy300 · · Score: 1

      You very well may enjoy it. It's a very well written story. At that price, it would be a shame to miss it.

    23. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'm sure that Orthodox and Coptic Christians would dispute your classification of the three "major" branches.

      As to repent or hell, Luke 13: "2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them -- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

      Repent or perish? That "Jesus" guy musta been one a them thar crazy Fundermentalists.

    24. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by flushtwice · · Score: 1
      If there was ever a case for a +5: Flamebait...

      (Score:0, Flamebait)

      It's a shame that no one moderating seemed to get the joke. The reviewer cited Mornington Crescent within their article, and even had a convenient link to its explaination. Sometimes I get the feeling that this is exactly how the conversation works here on Slashdot... Your comment deserved better consideration. Perhaps you'll fair better with the metamods.

    25. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I've never actually heard somebody use the term "repent or go to hell, sinner!" used in all seriousness.

      You haven't? How many Baptist churches have you been in, exactly?

    26. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Txiasaeia · · Score: 1

      I attend one. In fact, I've never used the term used *at all*, except on Slashdot posts and Futurama.

      --
      Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
    27. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Txiasaeia · · Score: 2, Informative
      Ah yes, the orthodox church. Must have just slipped my mind. Certainly, it's not a group that most NA Christians think about, despite the fact that there are some 50 million Orthodox Christians in the world ;) Sorry to not include them.

      As for the Coptic church: pretty much the same thing as the orthodox, but different words for the same concepts and different languages used. Pretty much the difference between Anglicans and Presbyterians, in other words (loosely). Anyway,from the Wiki: "Since the 1980s theologians from the two groups [orthodox & coptic churches] have been meeting in a bid to resolve the theological differences, and have concluded that many of the differences are caused by the two groups using different terminology to describe the same thing."

      I guess I kinda bunched the Catholics & Orthodox churches together - they *are* very similar, despite outward appearances, and have been holding talks since the 60's about mutual recognition of each other's "religion." I think the original schism was mainly political, so it's not like there are huge gaps in theology between the two groups. Obviously i'm thinking like a protestant/evangelical and not a catholic, eh? Sorry to have missed anybody.

      As for the "repent or go to hell, sinner!" comment: two different contexts. Jesus wasn't talking to "sinners," he was talking to his own disciples. He wasn't openly condemning somebody to hell, he was telling his guys what would happen if they didn't repent. This I hear a lot in church. But to actually go up to somebody and say to their face, "Repent or go to hell, sinner!"? That's pretty harsh. Never heard it used. Never.

      Sorry to throw this waaay off-topic. Lol - I guess I'm risking my karma for Jesus, aren't I? :)

      --
      Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
    28. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by hachete · · Score: 1

      What's your definition of a novel? Are you saying that every word in the bible is true? I'd say that the bible was part myth part fantasy part witness (and we all know how partial witness statements are) - there's something in here for everyone. And, yes, that stacks up like a novel for me...but then, I don't believe.

      h

      --
      Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
    29. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by fbg111 · · Score: 1

      That's his job - taking the fun out of fundamentalism!

      uhmmm, then what's a "damentalist"?

      --
      Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
    30. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > uhmmm, then what's a "damentalist"?

      Uri Gellar?

    31. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by LaminatorX · · Score: 2, Informative
      I'd say that evangelical is more of an adjective than a proper noun. There are congregations in all the above faiths who walk the evangelical walk (the Catholics call them charismatics). I would also most certanly say that the Baptist church is very much Protestant. The Baptists and Anabaptists who died in Europe during the Thirty Years War stand in mute testament to their role in the Reformation.

      It looks like you may be going for some sort or High Church vs Common Church distinction there, but that's more of a liturgical difference than a theological one. Lutherans have more in common with Catholics (free will, holy communion) than Prespyterians (Calvinism, predestination etc) when you actually look at their doctrine.

    32. Re:"adult fantasy novels"? by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      I think you're getting a bit confused - "charismatic" refers to a position on the current work of the Holy Spirit: "evangelical" to a position on the authority of the Bible.

  3. The job of the fantasy writer by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Funny


    > The main task of a writer of fantasy is to construct a new and different world

    E.g., one where supermodels chase after Slashdotters in hopes of learning Linux and having their babies.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:The job of the fantasy writer by red+floyd · · Score: 1

      No, that only happens in GE appliance commercials.

      --
      The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
    2. Re:The job of the fantasy writer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      done
      http://www.geekculture.org/joyoftech/index.h tml

    3. Re:The job of the fantasy writer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So incredibly dull and predictable. What wrong with people around here?

    4. Re:The job of the fantasy writer by SWestrup · · Score: 1

      > one where supermodels chase after Slashdotters in hopes of learning Linux and having their babies.

      I'd buy that novel!

  4. An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 5, Interesting
    "The subject here is not good versus evil, but a clash of ego and philosophy. The novel's villains are driven by fear, weakness, and self interest; its heroes by ambition and wonder. This complexity is what makes the novel a work of serious fiction, what prevents it from being an epic. Epics are fate-driven and rarely concerned with shades of motivation. Characters act because they must act, they must save the world or all is lost, etc., etc."

    Not only was this an excellent review (thank you for submitting it), but I found the above passage very encouraging on a personal level. I am writing a fantasy novel (or series of novels) based on what I, as a teen, found personally was my only real complaint about LoTR: I wanted more in-depth characterization. No, that's not entirely fair, for LoTR certainly has some in-depth characters, but you get the idea. I wanted to not write yet-another-fanboy-saves-the-world epic, but to explore on an adult level the sorts of emotions you or I would find ourselves if we were in that situation.

    I've written and edited the first book, over 400 pages, and now have started in on book two. I've queried a dozen literary agents who specialize in fantasy fiction, but I've yet to find one who is willing to even read a sample. They all sent back rejection notes that were remarkably similar: Too busy, best of luck with someone else.

    Oh well, I will keep trying. In the meantime, I'm very glad to hear that someone likes complexity, shades of motivation, adult-level emotional responses. That's been my exact goal, and if there is a market for a Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell book, there should be one for mine as well (I hope, anyway). Thanks for the encouragement, jmweeks, even though you didn't know that's what you were doing!

    1. Re:An encouraging thought to me by qbzzt · · Score: 4, Informative

      Try Baen. They do not require an agent, and they are looking for new authors.

      --
      -- Support a free market in the field of government
    2. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1
      Thank you for the tip. They are actually my #1 target once I got beyond the try-to-find-an-agent stage, which is usually required at most publishing houses. The only reason I didn't try Baen yet is I read they have about an eight-month wait to hear if you will get accepted, and they prefer you do not do multiple submissions. So I thought I would try the agents first, and then when it came time to hitting the publishers directly Baen would be my first stop. I like their philosophy a LOT.

      And, well, frankly, I'm at a point where I'm not sure how to proceed. As I continue writing, I find that the characters deepen, and as they do the plot sometimes change. I've begun to wonder if the best thing is to at least get through the first draft of the whole book (1200 pages, I guesstimate) before peddling the edited, refined book one. Just in case I want to go back and change some things in book one. Once it's published, you can't really do that. Just talking out loud here, but suggestions welcome.

    3. Re:An encouraging thought to me by mattdm · · Score: 1

      I've written and edited the first book, over 400 pages, and now have started in on book two. I've queried a dozen literary agents who specialize in fantasy fiction, but I've yet to find one who is willing to even read a sample. They all sent back rejection notes that were remarkably similar: Too busy, best of luck with someone else.

      Here's someone else you might try. Jim Munroe spoke at this year's OLS about independent media, Linux and free software, and self-publishing. Very interesting, and maybe helpful for what you're trying to do.

    4. Re:An encouraging thought to me by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Once you get an agent, you may find that other publishing houses have an eight-month wait, also.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    5. Re:An encouraging thought to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only was this an excellent review (thank you for submitting it), but I found the above passage very encouraging on a personal level. I am writing a fantasy novel (or series of novels) based on what I, as a teen, found personally was my only real complaint about LoTR: I wanted more in-depth characterization. No, that's not entirely fair, for LoTR certainly has some in-depth characters, but you get the idea. I wanted to not write yet-another-fanboy-saves-the-world epic, but to explore on an adult level the sorts of emotions you or I would find ourselves if we were in that situation.

      c.f. George R. R. Martin's Song of Fire and Ice series.

    6. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1

      Thank you very much. I will check it out.

    7. Re:An encouraging thought to me by bgalehouse · · Score: 2, Informative
      Gene Wolfe has often written about what is involved in starting as a science fiction author. I believe the specific essays which I am thinking of are included in "Castle of Days".

      Anyway, there two bit of advice that I remember most clearly. Subject to memory error, the first is to try to publish some short stories first - less risk for the publisher, and then they know you. Second is to look for an agent once you've a letter of interest from a publisher. If they won't help you negotiate a deal with a publisher lined up and talking to you, then they won't help.

    8. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1

      Oh, I'm sure you're right. But at least then you have someone working for you, and someone who would have contacts at multiple houses. What I was afraid of was contacting Baen and then having to sit back and do absolutely nothing for eight months. Then if they say No, I've accomplished nothing for eight months. That's why I did things in the order I did.

    9. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the passed-on advice. I do have four published articles already, a fact I pointed out in my letters to each agent. They are not fiction articles, of course, so that's not directly applicable to these books, but at least it should show that I have been paid as a writer.

    10. Re:An encouraging thought to me by adam.skinner · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I had the desire to read another set of books that I had in my youth which had excellent character development. Do check out the Guardian's of the Flame series if you'd like some light, entertaining reading with quality characters.

    11. Re:An encouraging thought to me by nine-times · · Score: 2, Interesting
      OP:"...This complexity is what makes the novel a work of serious fiction, what prevents it from being an epic. Epics are fate-driven and rarely concerned with shades of motivation. Characters act because they must act, they must save the world or all is lost, etc., etc...."

      P: ...I am writing a fantasy novel (or series of novels) based on what I, as a teen, found personally was my only real complaint about LoTR: I wanted more in-depth characterization. No, that's not entirely fair, for LoTR certainly has some in-depth characters, but you get the idea....

      I would really say that this isn't fair to epics in general. I read LoTR as an adult, and I found the characters to be very deep at times. I don't think it would have been successful if the characters were all so simply acting out of necessity.

      I think what both you, and the original poster, might be doing (no offense) is mistaking writing style for depth. Writing has been shifting, for some time, towards more and more inner monologue and more explicit charactization by the narrator. In other words, books now tend to say what older books implied, but the same depth was implied. I might argue that the old writing styles are, in fact, more sophisticated, since I sometimes feel like modern authors are spoon-feeding me motivations and meaning far too often. However, it may be more related to our culture being more and more psychoanalytical with our use of language.

      At the very least, the hairs go up on the back of my neck when people start talking about characters from mythology and classic literature being flat and two-dimensional. Something strikes me as entirely wrong about that. Maybe it means you aren't reading carefully enough? Again, no personal offense intended.

    12. Re:An encouraging thought to me by de+Selby · · Score: 1

      "I'm very glad to hear that someone likes complexity, shades of motivation, adult-level emotional responses. That's been my exact goal, and if there is a market for a Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell book, there should be one for mine as well (I hope, anyway)."

      It's good to hear that more people are working in this direction. When I see a real-life villain say, "I am this way because I am eeeviil! ha-ha ha-ha. And I soon my forces of doom will spread around the globe!" as he rubs his hands together in a small display of his neutoric habits--instead of "What do you mean I'm the bad guy?! You're the bad guy, here!"--then maybe I'll consider simple good vs evil stories to be satisfying.... maybe.

      It can be hard for me to watch a movie or read a book in which there is lax motivation and depth and not think of Captain Planet. I don't know if I should laugh or cry half the time.

    13. Re:An encouraging thought to me by Mateito · · Score: 2, Interesting
      try to publish some short stories first.

      This may be because, in the literary world, its generally said that everybody want's to be a poet. Those whoe can't write poetry, write short stories. Those who can't write short stories, write novels.

      The idea being that short stories are more difficult to write than novels. You have relatively small amount of space to present your story, it has to have an impact, and you can't explicitly build in the back story.

      As many novels have shown, especially in Sci-Fi, you can run to 600, 700... 1000 pages. Its a different art-form. A lot of them are crap.

      Start writing short stories. It will help you, in the long run, to be a good novelist.

    14. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I appreciate what you are saying, and I even tried to modify my original thought in the post. Absolutely there are fully fleshed-out characters in classic literature, and that includes LoTR. What I wanted to do was expand some areas. For example, the southern armies that came at Sauron's call at the end of the Third Age: What was their motivation? Didn't they think they were doing something good and right? Or were they just "evil"? I wanted to explore the paradox of an organization that does evil things while being made up of individuals convinced they were doing the right thing.

      I want to explore the very idea of power and corruption, and whether it is possible to separate the two (probably not), and so what should one do with that knowledge when the opportunity for power comes along.

      I also wanted to give female characters equal time, so it's not nine men doing all the work with the women helping here and there and then showing up at the end (Eowyn, excepted, of course).

      So I'm not trashing LoTR or classic literature by any means. I LOVE classic literature. I just wanted to add my own two cents to the ocean of stories.

    15. Re:An encouraging thought to me by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      As a fantasy fan, I'd suggest that. Nothing more heartbreaking than having an author die in mid-trilogy. Both for the loss of their art and for never knowing how the story ends.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    16. Re:An encouraging thought to me by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      The men of the SOuth had long standing wars with Gondor, and had been under Sauron's rule in the old days. Thats why they came. A lot of these side facts can be gleaned from the Appendices, Unfinished Tales, The Silmarilion, and his other published notes.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    17. Re:An encouraging thought to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to read your 1st book to offer helpful critique. I've been reading sci-fi, westerns, fantasy and more since about 9 years old (about 27 years or so of reading). I'd be happy to sign and NDA or whatever you wish first.

      If interested, email me at ratometeratgmaildotcom

    18. Re:An encouraging thought to me by nine-times · · Score: 1
      Sure, that's what writers do. Variations on themes, changes of focus, rewriting old stories in a different context, etc. As a writer, it sounds like you're doing what you should: putting your own spin (point of view) on old ideas. I'm not even opposed to the more psychoanalytic way of writing, but I shudder when someone starts saying it's more complex.

      Part of the reason I kept saying "no offense" was that, I wasn't necessarily even responding to the meaning behind what you were saying. Like I said, when I hear/read something that implies superficiality in classic literature, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I feel like I should really say something.

      I guess partially is because I used to think so. I thought Oedipus Rex was a superficial nonsensical little story, until I read through enough of it in the original Greek to get the drift. A lot of the classics have the nice quality that if you are a simple reader reading it as a simple book, it presents itself as a simple book. However, if you read it looking for complexity, all the complexity you could want is in there.

      Again, I'm not saying this because I necessarily think you'd argue, but I do feel compelled to combat any thought in people's minds that classic literature is simple.

      So, write on, and good luck.

    19. Re:An encouraging thought to me by jmweeks · · Score: 1
      (I'm the reviewer.)
      I would really say that this isn't fair to epics in general. I read LoTR as an adult, and I found the characters to be very deep at times. I don't think it would have been successful if the characters were all so simply acting out of necessity.
      It was never my intention to say that epics can't have complex characters. Some do, some do not. In mainstream fiction you get characters made of cardboard and styrofoam as well as the ones that fell they may have come right out of your life. This is a question of talent, plain and simple--of whether the writer has the right kind of eye.

      No, what I'm talking about is a type of perspective, and perhaps even a type of inspiration. The perspective of an epic is, by nature, "This is what happened." The whole narrative is driven with fate in mind. The characters may (or may not) have complex motivations of their own, but to the narrative those motivations matter very little.

      In--let's be pretensious and just call it this--"serious fiction", the perspective closes in on the characters. The story here is "This is what is happening." The story is allowed to concentrate on trifling things, because it is about whatever the characters are about.

      Ok, that's the perspective. The inspiration I mentioned is simply what drives the story as the author is writing it. In heavily fated stories the inspiration is plot, and the characters are marched around to carry out actions that fulfill this plot. Some writers are better at this than others, but most tend to be pretty clumsy. Any time you see a character acting for no good (character) reason, but bringing about a great deal of action ... well, yeah.

      The other method of storytelling (these are not completely exclusive) is to let the characters drive. That is, to move them on terms that would make sense to them internally. The problem with this is you can't really have more than a vague idea of where the story is going to end, that is until it does end. So in epics, this is mainly out.

    20. Re:An encouraging thought to me by dejaffa · · Score: 1

      Based on the experience of a friend of the family, this is the way to go -- do your entire book, and sell it as a package.

      It took him ten years to get what turned into a trilogy written and published, but it was worth it. He is now writing for a living, and doing better financially than I expect to ever do.

      --
      There is no 'i' in team, but there is in fiasco...
    21. Re:An encouraging thought to me by nine-times · · Score: 1
      I still don't agree. LoTR, which is what you used as an example, is largely character driven. There may be some sort of "fate" at work, but I don't think this is really your point. Is it fate that drives Frodo along, or Frodo? I'd say Frodo has plenty of his own motivations and makes his own decisions. I'd say that about all of the major LoTR characters, and even most of the not-so-major characters.

      It seems to me that your contrast isn't whether the characters have motivations, or whether they're more driven by motivations or by fate. I go back to what I was saying before. In older fiction, authors didn't give the same access into inner monologue that modern writers do. Shakespeare's insertion of monologues into plays was an innovation. Now there are plays that are nothing but monologue. It's a style issue and a convention issue, but this doesn't make modern (or "non-epic"?) writing more "serious".

      And I object to the implication that LoTR isn't "serious fiction" because it lacks the convention of a narrator giving you the play-by-play of what's going on in Frodo's head. And I go back to what I said elsewhere, that a lot of the inner-monologue-type writing is actually less sophisticated. It's like "I don't trust you as a reader to be able to figure out what's going on, so I'm going to hit you over the head by telling you explicitly, THIS is the character's motivation! THIS is what the character is feeling!" The LoTR books, on the other hand, take you seriously enough to let you figure it out as much as you are ready to. I hate being spoon-fed.

    22. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the encouragement and advice. I appreciate hearing these things.

    23. Re:An encouraging thought to me by diseasesofseamen · · Score: 1
      Good luck. The market is pretty narrow for serious fantasy. I had an agent for almost two years on one I wrote, but it never went anywhere. Baen is the only house I'm positive that looked at it in any depth, and they liked it but said it was 'too dark'; my self-imposed ban on elves, fairies, and other cute creatures backfired, I guess... I ended up self-publishing, which banished it to obscurity, but at least it's available. It's called Elise Journey, for the interested, on Amazon:

      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1589 393694/qid=1096075472/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl 14/104-2573553-3573533?v=glance&s=books&n=5078 /

    24. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1
      Thank you for the insider view. I appreciate your thoughts about self-publishing, an option I keep open for myself (if only I could solve the publicity issue, the one thing print publishers are really good at).

      I just bought your book. I'm interested in your take on darker fantasy themes, and I wanted to support a fellow writer.

    25. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1

      I appreciate the offer, but I'm hesitant to do this at this stage with someone I don't know. In time, yes, that is the sort of thing I might do. But not just yet, as I hope you'll understand.

    26. Re:An encouraging thought to me by UID1000000 · · Score: 1

      i know that this is a very difficult task, but why not send it to buyers and Borders and B&N? If they really really like it I'm sure they'll put you in touch with a publisher.

      PS>>> I work at Borders (ahem)

      Good luck.

      --
      UID 1000000 is just around the corner.

    27. Re:An encouraging thought to me by UID1000000 · · Score: 1

      Also check with Cory Doctorow an author who is big on creative common licenses for his books. It's certainly made his books more popular in the long run it might even be the reason that he got his books published in the end.

      http://boingboing.net/

      --
      UID 1000000 is just around the corner.

    28. Re:An encouraging thought to me by UID1000000 · · Score: 1

      This is too true!

      It's like they (the publishers/writers) want to make it easier for people to figure out what is going on. Or better yet easier to get their personal point of view out into the world of their readers. For a long time in older fiction the point of the fiction was to make you think a short reading was meant to grasp your attention and provoke thought. What was the character feeling?

      With LOTR I think it's easy to see that Frodo, Sam, and Aragon have to deal immensely with emotion turmoil and make some serious decisions. Those emotions and character understanding are protrayed through the characters' devoting, for instance Sam did anything and everything for Frodo not do to Fate but because that is the type of person he is. Aragon didn't want to become King he wanted to stay away from it and be a vagabond wandering and "ranging", if it were. Only till about 2/3 of way through his journey did he realize that the world wouldn't survive unless he took the thorne. That the end of the inbalance of power between supernatural and man wouldn't end until he took throne. Did he realize this at first? No. But the readers certainly should have understood the emotional turmoil that the people he to go through.

      Another example besides LOTR is another kin to Tolkien, the Chronicles of Narnia. The story is very set in stone with an obvious parallel to Christ and his story but you know that the characters are emotional in depth. They have feelings, needs, cares, wants, etc. Look at the damn fawn! Mr nimbus was it? He was racked with guilt until Aslan forgave him.

      Do people not really read anymore? Or perhaps they're reading but not really reading/understanding what it is they're reading. Hmm...

      --
      UID 1000000 is just around the corner.

    29. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1

      I've actually emailed Cory, and he was the one who suggested I try the traditional route first, and only then start exploring alternatives. So your suggestion was a good one. Thanks.

    30. Re:An encouraging thought to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no problem... good luck.

      PS. I'm very envious of your devotion to writing. I've always wanted to pursure it and perhaps one day I will, with a bit more training. I've proofread for a few of my writer friends, I know you've probably got more than enough requests to proof now on /.

      -UID1000000
      http://books.slashdot.org/~UID1000000

    31. Re:An encouraging thought to me by damium · · Score: 1

      I had an aunt with the same problem. Only the first book was put on the publishers back shelf (no marketing.) Now she has two more in the series but she can't get them published because the first didn't sell enough copies.

    32. Re:An encouraging thought to me by TheCrazyFinn · · Score: 1

      Join Baen's Bar, test it out in the slushpile.

      Advice: Jim doesn't print Literature, he prints good stories.

      Also, a multi-volume series is not likely to get published as a first work unless the first book works well as a standalone work. too much risk for the publisher.

      But if you've got a rippin' good read, Baen is the most successful publisher of new authors in SF&F (And generally in fiction).

      --
      "You've got an invalid haircut" -Warren Zevon - Life'll Kill Ya
    33. Re:An encouraging thought to me by julesh · · Score: 1

      I've begun to wonder if the best thing is to at least get through the first draft of the whole book (1200 pages, I guesstimate) before peddling the edited, refined book one. Just in case I want to go back and change some things in book one. Once it's published, you can't really do that. Just talking out loud here, but suggestions welcome.

      Definitely a good idea. Apart from anything else, I understand that most publishers don't like buying a series from a new author unless there's at least a first draft of everything. They just don't want to take the chance that you won't be able to finish it.

      Another publisher worth considering ar Tor; they also read unagented slush. Although I know what you mean about Baen's philosophy. They're the only book publisher I know of that _prefer_ electronic submissions.

      Just a quick query -- is your 1200 pages doublespaced courier 12pt, or what? 'Cause if it is, that's a monster of a book. And if it isn't, it's probably even bigger. How many volumes are you splitting it into? :)

    34. Re:An encouraging thought to me by julesh · · Score: 1

      Second is to look for an agent once you've a letter of interest from a publisher.

      Good advice, but times have changed. There are only a few publishers left who will even read your work unless you already have an agent. Tor and Baen are the only big names in the SF/Fantasy field, I think.

    35. Re:An encouraging thought to me by julesh · · Score: 1

      Join an online writer's community. They're great for giving you the motivation to sit down and write, which is essentially the hardest part of becoming a writer.

      One I'm a member of is forward motion. They're good people.

      Or, if you think you have enough time for it, give NaNoWriMo a try this November.

    36. Re:An encouraging thought to me by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1
      "Just a quick query -- is your 1200 pages doublespaced courier 12pt, or what? 'Cause if it is, that's a monster of a book. And if it isn't, it's probably even bigger. How many volumes are you splitting it into? :)"

      The page count is my estimate of the final product, not what it is in my word processor. I know how books tend to wind up at 55-60 characters per line and 35-40 lines per page, at least in the SF/fantasy paperback arena. Book one came in at a little over 400 pages, and the outlines of books two and three are similar. It could be one big book as it is one big story, but I've been careful to create a natural story arc for each standalone book so that each reads well it its own right.

      But several of you have made the point that publishers prefer knowing that at least a first draft exists of the entire story, so on I go writing. This has been a very interesting thread to me, and I appreciate everyone's input very much.

    37. Re:An encouraging thought to me by crucini · · Score: 1
      ... world wouldn't survive unless he took the thorne.

      He had to grasp the nettle, though it made his hands bleed.
    38. Re:An encouraging thought to me by UID1000000 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the tip. I'm going to bookmark your cid and come back to it later this evening.

      =Scott

      --
      UID 1000000 is just around the corner.

  5. Well written review by keshto · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For once, it was a well-written review, devoid of either childing errors or put-on verbiage.

    However, I think his final grade for the book ("good") is too harsh. Having read the description that he gave before that, I'd have gone for somewhere between "very good" to "excellent".
    1. Re:Well written review by JohnnyNoSPAM · · Score: 1

      I agree that the review was well written. As for the final score... a rating is subjective. I haven't read the book, but this review certainly makes it sound enticing enough.

  6. A picture's worth a 10^3 words... by GillBates0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you've been in any chain book store this month, you've seen its emblem--the raven in flight, the big swirling ampersand.

    Screenshot of book cover below:
    --------
    | & |
    | |
    | -v- |
    --------

    J/K...:)
    actual image here: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1582344167.01.LZ ZZZZZZ.jpg

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
    1. Re:A picture's worth a 10^3 words... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    2. Re:A picture's worth a 10^3 words... by nmnilsson · · Score: 1

      But that not a raven, it's a vortex!
      ...and what's with the succubus?

      --
      No sig to see here. Move along.
    3. Re:A picture's worth a 10^3 words... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it just me or did anyone else see a screenshot of a nethack demon squaring off against a dust vortex in that last post?

  7. Are there text differences between the editions? by jjsaul · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When you say there is a black and a white edition, you're not saying textual differences like in The Dictionary of the Khazars, right?

  8. Good Books In Everyone... by Wandering+Wombat · · Score: 1
    ... everyone has at least one great story inside of them, but sadly most people lack the writing skills to get past the introduction. Personally, I think some wires got crossed, because stories I wrote years ago and didn't get published (too short, incomplete) have become bastardized as: Andromeda, The Forgotten, The One (with Jet Li), The Collector, and a bunch of other movies and TV shows. (Please bear in mind, my story is like Andromeda inly in the VERY BROADEST terms, but sadly, thats enough to keep me from ever publishing it.)

    Anyone else ever have that problem? An idea you thought was yours, and a year later it ends up on the screen?

    The funniest one for me was it turns out a story I wrote is VERY VERY, and I mean frighteningly similar to a book written in the 1950's... stupid time-travelling literature thieves.

    --
    I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
    1. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      In every work of genius we recognize our own rejected thoughts; they come back to us with a certain alienated majesty. ---R.W. Emerson

    2. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by foog · · Score: 1

      Sure, it's Why I Am Not A Writer: none of the ideas I come up with are really original or compelling enough to force me to hone my craft to a professional level, though I made vague, undisciplined, and mostly misguided attempts when I was younger.

      one of the most-repeated bits of advice for aspiring science-fiction and fantasy authors is to read as much of the genre as possible, especially short stories, because ideas get repeated so often, and magazine editors are desperate for original material.

      That said, I'm not sure how feasible acquiring an encyclopaedic knowledge of short fiction is, in any genre, or how one would go about it.

    3. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by Wandering+Wombat · · Score: 1
      Well, I read as much as I can, and I work hard to make my work original. See, much like a post a few above mine, only in the broadest terms are my ideas recycled, much in the same way that this book review is like Harry Potter. Yes, it's British. Yes, there's magic. Therefore, the connection is set.

      With my story, yes, a ship is lost in time for a hundred or so years, and yes, the universe has changed. Thats the ONLY similarity, and yet I distinctly remember being told "Why did you have to rip off Andromeda?" even though mine is clearly dated years before Andromeda ever came out.

      Also, very good quote, Coward Who Replied To My First Post. Very poetic. I thought of it first, though...

      --
      I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
    4. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by fdiskne1 · · Score: 1
      ...Anyone else ever have that problem? An idea you thought was yours, and a year later it ends up on the screen?

      It happened to me all the time. I wrote a story similar to "The Crow" way before the movie came out. I've written scenes where I could visualize it in my head how it would look on the screen and years later saw a movie that had it down exactly as I saw it. I've read books and knew how they'd end because I had similar stories I never got around to writing that went the same way.

      If I didn't know better (or do I?) I'd say there's a public sub-conciousness out there that we all tap into to come up with new ideas.

      --
      But why is the rum gone?
    5. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by VAXcat · · Score: 1

      Heck, go ahead and write your book - the theme of lost star empires and echoes of former glory, brought to life by a remnant of the past hardly originated with Roddenberry and Andromeda...Keith Laumer wrote several stories and novels based on such an idea, in the '60s and '70s, and they were far better than Andromeda - for example, "Earthblood" (what I'd give to see it made into a series or movie).

      --
      There is no God, and Dirac is his prophet.
    6. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by DrVomact · · Score: 1
      Well, "story ideas" are trivial. The hard part is turning the idea into an actual story...better yet, an actually interesting story. That is what writing is about: taking an idea and turning it around, twisting it a bit, so as to get a completely new perspective on it, so that the story sounds fresh and original. That's why you can't copyright ideas, only words. Originality doesn't consist of presenting ideas no one has ever heard of, it consists of envisioning familiar ideas in a new way.

      Let's put it this way: if you had a truly original idea, something no one had ever thought of before, then no one could understand it.

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    7. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by cmowire · · Score: 1

      Well, here's the thing.

      Very few books written are actually origional.

      I mean, rebuilding a fallen empire like in Andromeda has been done over and over and over again, all the way back to Roman time. Battlestar Galactica? Aneid?

      Remember the MICE quotient? Milieu, Idea, Characters, Event. Rebuilding a fallen empire is just an Event. A story's not just about an event, it's about the characters and ideas and milieu, too.

    8. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I didn't know better (or do I?) I'd say there's a public sub-conciousness out there that we all tap into to come up with new ideas

      Sure there is, it's called culture. There are a whole lot of people who have read almost exactly the same things you have, watched the same things you have, and experienced things pretty close to what you have, even at approximately the same time in their lives/developmental stages. People really aren't all that unique when you get down to knowledge and personality, most people fit into some category. It's not surprising that we share a lot of the same ideas, imagery, etc. It's what allows us to communicate meaningfully with each other.

    9. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by bujoojoo · · Score: 1

      If I didn't know better (or do I?) I'd say there's a public sub-conciousness out there that we all tap into to come up with new ideas.

      Crap. Now I've got a memory leak. I tell ya, I'm sick of maintaining this Matrix code...

      --
      This space for rent
    10. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If I didn't know better (or do I?) I'd say there's a public sub-conciousness out there that we all tap into to come up with new ideas.
      Damn it. I had this great concept for a sci-fi story last week, and now I find out that you've already had this idea...
    11. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by Wandering+Wombat · · Score: 1

      Rebuilding a fallen empire? That doesn't have the slightest thing to do with my story.

      --
      I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
    12. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by julesh · · Score: 1

      In that case, your story isn't even approximately like Andromeda. ;)

    13. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by julesh · · Score: 1

      A note to everyone who has given up writing a story because somebody else has published something with a similar idea:

      Don't give up. In a few years time, the world will be ready for another story based on that idea. It is frequently said that in literature there are no new ideas. All stories come down, in the end, to a mixture of some 12 or so basic plot elements anyway. All you have to do is write them in your own way, and they will be different enough from anyone elses story for you to publish them, and maybe even be successful. Have faith in your work.

    14. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      OMG that's the same premise for my nearly-finished character novel! (and I've never seen andromeda)

      Lighten up, chap. With science fiction, you've got to do something to bring the familiar to the future, whether it's time travel, a wormhole, cryogenics, or a person with an antiquated mindset. It's how people relate to the writing - they see it through the eyes of the familiar characters.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    15. Re:Good Books In Everyone... by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Hell, even Asimov's writing speaks of such a far-reaching empire that gets disolved/destroyed (in the Foundation and Empire books, i believe - it's been a while since I've read them).

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  9. Sounds interesting... by Chuck+Bucket · · Score: 1

    I like the idea of a lost art or power that is waiting to be discovered and used by a current generation. It's been said that there is no new art, and that it's all a reflection of the past. Still, the constant striving towards a new way to express ones self seems to be an ongoing theme in everyones' life; it gives them purpose.

    This reminds me of stories like Indiana Jones, to The Blues Brothers! Truely a universal ideal.

    ACB

    1. Re:Sounds interesting... by cbiffle · · Score: 1
      I like the idea of a lost art or power that is waiting to be discovered and used by a current generation.


      Many of us call that "Unix."
  10. Fantasy reflect real life? by OutHouse · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Mr. Norrell's purpose is to restore magic to England, provided it is studied and practiced under his terms, and preferably by no one but him. Jonathan Strange, a young man who stumbles upon magic on a whim, who is to become Norrell's colleague, student, and adversary, has something slightly different in mind. " Speculation here - I haven't read the book... but this almost sounds like proprietary versus open source type of argument???

    1. Re:Fantasy reflect real life? by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, clearly Strange stole secrets of Mr. Norrell's magic and is simply wishes to spread them to the masses without authorization.

      -Darl

    2. Re:Fantasy reflect real life? by easter1916 · · Score: 1

      Stop whoring for karma, you nerdish strumpet.

    3. Re:Fantasy reflect real life? by The_reformant · · Score: 1
      this almost sounds like proprietary versus open source type of argument


      you sir read too much slashdot!
      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
    4. Re:Fantasy reflect real life? by alphakappa · · Score: 1

      Of course, I forgot this is Slashdot.. how can people *not* think in terms of Open Source. For Heaven's sake, this is a friggin fantasy book! :-)

      --
      "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
    5. Re:Fantasy reflect real life? by version5 · · Score: 1
      this almost sounds like proprietary versus open source type of argument

      I just finished reading the book. Its very like much like that, although I think that even though book leans towards open-source populism, that doesn't seem to be the focus of the book.

      No, clearly Strange stole secrets of Mr. Norrell's magic and is simply wishes to spread them to the masses without authorization

      Yeah, that's true too.

      --

      "It's Dot Com!"

    6. Re:Fantasy reflect real life? by Megs · · Score: 1

      If open source software somehow becomes as useable as English magic is at the end of the book ... well ... I'm so there, and so is everyone else.

      --
      Ask me about LOOM(TM).
  11. HARDCORE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    This book is very good, but is almost Dickensian in its density and heavy-handed in its treatment of the major themes. It requires a LOT of energy to get through this one properly. Worth the read, but only if you ignore the critics and take it for what it's worth. NOT Harry Potter for adults-this is something altogether different.

  12. Sad news - magic dead at 2,354 by PCM2 · · Score: 1

    I just heard some sad news on the Sci-Fi - the beloved Ancient Arte of Ye Magick was found dead in its Maine home this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss it - even if you didn't enjoy its Great Work, there's no denying its contributions to genre fiction. Truly a universal ideal.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
  13. Help with iPod por favor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know this is off topic, but my iPod just fell in the friggin toilet!! There's some condensation on the screen and now it won't boot up at all.

    Should i just let it dry for a day or two and try again or take it apart and dry everything out manually? Or let Apple service it for whatever ungodly amount they charge?

    1. Re:Help with iPod por favor by erick99 · · Score: 1, Informative
      Let it dry out and I am guessing it will be okay. If it is not, find a technician (unless you are comfortable doing it) and open the case and you may have to clean out any mineral deposits and/or rinse the circuit board(s) with distilled water and allow to dry. It's surprising how well electronics can survive a plop into the water. I've learned this over the past 21 years in the computer industry. Good luck and I hope it turns out well.

      -erick

      --
      http://www.busyweather.com/
    2. Re:Help with iPod por favor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let it dry for a day or too, and then see?

    3. Re:Help with iPod por favor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should have flushed it.

  14. Sounds like a good book, by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But maybe you would have better success if it wasn't a fantasy novel. If you really want to explore on an adult level the sorts of emotions you or I would find ourselves if we were in that situation. you need to place us in a position that isn't difficult to grasp. What I'm saying is that often in fantasy or scifi books the superfoulous crap thats put in (Technological devices in scifi, wizards and magic in fantasy) gets in the way of exploring those emotions.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    1. Re:Sounds like a good book, by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1
      "you need to place us in a position that isn't difficult to grasp. What I'm saying is that often in fantasy or scifi books the superfoulous crap thats put in (Technological devices in scifi, wizards and magic in fantasy) gets in the way of exploring those emotions."

      Correct. Which is why my fantasy contains neither wizards nor magic. The protagonists have to work things out for themselves without being able to rely on the crutch of magic. The only fantastical elements of my fantasy are the types of characters. It's not just humans, and each type of creature has its own strengths and limitations that other types do not share. But otherwise you might as well be in the early Middle Ages.

  15. Jane Austin style admitted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    In an interview by KPCC-FM, the NPR station in Pasadena, California, the author said that she was in Southern California to give a book reading at "Book Soup." She admitted that she deliberately emulated the style of Jane Austin, and set the novel in exactly the time period that Austenites are used to. She did say that more happens in it, world-wise, than in Jane Austin. She also denied any interest in doing her own screenplay, or even meeting any Hollywood people. "My agent handles that." She said. She wants to concentrate on writing her second novel, which is not a sequel or prequel. -- Professor Jonathan Vos Post
    http://magicdragon.com
    over 15,000,000 hits/year

  16. Consider "simple" magic... by jbarr · · Score: 1
    In a book about magic, about the re-awakening of mysticism, my complaint is that there is so very little that is spellbinding. Jonathan Strange in particular seems to be driven by his own imagination, and yet he seems limited and his spells tend to do little more that move things about.
    Hmmm. I don't know. I haven't read the book, so I obviously can't speak to it specifically, but consider this concept for a plot: Imagine that the world we live in is our current "reality", and you actually stumble across someone who CAN "move things about" with magic. No, it's not "spellbinding" in the classic sense, but it would also be one of the grated "finds" in history. Don't sell short a plot of "simple" magic...
    --
    My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
    1. Re:Consider "simple" magic... by MichaelFree · · Score: 2, Funny
      "...it would also be one of the grated "finds" in history."
      Telekinetic cheese?
  17. Stolen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I work at a small bookstore in a local mall part-time, and we had three copies of this book. Personally, I had never heard of it before, and the cover is very nondescript. The book itself is rather large, and every one came shrink wrapped (which I thought was bizarre). My manager put them out on the shelf this way.

    One week after we got them, all three had been stolen. It would be a task, to say the least, to get that book in particular out of the store without anyone noticing (i.e. it was a bit awkward to handle). We were all confused by the fact that we'd never heard of it, and assumed it wouldn't be "popular".

    Was there any sort of build up or fanfare for this book before it was released? Or were our copies stolen by one diligent person? :P

    1. Re:Stolen by Andy_R · · Score: 1

      It's the title Bloomsbury are putting all their weight behind for Christmas sales. The hype machine has not really got going yet, but I have head that the print run of hardback 'review copies' sent out to journalists was larger than the entire run of your average best-selling hardback novel.

      --
      A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
    2. Re:Stolen by Kevin+Stevens · · Score: 1

      It was in the NYTimes Book review, and got a good write-up (good enough for me, who has not read fantasy since I was about 17, to give it a try). I am guessing that the "fantasy for adults" label given to it by the Times and other reviewers attracted teens into the eddings/dragonlance type of sci-fi to it, but the $27 sticker price was too much for them. Hence, they ripped them off.

      Just to put my own two cents in on it, im halfway through, and it is "good." At times it is a bit heavy and I wonder if its really worth it to wade through this mediocre story, but other times I find it really entertaining. Its a book that when is said and done I will have enjoyed, but wished I had bought it when it was a paperback.

    3. Re:Stolen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just realized I may have been slightly erroneous in my post... I believe the book had an article in Newsday's book review, not the NYTimes. Newsday also has a very large circulation in the NY Metro area though, second (if that) to only the NYTimes.

    4. Re:Stolen by galaxy300 · · Score: 1

      Probably some goth kids with no money.

    5. Re:Stolen by julesh · · Score: 1

      There have been interviews with the author all over the place. Apparently the marketing budget is quite large. The publishers think it's going to be very big.

  18. My elevator pitch... by cmpalmer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm about a third of the way through it now, so I can't give a full review, but I am enjoying it greatly. I bought it after reading about it on Neil Gaiman's blog, which is what inspired my elevator pitch for the book (when my wife asked what it was like):

    "It's like Jane Austin or Charles Dickens writing a Neil Gaiman book about English magicians."

    As others have opined, the style is deliberately (and so far, convincingly) Victorian. Lots of subtle characters who hide their feelings motivations from each other; lots of characters, period (I've almost had to start taking notes when minor characters from Chapter 1 show up 150 pages later); no sex, violence, or profanity (so far, I think, one "D---"); and many footnotes (some which run 80% of the page for 4 pages!).

    --
    -- stream of did I lock the front door consciousness
  19. Read it before you comment by fjvanniekerk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This book is good and is worth the money. You will not need to re-read it in two years when you need the space on your wall. The advertising budget is very large for this book and the reviewer should state his allegiances as I suspect some viral advertising.

    Extract from Economist "Bloomsbury is now launching it with its biggest ever marketing budget for a single book."

    --
    this sig intentionally left blank
  20. in progress... by tgibbs · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm not yet halfway, so this is not yet a review.

    I'm definitely hooked. It was quite slow in starting, and very mannered in style, but the sly humor kept me reading. Many of the "scholarly" footnotes are wonderful little fantasy vignettes. For a book about magic, there is a great deal of people talking about magic and very little of them doing it. But the magical scenes, when they occur, are quite satisfyingly magical.

  21. sunken iPod by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    Check out this web site

  22. You seem to be setting a high standard by gonerill · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can think of few writers Clarke's work more clearly resembles than Jane Austen. ... Susanna Clarke does have some great books in her. But for the time being, with this, her first novel, we'll have to settle for simply "good."

    So what you're saying is, to merit a grade of, say, "very good" from you I'd have to write better than Jane Austen?

    1. Re:You seem to be setting a high standard by curtlewis · · Score: 1

      No, he's not saying that. It was a stylistic comparison not a qualitative one.

    2. Re:You seem to be setting a high standard by jmweeks · · Score: 1
      I didn't compare Clarke's ability to Jane Austen, I compared her style (I also mentioned that this may be intentional).

      To get a "very good" from me, this novel would need more emotional weight. I'd have to like the characters more. I'd have to believe the characters more.

      To get a "great" from me, on top of that. the novel would have to be structurally more "tight." That is, it lollygags too much in the opening, and it doesn't work up to its climax quite like it should. And many other things...

      But the style, the sentence-by-sentence writing, she hid dead on. That's where the Austen thing comes in.

  23. This is what the Tinfoil Hat is for by Ira+Sponsible · · Score: 1

    You gotta keep your Tinfoil Hat on until you have the book published, otherewise you're just broadcasting your ideas to the rest of the planet. Jeez, man, you should have heard the phrase "Keep it under your hat." TINFOIL HAT for privacy. It works. It can be stylish. Soon it will be fashionable Just like these things!

    --
    1.Netcraft confirms:In Soviet Russia all your base welcomes a beowolf cluster of CowboyNeal overlords. 2.? 3.Profit!!1!
  24. For the Bay Area fans..... by BurningRome · · Score: 1

    I was at Kepler's Bookstore in Menlo Park last night (seeing Louis de Bernieres read) and there was a big poster advertising Clarke reading there TONIGHT (Friday 24th). I think at 730PM - check here http://keplers.booksense.com/NASApp/store/IndexJsp / Haven't read the book but I've read generally good reviews of it....too bad both the aforementioned de Bernieres has a thick new novel out, as does /. fave Neal Stephenson......

  25. Then go write. by cuberat · · Score: 1
    Pardon me for being abrupt, but the reason the stories you wrote years ago didn't get published have nothing to do with being redundant with the stories that did. They didn't get published for two reasons you mentioned - they were too short, and incomplete - and one that was implied: you never gave it a shot.

    Maybe there are no new themes since Shakespeare and maybe there's nothing new under the sun, but if you're a writer that shouldn't stop you. I guarantee you that if you write something with a good hero, a charming rogue, a damsel in distress, a dashing villain, and you put them through conflict and resolution in some interesting way, you've got the basis for a fine story that will be interesting to someone.

    Not to mention that new readers are born every day, and maybe your rendition of an old theme will be the first time they see it. To use a baseball analogy, you can have a long and lucrative career if you never hit a home run but put up a single or double every other time at bat.

    Please, go forth and write, edit, and submit for publication. And if you won't, then admit it is because you are lazy or self-concious or full of doubt or some reason besides, "I could have written The Matrix but I didn't because someone already did."

    --

    I'll tell you what the 'effect' is! It's pissing me off!

    1. Re:Then go write. by Wandering+Wombat · · Score: 1
      It isn't a matter of I'm lazy or self-concious. It's more of a matter of getting my gf pregnant, putting myself through college so I could get a job to support us, and averaging five minutes of spare time per day which I don't like to spend reading how lazy I am.

      Sorry, I don't mean to be bitchy. It's been hard for me to write lately. I really am only able to write anything of quality when I'm alone somewhere, maybe with a Coke, some good loud music, and no distractions. I have a 2 year old who seems to have a glowing neon "Distraction" sign floating along behind him.

      I know that my stories are different from what is out there, but the fact is the literary agents I talked to cited those reasons as why it was turned down. Publishers wont take work not solicited from agents, and agents wont read work that hasn't been recommended by someone they know. I sent a sample of my work to Larry Niven after we got to talking on a forum, but that was the last I heard of him.

      Regardless, I start my new job next week, in a house that lets me have a little space of my own (it's a corner of the basement. I'm building a cubicle out of cardyboard boxes.) Then we'll see if I can get some of my stories finished.

      --
      I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
    2. Re:Then go write. by psykocrime · · Score: 1
      I know that my stories are different from what is out there, but the fact is the literary agents I talked to cited those reasons as why it was turned down. Publishers wont take work not solicited from agents, and agents wont read work that hasn't been recommended by someone they know. I sent a sample of my work to Larry Niven after we got to talking on a forum, but that was the last I heard of him.

      Self-publish some stuff on the 'Net and, if it catches on, leverage the name recognition you get to get published by a "real" publisher?

      --
      // TODO: Insert Cool Sig
  26. The job of the fantasy writer-Delusions R' Us. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "E.g., one where supermodels chase after Slashdotters in hopes of learning Linux and having their babies."

    Sorry, land of delusion is down the hall. Second door to the right.

  27. Good Books In Everyone...Everything's relative. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Let's put it this way: if you had a truly original idea, something no one had ever thought of before, then no one could understand it."

    Einstein's Relativity.

    1. Re:Good Books In Everyone...Everything's relative. by DrVomact · · Score: 1
      > Einstein's Relativity.
      Newton, twisted and folded creatively. See you what I mean?
      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
  28. Re:Are there text differences between the editions by ElectroKiwiMonkey · · Score: 1

    No, they're identical. One has a really ugly white cover, the other has a not-sexy-but-still-good black cover.

    --
    I am not a man, I am a free number.
  29. Whee! (Re:"adult fantasy novels"?) by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What, you mean like the Bible?

    Whee! Such hilarious, sophisticated humor :) And so original; nothing like it on /. or in pop culture ...

    But seriously, have a read. You might rethink things:

    The Bible (NIV)

  30. Good review. by Jack9 · · Score: 1

    This sounds exactly like the kind of book I would like to buy. Sounds a lot like Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere which I thought was awesome.

    --

    Often wrong but never in doubt.
    I am Jack9.
    Everyone knows me.
    1. Re:Good review. by cmpalmer · · Score: 1

      Probably a safe bet, as I said in another post, its a lot like a Victorian Neil Gaiman novel.

      One think the author does extremely well is balancing the fantastic with the ordinary. The way certain aspects of Faerie fade from memory and people are prevented from telling of them by magical compulsions is making it very interesting to me.

      --
      -- stream of did I lock the front door consciousness
    2. Re:Good review. by julesh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I find the comparisons with Neil Gaiman interesting, because according to an interview I read with the author a while back, Gaiman was instrumental in getting the book published -- IIRC, the author's writing instructor was a friend of his and sent him a copy, which he forwarded to his editor, who went on to buy it.

  31. Re:Are there text differences between the editions by cmpalmer · · Score: 1

    I was hoping there wasn't, but I wasn't sure, particularly since the all of the copies at B&N were shrinkwrapped with a really thick, resiliant shrinkwrap. Odd.

    I bought the black copy -- didn't care much for the white.

    --
    -- stream of did I lock the front door consciousness
  32. Booker prize failure by maroberts · · Score: 1

    Apparently it didn't make the Booker Prize shortlist because most of the judges felt that a good editor would've removed about 2-300 pages from the story.

    I'd be interested to hear the opinion of anyone who has read the thing on this....

    --

    Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
    Karma: Chameleon

  33. Re:mod Fdown by julesh · · Score: 1

    ????

    I've never seen a troll post his own suggestion to mod his posts down before.

  34. Wikipedia by chad_r · · Score: 1

    Damn, put in one link to wikipedia, and the next thing I know I'm spending an hour on a dozen articles on stuff I've never heard before. Wikipedia links should come with a warning. It's like a time-sucking vortex.

    Excuse me, now, while I go play some Mornington Crescent.

    1. Re:Wikipedia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember that since you're playing on Saturday, you'll have to use the Islington variants.

    2. Re:Wikipedia by tiled_rainbows · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but which Islington Variant? The Holloway Road version comes with a three-point starting penalty.

  35. Why Manuscripts Get Rejected by sbszine · · Score: 1
    You might like to try Tor also (publishers of Gene Wolfe among others). They seem pretty cool, and have a very honest guide to how they evaluate slushpile submissions, and why manuscripts get rejected:
    1. Author is functionally illiterate.
    2. Author has submitted some variety of literature we don't publish: poetry, religious revelation, political rant, illustrated fanfic, etc.
    3. Author has a serious neurochemical disorder, puts all important words into capital letters, and would type out to the margins if MSWord would let him.
    4. Author is on bad terms with the Muse of Language. Parts of speech are not what they should be. Confusion-of-motion problems inadvertently generate hideous images. Words are supplanted by their similar-sounding cousins: towed the line, deep-seeded, incentiary, reeking havoc, nearly penultimate, dire straights, viscous/vicious.
    5. Author can write basic sentences, but not string them together in any way that adds up to paragraphs.
    6. Author has a moderate neurochemical disorder and can't tell when he or she has changed the subject. This greatly facilitates composition, but is hard on comprehension.
    7. Author can write passable paragraphs, and has a sufficiently functional plot that readers would notice if you shuffled the chapters into a different order. However, the story and the manner of its telling are alike hackneyed, dull, and pointless.

    (At this point, you have eliminated 60-75% of your submissions. Almost all the reading-and-thinking time will be spent on the remaining fraction.)

    1. It's nice that the author is working on his/her problems, but the process would be better served by seeing a shrink than by writing novels.
    2. Nobody but the author is ever going to care about this dull, flaccid, underperforming book.
    3. The book has an engaging plot. Trouble is, it's not the author's, and everybody's already seen that movie/read that book/collected that comic.

    (You have now eliminated 95-99% of the submissions.)

    1. Someone could publish this book, but we don't see why it should be us.
    2. Author is talented, but has written the wrong book.
    3. It's a good book, but the house isn't going to get behind it, so if you buy it, it'll just get lost in the shuffle.
    4. Buy this book.
    Full article here.
    --

    Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling

    1. Re:Why Manuscripts Get Rejected by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 1
      Thank you for the good reminders. In discussing my manuscript with other writers, who have helped me with grammar and plot issues, I hope I'm not being immodest when I suggest I have passed the first seven rejection reasons, and at least two of the next three (is my plot unique? I took an existing archetype and twisted it my way while subverting several common elements in a way that should surprise most readers -- but hey, maybe someone else beat me to it and I don't know about it).

      So I find myself in the last 1-5% category, and most of the rejections I got from the agents had variations of your last four reasons listed: Nice writing, but not for us. We have no time to take on anyone new. You should get published, alas we cannot be the ones, etc. I think it's the old syndrome of you need to be published already before anyone gives you the time to get published. That's OK, I'll keep trying. And I appreciate the tips.

    2. Re:Why Manuscripts Get Rejected by sbszine · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think it's true that you need to be published to get published. That's why a lot of the well-known SF writers started out with short stories -- it's not such a huge risk for a magazine to include one story by an unknown writer. Even a larger fanzine might be a good place to start.

      Hey, do you have any of your writing online where I can take a look at it?

      --

      Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling

  36. o/" Memories... o/" by SeanDuggan · · Score: 1

    I read that series growing up. They had the bound trilogy-as-one-book and I reread it several times. Unfortunately, the only other book I ran into in the series was the 5th or 6th or so, The Warrior's Son maybe? Eh, anyhow, good stuff. I particularly liked the fact that you had some feeling of realism in it despite the fantasy setting. One of the members of the party died within the first day or so in the new world and a few others die later. Sure, the remaining party members seemed at times to be slightly overpowered compared to the world compatriots, but not such that they couldn't lose teeth, appendages, their lives, etc if they weren't careful and/or were unlucky.

    --
    This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.