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BMW Shows Off World's Fastest Hydrogen Car

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the saving-some-power-units dept.

loid_void writes "According to Reuters and others BMW unveiled the world's fastest hydrogen-powered car at the Paris auto show on Wednesday, dubbed the H2R, capable of exceeding 300 kilometers (185 miles) per hour. The are also working with Shell on hydrogen dispensing stations. '"Our drive toward the future is called hydrogen," BMW management board member Burkhard Goeschel said before the tarp slowly slipped off the teardrop-shaped body of the sleek race car.' All I want to know, does it come with an iPod hookup?"

30 of 400 comments (clear)

  1. next step... by Coneasfast · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hydrogen is obtained either from fossil fuels such as natural gas or by applying electrical power to water molecules. Ecologically, the problem of finding a regenerating source of primary energy remains.

    let's see now if you can develop the world's cheapest car ;)

    --
    Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
    1. Re:next step... by ifwm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The only reason that we get hydrogen from non-renewable resources now is that you have to develop feasible fuel cells before we worry about infrastructure. What, we should find a way to refine vast amounts of hydrogen when there's no place to use it? Yeah, that's genius...

      By the way, I'll gladly jump on the bandwagon (and eat crow if it crashes) because this is the magic bullet. Electricity and pure water, made from the most abundant element in the universe. Hmm we'd sure look like asses for buying into that one.

  2. Isn't - by thewldisntenuff · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hydrogen pretty dangerous stuff? I mean, I know it's quite explosive....(From what I recall from freshman chem :) ) Does anyone remember the Hindenberg?

    Which brings my question - how do you stablize hydrogen so it's not so explosive?.....A car accident could spell disaster if not properly contained...Or am I wrong?

    -thewldisntenufff

    --
    My MythTV HowTo
    1. Re:Isn't - by flyboy974 · · Score: 1, Interesting
      The guy who helped design solar panels and NiHi batteries has come up with a way to store Hydrogen in a solid form.

      http://www.txohydrogen.com/home/home.htm

      While stored in this environment, it's safe. You have to have a simple process to extract it. Expanding upon his product, there are solutions that you can actually embed the hydrogen in a foam like solution in a cars body. Your car is the gas tank. Your bumper could store all the hydrogen safely.

    2. Re:Isn't - by (H)elix1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hydrogen pretty dangerous stuff? I mean, I know it's quite explosive...

      Any kid (with proper access to materials) can tell you H2 alone will give a fair bang, but properly mixed with pure O2 the results are much more impressive. I remember blowing the windows out of the garden shed - Mom did not believe me when we said we were making water.

      --
      +++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
    3. Re:Isn't - by IAR80 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The main problem is that you need to have the hidrogen liquefied or otherwise your tank will give you a range of 20cm. Also the H2 molecule is very small and tends to escape through pores. Combine this with high presure and a smoker in a huge underground parking lot.

      --
      http://ebgp.net/ccc/
    4. Re:Isn't - by DavidTC · · Score: 4, Interesting
      That's the gag. You have a gas leak while your car's sitting in the garage, you might have a mess and possibly a flameout.

      You have a hydrogen leak, and someone walks in and flips on the light switch...

      I hope, if they're going to do this, they're at least going to have the sense to perfume the hydrogen, like they do natural gas, so we can go 'Oh, crap, hydrogen leak' and run like hell.

      I don't really understand the logic of hydrogen cars. If we have hydrogen, we can effortlessly convert that to 100% clean electricity via burning. So why the hell don't we just do that at the power plant?

      I mean, I'd understand if we had some magical source of hydrogen, and we didn't want to lose power though the overhead of power transfer and batteries...but we don't. We have absolutely no way of getting hydrogen, outside of fossil fuels, that doesn't use up more electricity than we put into it. I've never heard of any way even proposed to get said hydrogen.

      The entire concept is completely illogical, it sounds like someone realized you can burn hydrogen and get water, slept through an enviromental film, and built a 'clean' car. Hey, I can build a car that takes a continual supply of D batteries, by that logic it's a clean car.

      And I have to point out the same applies to anything, thanks to thermodynamics. Everything on earth either exists at the lowest energy state, or at least will stay there if we make energy from it. We can't go around breaking up H20 and burning the H to get power, and anyone who's ever had any physics will easily explain why.

      The only exceptions are things that are ultimately powered by the ouside, such as solar, wind, water, and tidal power. (Although geothermal, while a closed cycle, is not incredibly likely to run down in any measurable time. And the same with fussion and fission.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    5. Re:Isn't - by steveha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You have a hydrogen leak, and someone walks in and flips on the light switch...

      I hope that the vent system will have a little pilot light or sparker or something, and will burn up the wasted hydrogen. Maybe even run the waste hydrogen through a fuel cell and charge a storage battery?

      Except for your enclosed garage scenario, even unburned waste H2 should be safe, because it's lighter than air, so it will disperse quickly. If it settled to the ground in a pool, that would be bad. But even gases like propane, which can settle in a pool, rarely explode because they dissipate quickly. But yeah, contain them and ignite them and you are having a bad day.

      I hope, if they're going to do this, they're at least going to have the sense to perfume the hydrogen, like they do natural gas

      I don't think this will work. The whole point of the liquid hydrogen is that it is much much much more compact than gaseous hydrogen. Is there a scent you could add, that would be potent enough you could smell it when one milliliter of liquid hydrogen vaporises into one liter of gas? And would this potent smell chemical cause problems for the fuel cells, or make nasty chemicals when burned in the engine?

      We have absolutely no way of getting hydrogen, outside of fossil fuels, that doesn't use up more electricity than we put into it. I've never heard of any way even proposed to get said hydrogen.

      The FA proposes to use solar power to get the hydrogen out of water. This will work. You can put large solar plants in places where the sun shines a lot, and transport the hydrogen to where you need it.

      The problem is that I'm dubious about liquid hydrogen as the way to transport it. Suppose you build a bunch of solar collectors out in, say, Mexico... or maybe you make solar collectors that just float on the ocean in an out-of-the-way place. Great. But can you keep it cold enough to still be liquid all the way from there, to the local fuel station where the customer buys it? Will you lose a bunch to boil-off as the liquid warms, or perhaps burn up a bunch to run refrigerators to chill it? Will you lose so much that it drives the price up? In short, is this really practical?

      The other problem is that if this becomes really popular, I'm not sure solar can scale up enough to provide all the hydrogen people will want. Well, there's always the nuclear option.

      I keep hoping someone will invent some magical fuel tank that will somehow really lock the hydrogen in. Maybe little microcells that each store a small quantity or something.

      Our biggest problem isn't getting energy, it's getting energy exactly where you want it. If hydrogen becomes practical, you could put a power plant just anywhere and use hydrogen to bring the power wherever it's needed. And the hydrogen part wouldn't pollute anything.

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    6. Re:Isn't - by Ricdude · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I hope, if they're going to do this, they're at least going to have the sense to perfume the hydrogen, like they do natural gas, so we can go 'Oh, crap, hydrogen leak' and run like hell.

      Fuel Cell Today - Hydrogen Explosion Investigation

      BURNABY, B.C. (CP) - Experts from United States have arrived to help investigate the explosion which resulted from a tanker truck leaking hydrogen at the Ballard Power facility. The leak sparked an explosion and small fire that sent the truck's driver to hospital with minor injuries. Officials from the Department of Transport, the U.S.-based Jack B. Kelly Inc. trucking company and Praxair will be meeting to investigate the incident in the coming days, Burnaby Fire Department assistant chief Jake Reynolds said Sunday he's been told. "It's a matter of dotting the i's and crossing the t's," he said. At around 9 p.m. Friday, a tanker moving fuel at the suburban Ballard Power Systems plant backed into an industrial building. The impact ruptured a hole in the tank, sparking a fire and leak. The truck driver suffered minor burns to his face but there were no other injuries or damage to the plant, Reynolds said. Crews let the fire burn out but were afraid the gas could explode again. A nearby golf course was evacuated, along with dozens of Ballard employees and those at a nearby Future Shop warehouse.

      Now, admittedly, the driver only suffered minor burns. However, they did still evacuate a nearby golf course and warehouse. And the explosion was triggered solely by the leak (static electricity buildup as the gas leaves the tank, likely).

      Now tell me why I want one of these in my car?

      --
      How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
  3. Not if well designed and tested by stryders · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wouldn't compare a giant bag full of hydrogen to a modern car engineered by a company well known for its safety engineering. Here's an older article that discusses their safety (scroll a bit) on CNN

    1. Re:Not if well designed and tested by RobertLTux · · Score: 2, Interesting

      besides if the car was designed with an upward/ multiple failpoints in the tank (ie the tank cracks on the top in about a half dozen places) what we would have is gas venting away from the area (the H blew because it contained the gas) safer than petrol maybe??

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  4. How to keep it cool? by Dog's_Breakfast · · Score: 5, Interesting

    From the BMW web site:

    "...the specially insulated 140-liter tank for the liquid hydrogen provides a range of 400 kilometers....By cooling hydrogen to -253 degrees Celsius, hydrogen is shrunk to a thousandth of its original volume. 70 layers of aluminum and fiberglass sheets between the exterior and interior vehicle walls insure that the liquid hydrogen remains at extremely low temperatures."

    What I don't understand is how they manage to keep it at such a low temperature. If the tank warmed up to the normal temperature of the surrounding environment, the pressure inside the tank would be 1000 times greater than sea level. Wouldn't that pose a danger of explosion?

    1. Re:How to keep it cool? by Dog's_Breakfast · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, it's got great insulation. Rather like a super-Thermos jug. But even the best Thermos jug eventually fails to keep your drinks hot/cold forever. I don't think there is any insulation that is 100% energy-leakproof. So back to the car - if you burn off the hydrogen quickly, it should be no problem. But park the car in a sunny place for a few days, and an explosion seems like a distinct possibility (unless of course the tank can withstand 1000X atmospheric pressure). It would have to be a pretty strong tank.

    2. Re:How to keep it cool? by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The 70 layers of fiberglass probably do a good job. The temperature will decrease linearly from one Al pane to the next as you go in. Of course this would imply a temperature gradient, so heat is flowing in, but very slowly (because of the fiberglass) and as the hydrogen warms up I would imagine they have a pressure regulator to let the system burp out a bit of gas once in a while. That robs the liquid of a lot of heat from the PdV term alone. My guess is that if you wait long enough all of the liquid will evaporate to the gas phase and escape via the regulator, and the interior temperature will increase once the hydrogen is gone.

      "Hydrogen power" is still a ripoff. What we need are nuclear cars. That would solve the carbon emissions problem, and everyone would be nervous and drive more carefully so it would save lives too.

    3. Re:How to keep it cool? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It is probably stored very similary to how liquid nitrogen is stored, at low pressure, with venting. As long as the container is sufficiently insulated, the amount you have to vent off to maintain the temperature is small.

      But, if you left the car stored for a while, you would have less fuel than before.

    4. Re:How to keep it cool? by anadem · · Score: 2, Interesting

      by latent heat of vaporization? start very cold, and "exhale" (leak or burn) H2 continually? LN2 is kept cold that way, don't know if it's feasible for H2 bcos of the lower BP?

  5. Re:boom by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Are you implying that a tank of hydrogen can't explode into a fireball under any circumstances? Maybe you should review a tape of the Challenger disaster again.

    BTW, regarding myth #2, I don't buy the theory that the Hindenburg accident was not made worse by hydrogen. If it were filled with helium, the outer skin might have burned off, but the entire frame of the airship probably would not have been instantly converted into white-hot molten aluminum. Maybe it would have gently settled to the ground, giving people enough time to think about not panicing and jump to their deaths.

  6. I wonder what it sounds like... by 7-Vodka · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Wow that's prettycool. An internal combustion engine that runs off hydrogen.

    I think I would be an early adopter for this if:

    1. I could make my own hydrogen at home by having a hydrogen-making machine hooked up to my water mains and a bunch of solar cells on my house (or wind nearby or whatever).
    2. An affordable car that either uses this type of engine or an electric motor powered by a fuel cell.
    3. a local mechanic that can fix these

    I don't think I'd even need shell to be on board if I could make the stuff at home.

    Now I wonder what the engine sounds like! It probably growls at wide open throttle in third gear : )

    --

    Liberty.

  7. Once again, the Germans beat us. by Devil · · Score: 1, Interesting

    For all our talk about how hydrogen is the future of cars, I've not yet seen one American car--not even a concept car--running on hydrogen. The Germans really build spectacular cars.

    The Japanese, too; the New Ford Escape Hybrid runs on Toyota's first-generation hybrid motor.

  8. Mazda has a hydrogen-powered rotary by ikekrull · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Mazda's rotary engine is well suited to the combustion of hydrogen, not least because it completely separates the intake, combustion and exhaust stages - with a piston engine there is a lot of potential for catastophic backfire, and high performance without any valve overlap (which would somewhat prevent this) is difficult to acheive.

    The renesis (side-ported intake and exhaust - 'normal' rotaries have peripheral exhaust and often intake ports and intake/exhaust port overlap is employed to maximise performance at high revs, resulting in the characteristic 'brap-brap-brap' pulsing idle of a race or drag rotary engine and incredibly poor fuel economy at low revs) rotary engine doesnt suffer from this problem, allowing high-revs, aggressive induction and exhaust port profiles, along withthe light weight and excellent power-weight ratio rotaries inherently possess.

    The current hybrid engine in the RX-8 only produces about 120hp when operating on hydrogen which isn't exactly stunning, but bear in mind that the original RX-7 produced less than this, while the last model to roll off the production line produced in excess of 280.

    400+ HP is relatively easily acheiveable with proper porting, fueling and turbocharging of the 1.3 litre 13B engine on petrol, and with further development (or even tuning for hydrogen-only operation) it is not too far fetched to imagine the hydrogen-powered rotary performing on par or better than conventional fuels.

    More info can be found:

    http://rotarynews.com/?q=node/view/216

    and a hydrogen--powered RX-8 looks like:

    http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=pi c. php&imagenum=1&carnum=1792

    --
    I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
  9. This thing doesn't run on hydrogen... by cr0sh · · Score: 1, Interesting
    That is what they want you to believe - but the car companies and the oil^H^H^Henergy companies are bamboozling the public, and not letting the public in on the "big secret":

    Hydrogen comes from OIL.

    That's right - you heard it here. The vast majority of the worlds hydrogen is "generated" through catalytic cracking from oil - simply because it is the cheapest and easiest way to get hydrogen (ie, HYDROcarbons, anyone?). Hydrogen-powered vehicles, whether they use fuel cells or ICEs, or something else - won't do jack to lessen the world's dependence on oil. If anything, such vehicles will either keep the status quo moving along, or increase our consumption (because at least for a while, you will have to support gasoline and hydrogen fuel vehicles).

    Throw peak oil (yes, peak oil is REAL - just about every oil and energy company on the planet knows about it and acknowledges it as a fact) into the mix, and you have the makings of BIG PROFIT for those who get into it at the right point.

    Please note that I am not against the use of petroleum or its products - just that I think there are better solutions available for our energy needs (there isn't ONE alternative energy solution - but there are MANY alternative energy solutions which we could be using to make a real solution in total). If we just built our houses properly (monolithic dome earthships?) and got off this kick of "more power, more speed, damn the environment" for our vehicles, we could probably save a bunch and use the alternative solutions we already have. There are many other better things those fossil sources could go to (medicine, chemicals, plastics, etc).

    But, I doubt it will ever happen - and the public is just going to take it up the rear again, because the public is so damn uneducated and ignorant of the truth...

    --
    Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  10. Re:I have a question... by gtoomey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Unfortunately the cheapest method of extracting hydrogen is via processing oil. Electrolysis costs more than cracking petroleum.

  11. Nice looking cars by InsaneCreator · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Car companies keep showing us all theese incredible looking prototypes, but why won't they sell us a car that looks the same? By the time a new car makes it to the salons it looks almost exactly like all the other damn cars you can choose from, and attaching a baboon's but to the rear end is considered to be a bold new design direction. yech.

  12. Re:misses the point of hydrogen by cpuffer_hammer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Years ago on NOVA it was said the the NOx problem could be reduced or eliminated by injecting water to cool the burn. Since injection of liquids is a known tech it should not be hard to do. The only problem is having the water in cylinders when the car is not running. This can be solved by stopping the water injection a few revolutions before the car is turned off.

  13. I'm surprised to be hearing anything about this by Phil+Karn · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I'm a little surprised to be hearing anything about hydrogen cars these days. Hydrogen fueled cars were heavily hyped a few years ago when the automakers were strong-arming the California Air Resources Board (CARB) to drop its near-term mandate for electric vehicles in favor of a promise for a few magical hydrogen-fueled cars some years in the future. The scam worked: CARB rescinded the EV mandate, many working EVs were pulled from their satisfied owners, and that's why you hear so little about hydrogen these days.

    The simple facts are that hydrogen is not a source of energy, but rather an energy carrier, like electricity. And hydrogen is a rather poor energy carrier at that; it's far less efficient than the electric power grid, which already exists and goes almost everywhere. Hydrogen isn't even a good energy storage medium in a car, due to its extremely low density.

    The fact is that there's nothing a hydrogen fuel-cell car can do that isn't already done better, more efficiently and more cheaply by a battery EV. Just when new battery technologies like nickel metal hydride and lithium-ion were starting to prove their worth in EVs, CARB pulls the rug out from under them.

    Call me cynical, but that seems to fit the facts.

  14. Re:Pollution by ifwm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are types of algae that naturally emit hydrogen. Why bother with natural gas when you can just get the goods right away?

  15. Re: misses the point of hydrogen [again] by ifwm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, everything you said is true.

    Now to the part you haven't bothered to learn about. Several types of algae exist in nature that produce hydrogen as a byproduct of photosynthesis.

    In addition, hydrogen can also be produced using biomass.

    Both are renewable, and don't rely on fossil fuels to make hydrogen.

  16. Re:hydrogen dissipates faster by ansible · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Of course, producing hydrogen with solar power is so inefficient, it is incredibly expensive.

    Run some numbers on solar cell efficiency. And then run some numbers on .

    And after that, you just have hydrogen gas. You also have to cool it and compress it to get LH2. This also takes considerable energy, and it is a hassle to transport, because it is need to be very cold. You wouldn't think a few degrees K would make such a difference. But transport/storage of LN2 or LOX is much less expensive than for LH2.

    I truly wish it wasn't the case, but you'll go broke replacing solar cells before you make a profit at this operation.

  17. h to the izzo by I7D · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hydrogen is great because it can make a long-lasting battery. What we need now is more advancement in solar panels (like the recent /. article using spinach). Our cars may not run directly off of them, but solar panels would help a lot with extraction of hydrogen from water.

    --
    Neil is that you? Yeah yeah, it's me... Neil...
  18. The dangers of gas powered cars by Xenna · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In Holland about 5% of all cars on the road (and the ones that get the most mileage) run on Liquid Petrol Gas (LPG). My car is one of them. LPG is used in the rest of Europe as well.

    I have never heard of an exploding gas tank, the tanks are apparently so solid that they crush everything around them but stay intact themselves.

    Forgetting to unplug the nozzle while filling up happens relatively often. There's a special weak spot in the tube that breaks in such cases. Also you have to keep a button on the gas pump depressed for the pump to operate. Release it and the gas flow stops. Driving away without unpluggng is harmless (except to your wallet). I've never heard of accidents with pumps.

    There have been some accidents with LPG delivery trucks that supply the gas stations. I believe there was big one near a camping ground in Spain quite a while ago.

    I can understand driving with a gas tank in your car may seem scary to people who aren't used to it, but we do so without worrying over here.

    Of course, I don't know how Hydrogen compares to LPG for these purposes. That might well be a whole different story.

    X.