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Carter says Florida Voting Still Not Fair
linuxwrangler writes "Ex president Jimmy Carter is claiming that Florida has still not created conditions for a fair election. The Carter Center has monitored over 50 elections worldwide for fairness and says that the absence of uniformity in voting procedures and the lack of a non-partisan election commission sets the stage for a repeat of the 2000 election. That election, overseen by Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris (aka co-chair of the Bush-Cheney state campaign committee), was officially decided by a margin of 537 votes. According to Carter, Florida governor Jeb Bush (aka brother of George W. Bush) has done little to correct the problems found in the 2000 election. In addition, Harris' successor Glenda Hood, (aka an elector for George W. Bush in 2000) recently attempted to disqualify 22,000 African Americans (likely Democrats), but only 61 Hispanics (likely Republicans), as alleged felons."
How could we ever think there can be a fair election if Nader is on the ballot!
"The defense of freedom requires the advance of freedom" - George W Bush
Where it is forbidden (by State Law!) for elections officials to ask about the *citizenship of the voters* beyond the standard form. Residency questions are OK, citizenship questions are not.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
The issue isn't whether Glenda Hood is going to fix the result but that someone so partisan is in that position in the first place.
If Iraq had had an election in which Tariq Aziz was in charge of the election and Saddam Hussein had been elected would anyone believe it had been a fair election? Same thing applies here, the process should be seen to impartial and it isn't.
It's unAmerican. When someone has done their time, their debt to society is repaid, and they should have all their rights back, including the right to vote. If they don't get their right to vote back, then that's effectively an additional punishment. It's the punishment of being a second-class citizen in this country. One thing that justice strives for is a punishment measured to the crime. Removing voting rights permanently is a punishment that is not just, because it is not measured to fit the crime.
It also hurts the rest of us, because we live in a society where some people are not considered full-class citizens, and justice is not served. Unless we constantly strive to make our country MORE equal and MORE just, we will not have been the best country that we can be.
Your tough-guy talk is all very impressive to some people, but we're all better served by some rational arguments here.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Should the people who help run an election campaign also be in charge of vote counting or collection?
Isn't there some conflict of interest there?
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
Posted on 08/25/2004 6:20:16 AM PDT by moonman
ABC News (radio) announced that over 46,000 New York City residents were registered to vote in both their home district and also in the state of Florida. The anouncement mentioned that two-thirds (2/3) are registered Democrats.
009090-89890-
NEW YORK, (UPI) -- Allegations first made by the New York Daily News that residents of New York state may have voted illegally in Florida elections has produced calls for a formal investigation by Florida officials.
A study of computer records in New York and Florida conducted by the Daily News found 46,000 New York residents illegally registered to vote in both states.
The paper's investigation also uncovered the fact that as few as 400 and as many as 1,000 of those illegally registered voted twice in at least one election.
In some cases, people were found to have violated the law by voting twice in as many as seven elections.
"We expect that people will follow the law," said Florida Department of State spokeswoman Alia Faraj. "If there is an indication that people haven't, then the appropriate agencies must look into this matter." -30-
909089-89089080-
A convicted felon is banned from owning a handgun for life in this country. That's a second ammendment right.
Why should voting be treated differently?
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing -- Emo Phillips
In the US electoral theory, a fair and valid election is one in which a sufficiently large number of competent people's opinions or estimates of what the public welfare is and requires are collected, so as to counteract the shortsightedness and biases of mere mortals who, being fewer in number, have less chance of accurately perceiving this. Lately an idea has sprung up that every breathing person of age should vote to make an election valid, but this ideal is not well linked to the idea that a large enough body of people have a better chance of correctly determining the public welfare. It is a very poorly thought through political ideal.
The difference between
Another problem is that felons aren't the only ones being excluded. In the 2000 elections, there were people turned away from the polls because their name was the same as or similar to a convicted felon's, or even because of bad data entry which was never corrected. It's one thing that felons can't vote. It's quite another that law-abiding citizens can't vote because they're black, or their name is similar to someone who has commited a crime. That's just plain wrong.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
Let's see, after his interesting call on the Venezuelan elections (it is legit, said Carter before all of the votes were even certified, and well before all of the interesting information about electronic voting machines programmed by a company owned by Chavez's brother were out in the open), he now wants to call the Florida elections before they happen?
Not a word about the estimated 15000-20000 voters in the FL panhandle (generally a Republican area) who didn't vote after the networks called the election for Gore before the polls closed in the panhandle.
Not a word about the 4.4% error rate (mostly overvotes) in Palm Beach County (controlled by Democrat election officials) vice the 0.4% statewide error rate. Or about the interesting fact that Bush got fewer votes in Palm Beach County than all four Republican congressional candidates combined.
No word about the tens of thousands of New Yorkers (generally Democrat-leaning) also registered in Florida.
Not a word about motor voter issues, or the illegality of even asking for an ID at the polling place in most states.
Not a word about electronic voting machines that don't produce a paper record. Not a word about problems with absentee ballot fraud. Not a word about the interesting character of elections in Chicago.
I think that there are problems with the integrity of votes in the US. But I only see the Democrats getting exercised about it when the issue might play against them. Then, they are vitriolic. But never when the problems help them.
There is room for a dispassionate look at the issue. This is just partisan grandstanding.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
Could you please rename this section to flamebait.slashdot.org?
Thanks.
I hope high gas prices are depriving your children, you fucking dumbass.
I vote we discontinue the Politics category on Slashdot. The end result of this new category has been a venue for flames and nothing else. There are other forums for discussion on these issues; why clutter up a site dedicated to science and technology?
The editors aren't required to cater to anyone's views, yours included. If you don't like it, leave and send Taco or somebody else important an email explaining why you left. If enough people do this, then advertising numbers will go down, and the site will eventually shrivel and die. However, judging by the number of people who hang around here complaining and never leave, that day will probably be far in the future.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
How is this? See my other posts in this discussion for the URL.
But the database of felons supplied by FDLE does not list Hispanic as an ethnic group ''believe it or not,'' said Nicole DeLara, spokeswoman for the secretary of state. ``We have not been able to determine why this wasn't caught. The potential felon database is now retroactively void.''
I've never heard of anyone being mugged by a vote-wielding assailant, have you?
cf. Florida, 2000: Mugging of an entire country by 5 (of 9) vote-wielding assailants known as the "Supremes".
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Let's see, after his interesting call on the Venezuelan elections (it is legit, said Carter before all of the votes were even certified, and well before all of the interesting information about electronic voting machines programmed by a company owned by Chavez's brother were out in the open), he now wants to call the Florida elections before they happen?
If I were to focus on this paragraph, I'm sure I'd be modded "offtopic". Aw, what the heck:
I wouldn't be surprised if Chavez hired some monkeys to play with the votes. As I recall, though, Chavez was nearly ousted in a coup orchestrated by the oil companies not so long ago. The Bush administration was falling all over itself to recognize the coup plotters as the "new government"... only to be red-faced (if not red-handed) when Chavez returned to the scene.
I doubt we're aligned politically, but you seem to know a lot more about the situation than I do... care to expand on the Venezuelan vote, the attempted coup, and possibly how neither side seems be anywhere close to trustworthy?
Hmmm... that last bit sounds familiar. That's why I'm voting Green.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
No, Carter is belly-aching about the non-felons that were not being able to vote, because the Florida Secretary of State decided that they might be fellons or worse - vote Democrat.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
From my point of view - Mrs. Harris followed the letter of the law. It was the State Supreme court that kept on making it up as it went along!
Yeah, well... are you partisan?
Obviously, Jimmy Carter is a Democrat. If being a Democrat entails being so partisan that his comments should be ignored... then you should ignore my comment too. And probably yours as well.
Otherwise, Carter has proven himself to be one of the most honorable and honest people to have ever entered public service. No, I don't think he was necesarily a great president. But he was certainly honest. His credibility is impeccable.
Right?
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Because it allows for the following exploit (which has been seen in the wild, btw)
1) Create law that states a formerly innocuous act is now a crime.
2) Lock up people who commit that act and deny them the ability to change the law by virtue of their guilt.
3) Profit!
Bottom line, if the point of having prisons is to rehabilitate people, then any punishments administered by those prisons should end at some point. And really, don't you know about the electoral college? The presidential vote doesn't count anyway. Who cares if felons can do it or not? Let them have their fun!
This is from the LA.
Four years ago, the top election official, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, was also the co-chair of the Bush-Cheney state campaign committee. The same strong bias has become evident in her successor, Glenda Hood, who was a highly partisan elector for George W. Bush in 2000. Several thousand ballots of African Americans were thrown out on technicalities in 2000, and a fumbling attempt has been made recently to disqualify 22,000 African Americans (likely Democrats), but only 61 Hispanics (likely Republicans), as alleged felons.
Perhaps YOU should read the fucking article before you tell others they haven't.
From the anything to get bush out of office department:
Yet another case of the slashdot editorial bias. It isn't the governors job to take care of these issues. It may make for more sensational headlines to link them in this way but it is a lie and for gods sake the state has just been hit by three hurricanes in a row. Not to mention the articles lack of anything but subjective factoids that do nothing but stir emotion when invoked out of context.
I can't believe this crap is modded Insightful.
Are you even vaguely aware of what Carter has done since he was president? That he's a widely-respected elections monitor? And that he recently won the Nobel Peace Prize for this? We're not talking about some partisan hack like James Carville, here.
And the thing about Katherine Harris (and the FL Supreme Court, too, btw), is that the law wasn't particularly clear or helpful. So human decisions had to be made. And those decisions never went against the partisan interests involved. Never. Call me cynical, but that looks dirty to me.
-Esme
Nice troll.
"It's the punishment of being a second-class citizen in this country."
It's the punishment of being a felon convicted by a jury of his or her peers.
"One thing that justice strives for is a punishment measured to the crime."
The comission of a felony shows a gross indifference to the rights of others (at best), and as such those others (namely the population at large) has the right to take steps to make sure that they can't continue to abuse the rights of others in the voting booth.
"It also hurts the rest of us, because we live in a society where some people are not considered full-class citizens, and justice is not served."
It has, by definition, been served. If you're in jail you may still be able to vote; if you've never been convicted of anything worse than a misdemeanor you can still vote. Only upon conviction by a court of law of a felony are voting privileges revoked.
"It's unAmerican."
No, it's "being held accountable for your own actions."
> The comission of a felony shows a gross indifference to the rights of others
Nonsense. Prisons are full to overflowing with people who went there in order to support the rights of others to control their own thoughts through the use of the chemical supplements of their choice.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
This is actually very telling - even left wingers are essentially admitting that slashdot's politics posts are left-leaning. This is of course in direct contradiction with CmdrTaco's claim that the politics section would be promised fair with story selection.
The editors need to end this failed experiment - it is clear that fairness is not being implemented.
I'm Christian, and I'm fairly conservitave, and I think Bush is a danger to the free world (assuming such a thing exists). So don't assume that the "right-wing Christians" support Bush.
This power grab thing has nothing to do with "right wing Christians", it's all about people who are in power, wanting to stay in power.
When religion and politics get together, it's not because a religious person uses politics to spread his or her views, it's because a political person uses religion to increase his or her power.
Repeat after me: It's all about power. Power. Power! POWER!! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!!!!
I hate it when I make a joke and I get modded "+5 insightful". Mod the stupid comments "funny", not "insightful", pleas
Republicans are bad news, and bad news travels. If you want "balance", get the Democrats to rig an election, lie us into invading a country, exempt rich people from paying taxes, and destroy 200 years of freedom. BTW, since we're talking about politics, save your "Kennedy/Vietnam" stuff for when it matters: finding precedents for Bush's disastrous policies.
--
make install -not war
The problem isn't that felons can or can't vote. It's that people who are likely to vote for Democrats are getting their voting rights taken away, and that people who are likely to vote for Republicans aren't.
No! Wrong! That is HALF of the problem! The other half is the *reality* of voter fraud.
A little history is required to understand the voter disenfranchisement in 2000. Go back to 1998. In that election cycle there was a mayoral race in Miami. The Democratic party did a spectacular job of getting out the vote and won it for their candidate. Unfortunately they did a little TOO good of a job. They got out not just the convicted felon and illegal alien vote, the even got that traditionally Democratic demographic, the deceased-American vote. There were paid vote-brokers, forged signatures, ballot tampering, the whole nine yards. It was so bad that something VERY rare happened. A court overturned the election and installed the other candidate.
This was not the usual low level voter fraud by a small number of overzealous and ethically challenged individuals. This was widespread, organized classic corrupt machine politics, and subsequent state-wide investigation found it wasn't limited to Miami, and not just to that election. Some people had a better voting record in the years since their death than they had during their life.
It is wrong for legitimate voters to be disenfranchised. Having your vote essentially cancelled out by a dead man voting the other way is just as much disenfranchisement. In some ways it is worse since it is only rarely caught. The living disenfranchised voter will raise a stink, assuming the corpse is properly buried it won't - and the voters whose votes were essentially cancelled out never know.
That's a distraction from the main issue:
Why can't convicted felons vote? If they are still citizens they should get to vote.
Maybe someone should ask Bush and Kerry what they think.
Why should alleged felons be disqualified? What next - people with p2p software on their computers not being allowed to vote?
I think the US should stop claiming superlatives for its brand of democracy.
Several points of contention here.
1. The voting machines used in the Venezuelan elections is from a Florida company with no ties to Chavez. There was a local Democratic candidate for Elections Supervisor in the Primary here in Hillsborough (he lost) who is a) runs an anti-Chavez group and b) a systems engineer at Verizon. I talked with him at length about the company in question and their product. They have produced source code for the product and it has all the safeguards that people here regularly complain about Diebold and other machines lack. One of the campaign promises was to implement these same machines in our county. Please cite a source that shows some doubt cast on the legitimacy of the machines used in Venezuela, all of my first hand knowledge is that it was very fair.
2. The Palm Beach County error rate was due to the butterfly ballot. I refuse to sit here and argue about whether or not old people are stupid, numerous experts on both sides of the issue agreed that the ballot used for that election was very confusing and not at all user-friendly. The fact that it was approved by a Democratic Supervisor is really dumb though. Also you shouldn't bring up the Palm Beach error rates without mentioning the thousands of black votes in Gadsden County that were spoiled (1 in 8 counted, pop is 39.7% white). The same system and ballots were used in Leon County (where Tallahassee is) and had a spoilage rate of 1% while the population is 66% white. In 2002 Gadsden County had a new Election Supervisor, using the same system, and only 1 in 500 ballots were spoiled. The governor is now known as "Jeb Crow" in some circles down here.
3. It was the Bush/Cheney 00 campaign that sent down James Baker and a team of lawyers before the recounts were over, before Gore even mentioned involving the courts. The riotous group attempting to stop the recount were GOP operatives flown in.
4. Don't accuse Dems of trying to rig elections when you've got that gerrymandering mess in Texas. Redistricting 3 years after the last one is a pure political play to lock in power. Just because it wasn't illegal, doesn't make it ethical. Note that DeLay is under investigation and 3 of his cohorts have been indicted for violating Texas campaign finance laws. The money was directly tied to the redistricting effort. Not to mention the voter purges here in Florida. The willful disregard for accuracy (90.2% wrong)in those felony purge lists borders on criminal negligence.
5. The Republicans in Florida are the ones who pushed for the ID's at the polling places. They have also been against the motor-voter registrations.
6. Whatever your opinion of Carter's presidency, he is a far more honorable and noble man than the majority of the crowd on this site. He has dedicated his life to helping the less fortunate and spreading peace and democracy in this world. Bringing up issues involving other states when Carter was specifically referring to Florida and then claiming he is partisan because he didn't mention them is disingenuous. I'm sure that Carter could talk you blue about elections and fairness. I'm also sure that he would address every single one of your complaints fairly and honestly, given the chance. Carter simply brought up the issues he felt were most gregarious and resulted in the largest damage to our system, if you'd read the column more carefully, you would have noticed the qualifiers "The most significant of these requirements are".
It seems that your response to Carter is far more partisan than you claim him to be.
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me