PhD's in the Industry?

Taylor Flagg asks: "I'm about to finish up with my bachelor's in Computer Science, and am looking into graduate school options. My advisor is persuading me to go right into the PhD program but I know I don't want to be stuck lecturing for the rest of my life. Are companies in the industry hiring PhDs, and if so, what are their roles and is anything different expected of them (aside from making more cash)?"

Comments

Re:PhD

[Gherald]

I've heard it as MS = "More Shit" but yeah, it's an oldie.

After four years of real schooling, you'd think most graduates would know whether they want 2-4 more years of the same...

I have only one piece of concrete advice, and that is to make up your mind NOW. Don't decide to pick up school again 15 years down the road -- that is a waste of time, resources, and effort. Education is for the young.

Other than that, my only advice is the standard "follow your heart" pitch. Don't continue school unless you seriously enjoy it, or have an equally serious desire for extra cash ;)

enjoying the process

[bcrowell]

A good rule of thumb is that you should only do a PhD if you think you'll enjoy the PhD process for its own sake: working for several years on a really hard problem that nobody else has ever been able to solve. A PhD typically takes 4 to 9 years. (4-5 years is typical in the humanities, where grad students are a financial liability to their departments. 5-7 is more typical for people in the sciences whose research goes well, and 7-9 for people in the sciences who find out that their first project simply didn't work.) You can't possibly justify 4-9 years of extremely hard work on the basis of the (non-academic) job it'll get you, or the increased earning potential. If all you wanted was a fancy job with a high salary, you'd be much better off putting the 4-9 years of extremely intense effort into a job.

Re:PhD

[Garin]

I disagree with the "do it now" statement. Do it when you feel like you *need* to do it, and at no other time.

By the sounds of the original poster's question, I would definitely encourage him/her to NOT go into grad school. If you're not sure that you want to go, then you -don't- want to go, period. Grad school is a huge commitment and a lot of work. If you know deep in your heart that it's where you belong and it's what you have to be doing, you can survive and even enjoy it and feel good about it. Otherwise, it's a major drag and you hate every minute of it.

I'm a grad student right now, and I'm *loving* every (atrociously difficult, mind-bending) minute of it. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, but it's worth it. A couple of my friends are here for the career benefit they perceive, not because they truly want to do it. They are miserable, depressed, and they can't wait to just get out of here.

Do not go now just because you think you will never have the chance again and you don't want to miss it. Wait. If there comes a time in your life when you feel driven to go to grad school, THEN do it and forget all the naysayers. If it never comes, then don't look back.

Funny enough, a good two thirds of my fellow grad students are returning to school after anywhere from 2 to 10 to 30 years of working. Most of us are here for the love of it. A few have returned for career boosts, and they're the most miserable.

Re:phd vs CCIE

[macz]

I think that the comparison between a PhD and a CCIE is like comparing a GED to an MBA. The two are ostensibly related in that they are both acronyms, and there are requirements to obtaining them as a suffix to your last name, but that is about it.

But I have known some worthless PhD's and some pretty smart Cisco Guys, so maybe the comparison is apt.

I just have a bachelor's, these thoughts are way above my pay grade...

Get a Ph.D. if...

[oddman]

Get a PhD. if you love your field. The process is very demanding in just about every way there is to be demanding. You get paid next to nothing, you teach only the course professors don't want to teach and the work is considerably more difficult than anything else you've done in school by orders of magnitude.

Even in a field like mine, Philosophy, where a PhD. is required just to get interviewed for a position getting the degree is incredibly difficult and often tedious. In a field where you can get a good job without one there is little incentive to get a PhD. beyond personal desire.

Succinctly, if someone where to ask you, "Why are you in the doctoral program?" Your first answer should be, "Because I can't imagine myself doing anything else." If that isn't your first answer then you should probably do something else.

Masters degrees can be fun

[Jerf]

I got my Masters degree in computer science because I read the course descriptions and said "I gotta have some of that."

If you aren't drooling over those courses like I was, I can't recommend post-grad work at all.

If you also don't know you want that PhD, but you are drooling over the course descriptions, consider a Masters. My institution offered a course-only Masters program, and I took that, because I looked around and I thought the Masters projects were a joke, and I figured I was better off working on my own. Can't say if I was right yet but it has at least been fun.

Re:It will probably do you more harm than good&

[merdark]

Whoa! Don't listen to this guy. It's obvious that he hasn't the first clue as to what it takes to get a PhD at a good school in a difficult feild such as computer science or mathematics.

PhDs are definately hired, but usually right into a management position. Also, you will end up looking at different type of jobs, usually research related rather than simple a progammer or similar.

Only hiring PhDs:
http://www.research.att.com/areas/stat/rese arch/jo b.html

Again, mostly PhDs only:
http://domino.research.ibm.com/hr/research/ resumes .nsf/USAindex.html?Open&count=2000

Note the mention of 'postdoctoral-researcher' at the bottom of each job description:
http://research.microsoft.com/aboutm sr/jobs/fullti me_positions.aspx

Again, *requiring* PhDs:
http://www.caprion.com/content/careers/bioi nformat ics.html

And I could go on and on. Basically you will be looking at totally different types of jobs. Jobs that the parent can't even get! And yes, they will pay you well. But no, you can't get a job doing basic programming easily. You are over qualified.

Not a good reason to do one.

[GreatDrok]

First off, let me say that I have a PhD. However, I didn't do it straight out of my BSc, I took a couple of years out, did an MSc, took a couple more years and then did my PhD. Even then I was only persuaded to do the PhD because it was clear I was suited to it, something I didn't know when I did my BSc. I think too many people go straight into a PhD from their undergraduate work and these people can often struggle. I have seen a number of students who did well at their BSc but who didn't fit into the PhD style of work.

Is it worth having a PhD? I did mine because I was told by someone I respected that if I didn't do it then I would always be someone's assistant rather than ever get to lead my own research. This is true within academia but is less true in the commercial world. If anything, a PhD can make you less employable because you may be seen as too expensive, too 'brainy' or too much of a threat to the higher ups. If you think about getting into management the MBA people are likely to look down on you as a PhD because they will think you are far too interested in research and less interested in making money. This is a sweeping statement I know but it does come from my personal experience.

So, a PhD is hard work, the effect on your pay and job prospects is likely to be minimal unless you want to stay in academia, and people who don't have one will consider you a threat and you may have to hide the fact that you have it. IMHO.

Ms or PhD?

[den_erpel]

It seems to me that the situatin is a bit different in North America, in Europe, you need a Masters' in order to do a Ph.D. (It's actually a bit more complicated than that, but with the reform, it should be this simple from now on).

Even if you want to stay at the university, you have to consider that a lot has to do with politics and the chance if you get a professorship depends on this.

I would think you need to do a Ms before starting on a Ph.D., just to get the 'practical' and 'theoretical' background required.

You have to consider that, once you have a Ph.D., the expectations in industry are also larger: if you just want to 'score', go right to industry; if you like a challenge, get the degree (challenge 1) and next fulfill the high expectations of your employers... (challenge 2..n).

And most importantly, don't do it for the money (in any case): do it because you are interested in the field and have a passion for it; you like to dig into a problem where little is known of and you don't get to sleep easily unless you figured out the problem... If you have this, you will not mind the pushing around that much and still love what you are doing and work with collegues with the same passion.