Training in a Foreign Technology Boot Camp?

Martin Clarke asks: "I've recently been considering undertaking a technology boot camp to get some more certs under my belt to help with my employability. I've always taught myself, but I feel like I need to get it done. I've came across an interesting option, a very well priced tech boot camp in Dehli from Koenig. Has anyone ever considered something like this? What other unorthodox training options have Slashdot readers tried?"

Comments

In a word

[Anonymous Coward]

No

The training isn't so bad...

[macz]

But the occassional beheading becomes annoying.

Self-study: it's cheaper.

[mind21_98]

I wouldn't get certs; they really don't help you much. Only experience helps you in the long run. But if you do want certs, I would self-study rather than pay for any kind of boot camp, especially one that requires significant travel. It comes out less expensive that way.

Re:Self-study: it's cheaper.

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

I wouldn't get certs; they really don't help you much. Only experience helps you in the long run.

Unfortunatly, this is bullshit. Just troll the want ads. Microsoft certs, good or bad (BAD!) still get jobs. But if you have to get certs, get Cisco certs.

Re:Self-study: it's cheaper.

[Omega1045]

I wouldn't get certs; they really don't help you much.
Disagree: Early in my career they helped me a lot! I can count at least two contracts that I would not have had without my MCSD. With recruiters, certs can really get your foot in the door. It is unfair, as some people with certs but no skills get jobs. But blame the game, not the player!

Only experience helps you in the long run.
Agree: In the long run, you will still need to have the skills and recommendations from former employers. I have several managers from contracts I have been on that have given me references. That helps A TON!

Also, to pay the bills I worked as an MCT Instructor for a while. Many MS classes (and other classes) are pretty decent, but you still need to do a lot of work to get the cert. If you have the money to pay for a boot camp, I would recommend finding a local New Horizons or similar establishment. Many have "Tech Clubs" where you pay a set amount of money, and you can take ANY class for the next year. At the one I worked at it was around $10k. However, you get the cheapy A+ Computer from the A+ class with that. And they included the testing. I knew one guy that got his A+, CCNA and MCSE through the program while working another job. Check the schedule and talk to some students about the place before signing up.

Re:Self-study: it's cheaper.

[Mattcelt]

I have to disagree strongly with this. I just passed my CISSP (Certified Information Systems Security Professional) examination after taking a week-long boot camp from The Training Camp. I might have passed the examination anyway, but the class was a real help in learning the terminology and character of the exam, which was instrumental in passing.

While perhaps I could have gotten the same results studying on my own, it was much easier and more concise to have instructors that not only knew the field, but the nature of the questions on the test. I also got additional knowledge outside of my realm of expertise which will help me tremendously in the future as I continue my infosec work. So the class was worth every penny.

Further, the certification opens doors which might not otherwise be open. The CISSP requires a minimum of four years' technical work in the field before the certification can be applied for. This is not your standard MCSD that any monkey can take. (Apologies to those of you who worked hard to pass the MCSD/MSCE - but IIRC you aren't requird to have any practical experience to get the cert.)

Re:Self-study: it's cheaper or Go Goa.

[Anonymous Coward]

i agree it's better to just learn on your own if saving money is a real concern AND you learn well on your own.

if you do go, i would go to the Goa campus. It's a beach city that a lot of hippies from the US went to in the 60's.

Dehli?

[metlin]

Or perhaps you mean the Indian Capital of New Delhi?

Anyway, I would say just this -- get a degree. A degree is infinitely better than any certifications that you may take. While certifications are nice things to have, a degree speaks a whole lot more.

If you have one, work on a master's part time. Much better than wasting money on these things.

But that's just me. And personally, when I hire, I do not look for either of these -- degrees or certifications -- but rather technical skill and talent. Things like Opensource projects and other kinds of experience plays a bigger role than either of those.

But ofcourse, you may come across PHBs who think otherwise. At which point it becomes a call of judgement.

Re:Dehli?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Yes. See my comments here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=124846&cid=104 67001

Re:Dehli?

[metlin]

Yup, agreed.

Most people forget that shorcuts are short-term positives and long term negatives.

While a PhD may take time, it's worth its weight in gold. However, then again getting into something like a PhD is quite pointless if you are not interested in the subject to begin with.

Re:Dehli?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=124846&cid=104 67001

Re:Dehli?

[TheClarkey]

Thanks for your comments, I've already got my degree. :) I agree with you that hiring based on experience is the best way to go.

However, I'm looking at getting into the contracting market where certs just seem so much more important than a degree. Where I have to get past a number of clueless salesmen acting as recruitment consultants who are desperately trying to find the certs that their clients are wanting.

Re:Dehli?

[Nef]

Oh how I wish there were more people like you in hiring positions. I'm a self taught geek with half a CS degree, 6 years of Naval Nuke power experience and the best I can get job-wise is entry level/call center stuff.

Re:Dehli?

[Glonoinha]

I thought that the Naval Nuke power program was your golden ticket, let you walk into any 3MileIsland power plant (I mean that in a good way - that's the only one I can name off the top of my head) and get started doing whatever Nuke power plant guys do.

Dang, I would like to think it is better than you represent just because I almost went that route.

Re:Dehli?

[metlin]

Well, in that case, certifications would indeed be useful. You could try talking to the contractors and ask them what market is likely to be good, and what not -- usually, they've a pretty good idea of these things.

Like another poster mentioned somewhere, SAP is another area that seems to be forever in need of people. You could try that, and you could get in touch with other contractors, who may be able to help you out in this regard.

And another thing I've noticed in contractor based jobs is that you would need to beef up your resume -- a lot of times, good people with non-jazzed up resumes get rejected. You may want to keep that in mind -- sadly, it's an industry where you would need to sell yourself, if you know what I mean.

Goodluck!

Re:Dehli?

[Nef]

It's supposed to be that way. But the reality is much more harsh than what you'd think. If you want to go into any other field, you may as well not even tell them you were a nuke. Even if you interview with someone who knows what all that entails, they start to question why you didn't want to work in ionizing radiation.

Over-glorified vacation...

[krymsin01]

I guess the question is if you want to go to New Delhi or not. And if you want to pay a lot more money than if you went on vacation...

Thinking about it, if I were a potential employer and you came to me and said: "I got my MSCE (or whatever) cert in New Delhi," the first thing I'd ask you is "Why?"

I can't see a defendable position for that question. 1) You'll be studying the same material that you would be studing in a program in your own country. 2) You could have studied on your own and saved money. 3) You just wasted a lot of money by taking a course in ANOTHER country.

Re:Over-glorified vacation...

[BuishMeister]

Well going to New Delhi or some other cheaper place has an adavatage to taking course in the USA. Getting down to basic economics, the course itself is probably cheaper, so is the rent and living expenses. As for the quality of the course itself, last time I checked the certification exams are standardized so it should not matter which place you take it. I also think that the certificate itself doesn't even say that it was issued in New Dehli. So you don't even have to tell about it to your employer.

Re:Over-glorified vacation...

[metlin]

What's wrong in getting a certification from another place?

Hell, I've gotten my certifications for various things in physics from places across the world -- simply because it gives me an opportunity to travel, and it helps me get another perspective of things.

It's an experience. If anything, you should be glad that the candidate is willing to go to various places, learn, and adapt. Not to mention the familiarity with new places.

Just out of curiosity, _you_ have not given me a reason - why NOT?

It's not like am committing a crime -- I chose to go to another place -- why do you expect me to provide me any justification other than, "simply because I wanted to"?

I know one person who does this

[anticypher]

I met one SAP programmer at a client site who gets all his training in warm, sunny locations. If I didn't know everything already, I'd probably follow his example :-)

He loves to travel, earns enough from each SAP contract to take a few months off, and spends part of his travel learning "The Next Great Thing". I think he started as a DB2 expert, then went through the whole Oracle training series in places like Bangkok and Kuala Lumpur. He calculates the cost against things like local cost of living, exchange rates, and vacation possibilities. He double checks the course is offered in English, rather than the local language, often the courses have American or Kiwi instructors. He also talks to useless lumps of s^W^W^W^Wrecruiters about where the market is going and which skillset pays the best to decide what courses to take.

He had one example from when he was working in Colorado. To take the two or three necessary Oracle training courses local to Colorado, at US$3000-US$5000 per course, he could buy a ticket to Kuala Lumpur and take the courses at the equivalent of US$400, and still come out ahead. He spent a week in some tropical beach hut in the region to get over his jetlag, then 3 or 4 hectic weeks at the Oracle HQ in KL using the exact same materials and computers. Afterwards he had all the training on a specific product for his next contract, and a great tan.

If you do this, you don't have to mention where you got your certificate, but if it comes out, then put a positive spin on it. "Yes, I picked up that certificate on my most recent around the world trip, while scouting possible lucrative contracts downunda. But your company's project really caught my attention bla bla bullshit bla..." At the very least, some time spent in a foreign country learning new job skills will also open your mind quite a bit more than most 'merkins. Yeah, that's it, its a learning experience.

the AC

Re:I know one person who does this

[TheClarkey]

Thanks for your feedback. I was aware that it was going to be much cheaper to do the boot camp India (thats why I'm considering it in the first place). However, I hadn't considered that a potential employer might react negatively to where I got my training. Good spin on it though.

Re:I know one person who does this

[anticypher]

Any decent employer just wants good skills, and shouldn't care where you picked them up. Consider employer reaction as a litmus test for whether you want to work there or not. I don't think my contractor friend ever had a problem, but he's worked on every continent except Antarctica. Certainly he is in a very high demand market, with pitifully few qualified workers. I'm nowhere near the DB/SAP field, and I get asked about it a few times each year from headhunters.

the AC
Putting spin on bad news for over 20 years

Re:I know one person who does this

[Glonoinha]

Where do you plan on working?
If you plan on working in India, it is probably a good plan.

After the last three completely fuxored projects outsourced from my department alone - if someone came to an interview proudly announcing that he was trained in India I would show him to the door with a polite 'don't call us / we'll call you.'

No offense intended, but the corporate focus is slowly shifting back from 'absolutely cheapest' to 'doesn't suck'. Thank God.

Re:I know one person who does this

[hughk]

Agreed, a friend has done this (well, Oracle and Sun Admin courses) in Australia. It cost him about 30% less than in western Europe. Another friend did this in Russia where he saved around 75% on some MS courses (and the course was in English). He was already living there so the visa wasn't a problem.

Personally, I think going to somewhere even more exotic like India, Malaysia or Thailand for certification would be great. The price is low and the opportunities for relaxation before or after the course are much better as you point out.

The real value of certification may be mixed, but it certainly does open doors and can allow you to move into a new field.

Not new...

[sonamchauhan]

As this BBC story shows this is not really new...
Pensioner eyes up India treatment

A British pensioner frustrated by the long waiting list for a cataract operation on the National Health Service flew to India for 20 minutes of eye surgery.

The pensioner did run the risk of post-operative complications in a backward (compared to his country) foreign country. However, he probably got very good care -- several Indian private medical facilities are absolutely top-notch. (Sadly, public medical facilities are pathetic -- the majority of Indians would be truly blessed to have the NHS or medicare equivalent in India.) While you don't run the same degree of risk he did, if you go, be careful about food and drink... a 3-star hotel is pretty basic there. Also, Indian accents _may_ be a bit difficult for you to understand and the degree of skill in conversational English varies widely. (Perhaps talk to the instructor on the phone before signing up?) Also the price is a bit expensive for India. A google search shows other cheaper options: http://www.mcsecamp.com/. There's no question about bang for the buck in India though -- you may well find a very skilled instructor and excellent lab facilities. Or you may not. That's the risk - there can be more unknowns than where you come from.

I don't have an MCSE, but wouldn't most employers show interest in the certificate, rather than where you gave the exam or which organization helped prepared you for it? Like the pensioner with cleared-up vison, it's the end-result that's important.

Also, Delhi is a bit of a boorish city. For example, unescorted foreign females in Delhi can get lots of unwelcome male attention. Shimla is much better.

Re:Not new...

[metlin]

Dude, we all know that Shimla is much better for other reasons. ;-)

Re:Not new...

[sonamchauhan]

For smoking cannabis?

Don't destroy yourself smoking dope. And if that attracts you to the Shimla/Manali area, don't come.

Yes, it does grows wild in the mountains. But wise people don't ingest it. They only use the leaves as a skin rub when you have a rash -- it acts as a local anaesthetic, and may have other good medical properties when applied like that.

Re:Not new...

[metlin]

I meant that as a funny comment, but I *am* (originally) from India. And well, Shimla is a nice place but that helps too.

*shrug*

#begin rant

Don't destroy yourself smoking dope.

Well, that's true for just about everything isn't it? Alchohol, smoking, even coffee. But that's a very generic statement to make. Smoking dope != destroying yourselves, and I'm sure you're aware of quite a few counter-examples to your point.

Besides, generalizing marijuana under the rest of the dope is not quite fair -- there is a reason it is legal in some countries. Not to mention that even Hinduism and several ancient texts mention people smoking pot (hell, bhang is still taken in sweets during certain festivals).

Maybe I'll show you a couple of relevant points from Wikipedia on Cannabis -

No fatal overdose due to cannabis use has ever been recorded in humans.

Although it may become habitual, the use of cannabis does not result in physical dependence.

There is little decisive scientific evidence about long-term psychological, neurological, and cognitive effects of cannabis use. Many old studies which purported to demonstrate such effects were deeply flawed, with strong bias and poor methodology.

It's got far more positives than negatives -- it would help if people did not have preconceived notions on Cannabis being evil yada yada yada :-/

#end rant

Re:Not new...

[sonamchauhan]

Grow up child. Wikipedia isn't the fountain of all knowledge.

No fatal overdose due to cannabis use has ever been recorded in humans.
Except for a few who choked on their own vomit... and then there are the psychological and medical problems caused by this drug:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library /studie s/hlords/15105.htm#n14
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Ma rijBroch/parentpg13-14N. html

I know people who've used it for differing amounts of time, and _all_ of them show differing degrees of damage: from general dim-wittedness, to shaking hands. To top all this is the social cost.

> I meant that as a funny comment, but I *am* (originally) from India.
> And well, Shimla is a nice place but that helps

And my family _is_ from Shimla. So I say this as a stakeholder: if dope is one of the things attracting you there, stay away!

Re:Not new...

[Quixote]

I *am* (originally) from India

Then you would know that "Sonam" is more probably a girl's name... ;-)

Re:Not new...

[metlin]

Well, *most* probably, but not necessarily ;) Know what I mean? Neither do I.

Re:Not new...

[metlin]

We could go on and on about this, but I'll just say this - the medical community in general is quite biased against the way research is often presented in this particular area.

From the same page you linked in the first article, they contradict themselves in the sections 4.23 and 4.24. FYI, speaking from personal experience, there _is_ no withdrawal symptoms. And in the cases where people choked on your own vomit, they were most likely under the influence of either alchohol or other chemicals.

And the second article still does not say anything conclusive -

While all of the long-term effects of marijuana use are not yet known...

t is hard to find out whether marijuana alone causes cancer because many people who smoke marijuana also smoke cigarettes and use other drugs...

It is not certain whether marijuana damages the immune system of people...

People who smoke marijuana regularly may develop many of the same breathing problems that tobacco smokers have...

Doctors advise pregnant women not to use any drugs because they might harm the growing fetus...

I do not see *anything* that says, "Cannabis has been conclusively known to cause Foo" - hmm, sounds more like carefully worded propaganda than anything else, to me.


I know people who've used it for differing amounts of time, and _all_ of them show differing degrees of damage: from general dim-wittedness, to shaking hands. To top all this is the social cost.


Funny, I know people who've used it for differing amounts of time, and some of them also happen to have won such things as the Nobel Prize. I think between that and shaky hands, they'd choose shaky hands any day. I do agree that Marijuana may cause motor problems, but then again so does coffee.

*shrug*

But then ofcourse, this is more of an opinion based argument than anything else, so we both could go on ad infinitum :-)

And my family _is_ from Shimla. So I say this as a stakeholder: if dope is one of the things attracting you there, stay away!

I used to live in Jammu. More than anything it's the weather that attracts me to that part of India, in generla. But lately, it's quite sad that tourism and other problems have destroyed the place :-/

Re:Not new...

[metlin]

Yay!

I seem to have found a Slashdot bug.

Foo bar.

Something

Something more


Is this still Italic? Yup it is.

Strange, the following code causes Slashcode to get foobared -

<em><li>Something
<li>Something more
</em>

Re:Not new...

[metlin]

Jamie, you're right -- it does seem to be a Moz. renderer bug rather than a Slashcode one.

It seems to render fine on MSIE 6.0, however both Moz. 1.7.3 and Firefox 1.0 seem to freak out.

Should probably submit it to Bugzilla sometime.

Re:Not new...

[sonamchauhan]

> I'll just say this - the medical community in general
> is quite biased against the way research is often presented in this particular area.
Your allegations of bias cannot discount the good hard research done on the damaging effects of cannabis.

> they contradict themselves in the sections 4.23 and 4.24.
Rather it's wishful thinking on your part. In 4.24 they quote an earlier report about mild withdrawal symptoms, but then say that the evidence makes the conclusion uncertain:
This has provided the first real evidence for physical dependence and withdrawal symptoms in animals (QQ 308-310). ...
Professor Ashton indicated that she felt cannabis to be potentially addictive, and compared the withdrawal symptoms--tremor, restlessness and insomnia--to those experienced by users of alcohol, sleeping pills or tranquillisers. She had talked to students with quite severe cannabis withdrawal problems (Q 73).

> And the second article still does not say anything conclusive -
Did you read the references they provide. For instance, a paper shows harm to babies _after_ they are born, if their mothers smoke marijuana _during_ pregnancy:
Cornelius, M. D.; Taylor, P. M.; Geva. D.; and Day, N. L. Prenatal tobacco and marijuana use among adolescents: effects on offspring gestational age, growth, and morphology. Pediatrics, 95: 738-743, 1995.

One big distinction between alcohol and coffee v/s cannabis is while all affect behavior, cannabis alone is a phychedelic drug. It can inflict permanent phychological damage the first time they use it.

I have seen this first hand - a close family member had it the first time, and started hallucinations so fearful, he locked himself in a bathroom and could have harmed himself. Fortunately he didn't, and he never consumed it again. However, not everyone is this lucky -- my pothead friend (the one with the shaking hands) told me about someone whose first trip left him shattered for life... i.e. he mentally unravelled and his life went downstream from there.

I am not defending tobacco, but perhaps that is why Governments ban pot, but don't ban tobacco outright.

Another big distinction between, say wine, and pot, is that while a glass of wine a day is shown to improve health, there are precisely _zero_ beneficial health effects of pot -- instead the damage starts piling up from day 1. The longer you take it, the more the damage. When you know people who've smoked pot for decades like I do, you'll appreciate this point better. There's a reason for the term "pothead".

> FYI, speaking from personal experience, there _is_ no withdrawal symptoms.
We're not talking about your (hopefully minimal) use of pot. Many people have been addicted to it. Both the first and second links present evidence for that.

The fact you could quit with little problems makes no difference to the rest of society. To draw an analogy: some Englishmen probably 'enjoyed opiates responsibly' in the 19th century. But it was still wrong for the English to export opium to China - opium addiction devastated China.

> And in the cases where people choked on your own vomit,
> they were most likely under the influence of
> either alchohol or other chemicals.

No, read the first paper - it was cannabis alone they consumed:
Official statistics record two deaths involving cannabis (and no other drug) in 1993, two in 1994 and one in 1995 (HC WA 533, 21 January 1998); but these were due to inhalation of vomit.

There are many many good reasons why pot and other narcotics are illegal in many countries - Indian and the US included. These laws are made for out protection.

Re:Not new...

[sonamchauhan]

You right, it can be both in North India where my family is from. :)

I'm a guy.

Because it is fscking cheaper Sherlock.

[jotaeleemeese]

Thankfully you are not my potential employer, for people acostumed to jump accross continents the place where a certification was confered has little importance.

Certifications are pretty much the same everywhere (that is why they are backed up by global companies), I have taken them in Asia, Latin America, the US and Europe.

Your comment is frankly childish.

Re:Because it is fscking cheaper Sherlock.

[krymsin01]

Exactly. Certifications are pretty much the same anywhere. It makes no sense to leave the country to get one, UNLESS the asker wants to go to New Delhi anyway. I don't think the fact that it was recieved in a foreign country will add any weight to the certification. And if the poster is used to jumping around the world, I doubt he'd be asking Slashdot if he should be making this trip or not.

At least somebody sees the point.

[jotaeleemeese]

Because several other comments just plain suck.

I don't see why you should hide the place where you got your certs, any place is as good as any other, and good employers know that.

I hear some really neat programs are available

[way2trivial]

in North Korea