Libertarian Badnarik an Election Spoiler?

Mr. Slippery writes "The New York Sun points out that Libertarian Party candidate Michael Badnarik could tip the balance in this year's presidental election, like Ralph Nader is accused of having done in 2000. Bush's policies may be driving some traditional conservative Republican voters into the Libertarian camp. Rasmussen polls have put him as high as 5% in New Mexico and 3% in Nevada, which could make a difference in which major party candidate takes those states."

Comments

Libertarians Draw from Democrats, too.

[mlmitton]

It's generally assumed that Libertarians draw from Republicans, but this isn't really true--I think they draw about 50-50. Libertarians have the small government philosophy associated with Republicans (although Bush has been anything but 'small governmetn'), but they also have the social liberties that are associated with Democrats (Who thinks the Libertarians want a Constitutional amendment to prohibit gay marriage?) So unlike Nader and the Greens, the Libertarians draw from both parties. They might have 5% of the vote in NM, but that doesn't mean they'll have any effect on the outcome of the election.

Re:Libertarians Draw from Democrats, too.

[overunderunderdone]

Most Democrats are strong believers in civil liberty-- you are free to do whatever you want, as long as you don't infringe upon the rights of others

No... they are strong believers in SOME civil liberties almost exclusively limited to the area of sex at this point. You can do whatever you want as long as it's not smoking, owning a gun, saying something "insensitive", doing whatever you want with and on your own property, keeping your own income, associating, or NOT, with whomever you want for whatever reasons you want, taking risks with your health, educating your own children, etc. etc. etc.

A well-designed government can be used to promote equality for all people....

("business" libertarians) could care less if... a business pays white workers more then black workers

This is exactly the difference between libertarians and Democrats. That you use it as an example of something you think contradicts libertarianism shows your fundamental misunderstanding of what they believe. Libertarians place the highest value on liberty, Democrats place it on equality or perhaps "fairness". The two are NOT the same at all and are in fact VERY OFTEN in conflict. Your (sadly, not so) hypothetical is a perfect example of the difference. The arrangement between this employer and his black employees is one arrived at by the consent of both in liberty... A libertarian can think that employer a bad man, may personally shun him, may even organize a boycott of his business. A libertarian would likely think this man would eventually harm his own busines and be supplanted by another company that will properly values labor. A libertarian would point out that institutional racism ultimately REQUIRES government enforcement because of this truth. The one thing a libertarian would NOT do is advocate government action to FORCE that man to do something with his own money that he didn't want to do of his own free will.

Your example is at one extreme where even some libertarians today may see the case for government action. The problem with your argument is that Democrats see such justifiable violations of peoples liberty *everywhere*. Laws, upon laws, upon laws in almost every sphere of human activity, exercised by the most centralized government body available. Laws dictating when and where I can build a house, earn a living, employ other people, what I MUST pay for insurance against future calamity etc. etc. etc. All of them with excellent justification for why following them will make me and others happier, healthier, wiser... it's just that it's not my choice.

I belive that all people have an equal right to the basics -- food, shelter, health, happyness, love, others

The problem with these "rights" is that they are not rights I carry in myself but OBLIGATIONS that must be imposed upon someone else. I could argue that I have a RIGHT to grow, or earn my own food... but to have a RIGHT to food itself government must FORCE someone else to give it to me, same with shelter, health, love etc.

Let me point out that I am NOT a libertarian. I'm perfectly OK with and approve many of these laws and think that government has some broader responsibilities beyond what a true libertarian would agree with. I do however understand the philosophy and can see that you don't... that is why you think (wrongly) that there is a large body of libertarians within the Democratic party that may bolt to the Libertarian candidate. Unless of course you think there is a large body of Democrats that would find the logic above regarding racial hiring practices perfectly sound, I rather doubt it.

This reflects the east-west "Republican" dichotomy

[j. andrew rogers]

It has long been a truism that there is a geographical philosophical split between those areas east of the Rockies exclusive and that west of the Rockies inclusive. Right now, this is mostly evident within the Republican party.

West of the Rockies, and in the mountain West in particular, the core political ideology of the region tends to revolve around a small-government, non-interference, live-and-let-live perspective -- real believers in rugged individualism. There are many historical reasons as to why this is that go back a century or two. While the people that live there are often conservative as individuals, they generally are not socially conservative in that they try and legislate the behaviors of society. A built-in distrust of government is stronger than their desire to control what other people do. East of the Rockies, big government social conservatism is deeply embedded in the culture.

Libertarians and similar have long held relatively strong positions in the mountain West due to the fact that Eastern conservatives often control conservative politics, primarily because of population differences. People like Bush reflect only the conservative issues that are unique to Eastern conservatives while not reflecting the issues shared by Eastern and Western conservatives. When more extreme examples of this come down the road in the Republican party, it tends to lead to defections to the Libertarian party out West. It is an old political and ideological tug-of-war.

In fact, if you look at the core philosophical components of Western conservatism, it is essentially libertarian. Which is why there are far fewer restrictions on what you can do and what you can own in the "conservative" mountain West than in "liberal" states, ironically. Nevada makes California look like a socially conservative police state by comparison if you actually compare laws, and they are next door.

Re:Can you hear me now?

[wibs]

As far as I can tell, Bush is a democrat who is pro life.

I tried to come up with something witty to respond to this, like saying Nader is a republican who is pro environment, but nothing is really that funny because the idea of Bush being is a democrat is just so absurd. If that were even slightly true this country wouldn't be anywhere near as polarized as it is now.

The Irony

[HunahpuMonkey]

I am one of those the article it talking about. I tend to lean conservative, but I've been totally turned off by Bush. In fact, I made the decision early on not to give my vote to Bush.

So now what? Do I vote for Kerry? Well, that is no better. That leaves me with Badnarik.

What people don't realize, though, is that Badnarik will not cost Bush the election. Bush already lost my vote. My choice is only between Kerry and Badnarik. That is the irony of the whole thing. Do I vote for a liberal or a libertarian, even though I might lean conservative?

It is an odd election. That is for sure.

This just in: MICHAEL BADNARIK ARRESTED

[siriuskase]

http://badnarik.org/newsfromthetrail.php?p=1346 and http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/n ews/nation/9872659.htm