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Storm Brewing over Microsoft on the Horizon?

SexyFingers writes "Robert X. Cringely, of I, Cringely discusses one of the last anti-trust lawsuit beleaguering Microsoft. It seems like Microsoft is looking bad on these bouts... words like, lie, dissemble, ignores were applied to Microsoft."

28 of 310 comments (clear)

  1. Nothing will change. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They'll worm their way out of it somehow, and after any publicity this generates dies down, they'll go right back to viciously fucking competitors, customers and business partners alike.

    1. Re:Nothing will change. by slavetrade55 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, if the customers are being fucked, they should stop buying MS stuff. And if their business partners are being fucked, then they should stop being partners with Microsoft. And as for competitors, which one, exactly makes a better operating system for x86 machines that normal human beings would want to use? And which one makes (ever made) a better office suite? Who makes a better media player? Answer: Nobody (Well, quicktime runs fairly well on my mac). That *does not* mean MS stuff is grandly spectacular, it just means their competitors are more litigious than they are innovative.

      Oh, and someone will now say how the competitors remark meant that MS is anticompetitive, using their monopoly to blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda. "OH NO! MS is selling windows for cheap to vendors who bundle it with their PCs! That makes them cheaper for customers to buy and so they only buy windows PCs!! *AND* they package a (crappy) web browser with the OS!" As Jim Ross might say, "Damn their black souls!"

      Firefox is a good example of how if a competitive product is released that people actually have a good reason to use, it will be adopted, even by people without a CS degree. Linux is coming along nicely too, but is definitely not ready for mom's desktop.

      One thing I do know is my powerbook has been giving me wet dreams, and MS stormtroopers aren't banging down my door.

    2. Re:Nothing will change. by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Insightful
      And as for competitors, which one, exactly makes a better operating system for x86 machines that normal human beings would want to use?

      BeOS. Except it doesn't exist any more because Microsoft abused it's monopoly to stop PC manufacturers from offering dual boot PCs. That's a cse in point.

      Who makes a better media player?

      Apple. The combination of iTunes and Quicktime.

      That *does not* mean MS stuff is grandly spectacular, it just means their competitors are more litigious than they are innovative.

      Not true. It ignores all the monopoly abuse that Microsoft indulged in to get where it is.

      Firefox is a good example of how if a competitive product is released that people actually have a good reason to use, it will be adopted, even by people without a CS degree.

      No. It's evidence that a no cost application is something that Microsoft can't cross subsidize to undercut. Opera has been better than IE for years, but costs money, or needs adware.

      Be happy with your PowerBook, as I am with my Mac. But realise that the superiority of the Mac platform hasn't stopped it from dwindling to 2% of the market. You aren't going to claim that is lack of innovation too, surely?

    3. Re:Nothing will change. by Brian+Kendig · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That *does not* mean MS stuff is grandly spectacular, it just means their competitors are more litigious than they are innovative.

      How would you compete against Microsoft?

      No, really - how would you compete? Say you DO have something that's more terrifically innovative than anything Microsoft offers. And say you're an American following the American dream of trying to capitalize on a great idea and become rich, while meanwhile Microsoft has near-infinite reserves of cash and manpower and lawyers to throw against you if they see you have something which might be profitable to them.

      How do you parlay your great idea into a successful business before Microsoft copies your idea, gives it away free with Windows, and chokes off the cash coming into your company? And you get extra points if you can do this without being "litigious."

      Really - tell me - I want to know.

    4. Re:Nothing will change. by slavetrade55 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      See, here is where you and I will never see eye to eye. It doesn't bug me that MS offers a web browser with their OS. If you are going to try to base a business plan on selling a webbrowser, something that you get for free in the dominant OS, then you'd better friggin make sure people know it's better. Yes, MS has an advantage because they have a popular operating system. So, why doesn't opera make a popular operating system? Why don't they release "Opera Linux" and bundle it there? And if it's so super wicked bad cool, advertise and tell people. I also said I've never seen Opera on a store shelf. How is that Microsoft's fault?

      Here's the primary problem. The stuff that is bundled with windows is good enough for most people out of the box. There are superior products out there, but if people are not willing to buy them on the basis of their superiority then Microsoft cannot, and should not be blamed. I bought a mac because I wanted something better. I got it, and I'm happy. I will sing its praises, but if windows is still "good enough" for people, no amount of convincing is going to work. MS is not hurting consumer choice. The consumers have choices, they just choose microsoft because it's what they're accustomed to.

    5. Re:Nothing will change. by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You don't understand the concept that abuse of monopolies is a problem. If you don't understand that, none of the details will make sense to you either. Go back to the Sherman act. Go back to monopolies of the past, and find out why they are a problem. Find out why the Sherman act was invented.

      When you say customers have choice, you lose all credibility.

    6. Re:Nothing will change. by Qzukk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The stuff that is bundled with windows is good enough for most people out of the box.

      The stuff that is bundled with windows is bundled with windows because Microsoft said so, and that was the problem. No amount of desire, fame, or money would have allowed Dell to install Opera (or Netscape, in the specific case of the original lawsuits) on a Windows pc it was selling, thanks to Microsoft's abuse of its monopoly position.

      You say "Opera should make their own OS", but thats not the same. If a Chevy dealer wants to offer a TV with the purchase of a new car, should the dealer have to make their own cars? Their own TVs?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    7. Re:Nothing will change. by jrp2 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I never understood why cross subsidization was a problem.

      Cross-subsidization is one of the core items of anti-trust regulations, as it is used to maintain monopolies and screw the consumer.

      Let's go back in history to the 1950s. Standard Oil (split up into Amooco, Exxon, and many others long ago) owned the gas station market in the US. If you were foolish enough to open a gas station near a Standard Oil station they would reduce their prices to below cost until you went out of business, then raise them again and rip the customers off. They could afford to do that, and ended up with little competition.

      Go back another 40-50 years or so. Before refrigerators there were ice boxes. You got ice delivered to keep your beer (and other food) cold. There were ice trusts that owned the ice delivery market. If you tried to compete, same thing, they would price you out (or send Bubba and Louie to take care of you physically, things were rougher then). As soon as you were gone, prices went back up. Again, competition eliminated, so carte blance to screw the customer as they have no viable alternative, the competition has been squashed.

      This is all the same now with Microsoft. You try to compete, they squeeze you out of the market in one way or another. The big pie is at risk, so they take a loss in that little area until you are dead and they dominate. They just use different tactics. Next thing you know, you are locked into a $300 OS.

      Take Wordperfect. Once they squashed them (arguably with a better product in this case) they dumped the documented RTF format, and used the ever changing, proprietary, doc format. They could get away with a proprietary format as they ruled the roost. Problem is, competition is essentially locked out due to format issues.

      Anyway, cross-subsidization is evil. The big guys use this to crush competition wherever it rears up. End result, few can compete, the monopolist remains the owner and screws their customers. This is why monopolies are split up or regulated. To remove this ability to screw the consumer by crushing competition. It is at the core of any capitalist system, to keep things in check.

      --
      The only athletic sport I ever mastered was backgammon - Douglas William Jerrold
    8. Re:Nothing will change. by mrbcs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The main problem with Microsoft is that they have also locked in the file formats. It's absurd that a closed, proprietary format should become the defacto standard. They use this to force upgrades that people don't need and keep the competition out of the marketplace. Yes Adobe has pdf, but many programs can also make pdf files. The .doc and .xls should have been made open in the DOJ trials. They did nothing, and nothing will change until the viruses and spyware hit critical mass... then maybe people will try alternatives.

      --
      I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-idiot.
    9. Re:Nothing will change. by krunk7 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      1. It's fairly cheap
      2. It's well supported
      3. There's lots of software for windows
      4. There's a lot of hardware compatibility
      5. It's good enough for most people, despite obvious flaws

      I think you forgot a few:
      6. It's bundled with damn near every OEM pc made.
      7. OEM's are required to purchase a windows license for every cpu sold as a result of Microsoft extortion tactics.

      Combine that with the fact that 1, 2, 3, and 4 are a direct consequence of my 6 and 7 and you may begin to understand the meaning of monoply. . . probably not though.

    10. Re:Nothing will change. by vsprintf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are there any grandmothers out there who said, "Oh, I'd rather use Firefox than IE"?

      There are some grandmothers out there who wrote programs before MicroSoft was incorporated. Yes, my mother, the grandmother of my child, knows that IE is a bad thing. Stop being so sexist and ageist. Who do you think invented the systems you're using today?

  2. A married man's life by Xpilot · · Score: 5, Funny

    The kid is as smart as his mother and twice as smart as me.

    He just admitted that his wife is twice as smart as he is. She must read his column.

    --
    "Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
  3. Isn't this illegal? by peawee03 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Wouldn't normally evidence that suggests that MS is doing naughty things (manipulation of evidence, etc.) invite a DoJ probe or something to see what exactly they're up to?

    Or are actions like that limited to smaller companies that don't have the money to move to make problems "go away"?

    --
    I wish I could write clever and witty sigs.
    1. Re:Isn't this illegal? by phillymjs · · Score: 4, Informative

      In case you've forgotten he, or at least his wife, owns one.

      Wrong.

      ~Philly

    2. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Funny
      In case you've forgotten he, or at least his wife, owns one.

      Well, if I the choice is between having the president in the pocket of Big Oil vs. in the pocket of Big Ketchup, I suppose that I would pick the latter. I guess I just really don't care that much if the administration sets our National Condiment Policy in closed-door meetings with industry insiders.

    3. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Informative

      [sigh] The DoJ under Clinton aggressively pursued the Microsoft anti-trust case and was close to asking the courts for a breakup -- which they would almost certainly have received -- when Clinton left office. The DoJ under Bush walked away from a clear win and let Microsoft dictate the terms of a settlement that accomplished nothing. You can argue all day about corruption and corporate control of government, but in this particular case there was a clear difference between administrations, and to claim otherwise is to deny reality.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  4. Re:Finally by korba · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not for the first time, and not for the last time. It's all about exchanging. They're rich enough to be sued over and over.

  5. Smoke out the bastards by CaptainZapp · · Score: 5, Funny
    Great! Finally the Justice department has all the ammunition it ever wanted.

    I'm sure that Mr. Ashcroft will haul Mr. Ballmers ass in at once and the commander in chief will withdraw 10000 troups from Iraq, for the sole purpose of surrounding the Microsof campus and arrest everybody in sight!

    All property including cash assets will be seized and distributed to education and social security, since Mr. Cheeney finally sees the wrongs of his fiduciary irresponsibilities quite drastically and sees the light.

    Mr. Ashcroft will set all steps in motion right after finishing his doobie in a white house crapper stall.

    Just wait and see; it oughta be mighty entertaining.

    --
    ich bin der musikant

    mit taschenrechner in der hand

    kraftwerk

  6. Re:Bad Day by kramer · · Score: 4, Funny

    You know, if they were running exchange server I can actually understand the loss of a signifigant number of e-mails.

    Who would have thought that the shitty nature of their software might actually end up being Microsoft's saving grace?

  7. Sounds like a true story to me. by synq · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the way this article describes the actions taken by Microsoft in court were true.

    If Microsoft really 'plain lied' to the DoJ in the antitrust case, they might be 'really' convicted after all.

    --
    sig not found
  8. words like, lie, dissemble, ignores were applied.. by leav · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "words like, lie, dissemble, ignores were applied to Microsoft."

    so what?

    those words have been applied to any other major corporation in the world.

    in fact, those words are almost an synonym for corporate america.

    --
    I own a pump action golf ball cannon. I made it myself.
  9. Will it matter? by nurb432 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even if its proven they lied/committed perjury.. I don't think its going to really matter much.

    The government already has proven they aren't interested in doing the job that was needed, and gave Microsoft a 'pass'.

    Sure they might pull out some token fine to make the people feel better, but it wont amount to anything more then a blip on the books...

    Unlike ATT, when they were attacked, Microsoft has managed to take control of the situation and will in the end, win, regardless of the outcome.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  10. Why government DOESN'T keep emails.... by i_want_you_to_throw_ · · Score: 5, Informative

    I contract for a branch of the military and they have a policy NOT to keep emails after a certain period of time.

    Why? The Freedom of Information Act. People are always filing them (damn you! Damn your FOIA rights!) and they use that time limit as more of a defense for themselves because in the words of legal, sometimes you don't want this stuff coming up.

    Given who they are, you'll understand.

  11. Re:Ergh by caino59 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Longhorn won't be released until Linux has reached a reasonable maturity level on the Desktop and MS has had a chance to carry over the features it deems worthy...

    comspiracy...yea, i'm not really serious about it....but it does make you wonder.

  12. Odd isn't it... by Cylix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If this were Joe nobody, they would come and take the relevant hardware from him. If this were Small Business Nobody... they would still take their equipment away from them.

    However, because they are mega-huge corp... they ask for the information.

    It's silly to think they are going to make it easy to screw themselves.

    --
    "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
  13. Pretty darn blunt, as such one of his best columns by fatphil · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In theory, being from the kind of technical background that I am, I ought to fawn over every column, but, to be honest, I find his usual statements to be a bit feeble, a gentle puff, with no real gusto. He does pull his punches.

    Normally.

    However, this one has broken that mould. There were no punches pulled, and he completely nailed his colours to the mast. Good on him.

    However, I'd be tempted to say that he's even made himself a target of Microsoft lawyers, as he has made allegations which could be, if false, be taken as libelous (or otherwise defamatory). (Not that I believe they are false.)

    Will the posse of lethal attack-lawyers be set on him for it? Or will MS just hope it gets forgotten about as quickly as possible?

    FP.

    --
    Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  14. Ummm, they did. by khasim · · Score: 4, Informative

    Recall the video tape of how bad Windows was after most of the IE functionality had been disabled? It was submitted as an actual video tape of an actual experiment.

    But somethings didn't seem right on the tape. Icons were changing between screenshots. But that's okay, because Microsoft just cut out some of the boring bits, but the tape is really a tape of an actual experiment.

    But then it turns out that the machines are completely wrong. Well, Microsoft said it was only a dramatization of an actual experiment.

    So the judge said Microsoft could do the experiment over, but that the DoJ could watch it.

    Microsoft had problems re-doing the experiment because the Microsoft engineers could not get a reliable Internet connection from the hotel room.

    So, the judge finds Microsoft guilty and a monopoly, appeals, etc, new administration, case dropped.

  15. Re:Odd isn't it...Big Haystacks. by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    His point was this: Imagine that you are a small business that provides computational physics consulting to big companies. You don't make much money, but you have a big computer center which is most of your capital. Now, imagine that the feds investigate you for some reason (a competitor phones in an anonymous tip that you have warez on your servers or something like that). They bust in and take every computer that you own. In all, they have 50 terabytes of disk space.

    Now, the feds don't have time to sort through 50 terabytes of disk space, so they just tinker with it little by little while they delay the court case while they try to build a case. In five years they give up and maybe return your computers.

    Of course, you spent $50 million dollars on that computer hardware, and were making only a modest profit on the investment - before it was confiscated. For the next five years you make nothing and go bankrupt since you're still paying the loans on the computers that you can't use. Then, when you get them back they're worthless since they're slow by modern standards and you'll need all new servers to keep up with the competition. However, you can't get a loan for new servers since you defaulted on the loan for the old ones. They go on ebay and you recover a few hundred thousand dollars for your creditors.

    Sure, this is a bit of a contrived example, but you can probably use your imagination to come up with similar scenarios. The feds don't care if they don't have enough resources to analyze the evidence - it isn't costing them anything to store it until they get around to it...

    The government routinely kills small businesses in the course of investigations by confiscating capital equipment. They'd never do it to Microsoft, however...