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Virgin's New iPod Rival

Posted by timothy on from the like-a-virgin dept.

iammaxus writes "CNET has the scoop on Virgin's new iPod killer. Favorite quote: 'Virgin said support for open standards such as WMA will let people select the music service of their choice.'" While this doesn't look like a bad player, it's the same price as an iPod mini (and incompatible with the most popular pay-per-download site), so calling it an iPod killer seems a bit premature.

45 of 401 comments (clear)

  1. design... by selderrr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't really like the design of the device... This shows why apple doesn't rush to market : they redesign and redesign and redesign until it's perfect. The Virgin player looks somewhat a quick & dirty design.

    Their portable speakers on the other hand look nifty.

    --
    When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
    1. Re:design... by mirko · · Score: 4, Funny

      While searching Google for iPod Killers, I found one that might succeed, though, it's elegant, light and support economy modus... Here it is...

      --
      Trolling using another account since 2005.
    2. Re:design... by macthulhu · · Score: 4, Funny

      Worry? I think I'd like to see Dvorak receive a beating to "Singin' In The Rain"... or how about Steve Ballmer getting one in the yarbles...

      --

      Someday a real rain is gonna come...

  2. support for open standards such as WMA... by PoprocksCk · · Score: 5, Funny

    In other news, Microsoft announced today that all of their intellectual property will, from now on, be fully licensed under the GPL.

    1. Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by Amiga+Lover · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's funny how used to saying that going the windows way is the way of 'choice' and apple is some kind of dead man's zone people are.

      "Hi! Use WMA! it gives you CHOICE over which online stores you use!"

      yes, you can use the online stores that have 2% of the market, 3% of the market, and 7% of the market, but you do miss out on the choice of using the biggest & best...

    2. Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by blowdart · · Score: 5, Insightful
      yes, you can use the online stores that have 2% of the market, 3% of the market, and 7% of the market

      But does the end user care, as long as the music they want is available for purchase? Doubtful. With all the major labels, and a lot of the minors on all the stores most people will use the store that works for their device and not worry about anything else. It's when you try to track down a hard to find piece of music the problems arise. If you're a Beatles fan you're right out of luck.

      Of course there's other "choice" available with WMA, you can choose a device from another vendor, you're no longer locked into Apple as controller of the format, seller of the music and only "manufacturer" of the portable device that plays it.

    3. Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by gfxguy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Of course, the CNET article doesn't actually say that... and also mentions mp3 compatibility... so it was just a stupid post, really.

      The Virgin site seems to be slashdotted at the moment, so I'll see what their marketing says about it, but I'm doubting they'll use open and WMA together...

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    4. Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by Mr_Silver · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "Hi! Use WMA! it gives you CHOICE over which online stores you use!"

      I appreciate that the parent poster was joking but it is worth pointing out that if the Apple store starts to jack up the prices, there is nowhere else you can legimately purchase the AAC files that they sell.

      On the other hand, if a WMA shop does the same, you simply shift to another one.

      Finally, everyone likes to blame Microsoft for the DRM in WMA. However they completely forget that Microsoft just provided the capability - it is up to the content providers on whether or not they use it.

      --
      Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
    5. Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by thparker · · Score: 5, Insightful
      OK, but is the iTunes market share not driven by the ownership of an iPod? That's what I'm questioning.

      It's probably not as clearly a factor as some would assume. The addition of iTunes for Windows boosted iPod sales, so a strong argument exists that the iTunes Music Store drives iPod market share more than the iPod drives iTMS market share. (I, personally, started using iTunes because I liked the interface, decided to buy a couple songs off the iTMS because it was integrated with iTunes, and only later decided to buy an iPod because it worked well with iTunes.)

      But like I said, a market share number alone doesn't answer WHY. It's entirely possible that a growing number of non-iTMS-compatible devices will shift the market share breakdown. However, if most people buy digital audio players to rip and carry their own music, the music store is almost irrelevant. Most music is still sold on CD, and in that respect iTunes is compatible with almost every player out there.

      tom

  3. Whatever by ibentmywookie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Every man and his dog is making an "iPod killer" these days. But none of em seem to get it.

    I am yet to see a better combination than iPod + iTunes for managing music. And the interface on the ipod is really nice and easy to use. I haven't bought one because they're a bit pricey and don't play ogg :)

    --
    -- The doctor said I wouldn't get so many nose bleeds if I just kept my finger out of there!
    1. Re:Whatever by Proteus · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I know a lot of people playing music on thier pcs/portable devices and not a one uses OGG
      That's a bit of chicken-and-egg. I know lots of portable-music people who rip everything to MP3 because their favorite player has no OGG support. The industry says OGG won't be supported on portables until OGG is in wider use -- but OGG won't be in wider use until portables support it. It's a challenge.

      Thing is, OGG is at least as good as any other psycho-acoustic encoding system -- even if the file sizes are slightly larger (with 20G in your pocket, who cares anyhow?). But, the majority of portable users will use whatever choices their portable gives them -- so if the iPod added OGG support and had iTunes enabled to rip to OGG by default, people would use it. As long as OGG lacks DRM, though, there is no compelling reason to add its support.

      Of course, if you really want your OGG files, but have an MP3-based portable, you could always transcode... the loss from a Quality-10 OGG to a 192kbps MP3 isn't terribly significant -- and those that could tell probably don't use anything less than FLAC anyhow -- but the idea of transcoding is lost on the average consumer.
      --
      We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
    2. Re:Whatever by the_pooh_experience · · Score: 4, Funny
      blockquoteth the postser:
      "The industry says OGG won't be supported on portables until OGG is in wider use -- but OGG won't be in wider use until portables support it. It's a challenge."

      Is this a good example of the old addage "Which came first, the chicken or the OGG?"

  4. the 50th challenger for the throne by TAGmclaren · · Score: 5, Insightful

    except, really, it doesn't do anything better than the king. Branson of all people should know that if you don't differentiate, you won't beat the incumbent. Especially when the incumbent has a flock of rabid followers and is singularly considered the coolest tech gadget in the past ten years.

    --
    Iran has endorsed
    1. Re:the 50th challenger for the throne by I+confirm+I'm+not+a · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Branson of all people should know that if you don't differentiate, you won't beat the incumbent

      Not trolling, but (with one obvious exception - Virgin Galactic) when has Branson innovated? Virgin Atlantic was just another airline, Virgin Cola just another cola, etc. There's probably something obvious I've missed but when I think of Virgin/Branson, I *don't* think innovation, I think discount prices.

      (Still, with Virgin Galactic I'm prepared to forgive him...)

      --
      This is where the serious fun begins.
    2. Re:the 50th challenger for the throne by D-Cypell · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You may wish to research Branson's early business history. He began with a telephone order music service that was (at the time) very innovative.

      It seems that the smart thing to do in business, is to come up with a innovative product, make enough money to get your head above the water and from that point just lock-step.

  5. Qua?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
    support for open standards such as WMA

    Since when is WMA an open standard?

    I've already got my iPod and I hope it doesn't get killed by this device. Can I take Virgin to court if they kill my iPod?

    Come on, this "iPod killer" thing needs to stop until the device is actually rated and used by someone, and is actually better than the iPod. Also, a key point: it needs to actually sell more.

  6. WMA? by darkseid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Since when is WMA considered an open standard? How about FLAC or OGG?

  7. What they don't realize by panker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    iPod is cool, but its seamless integration with iTunes is what makes it the thing to beat. These iPod killers seems to forget that.

    --
    move along, nothing to .sig here.
    1. Re:What they don't realize by jrockway · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree with you. All the posts above mine (in reply to yours) seem to think iTunes + iPod sucks, but they are very uneducated.

      If I listen to an audiobook on my computer for a bit, then sync with my ipod, the ipod resumes where I left off. When I get back to my computer and sync, the bookmark (on the computer) is right where it was when I was listening to it on the iPod. Perfect integration.

      If I change the per-song EQ setting in iTunes, it is reflected on the iPod.

      The song count, last-played timestamp, etc. are all synchronized between iTunes and the iPod.

      Soundcheck works on both iTunes and the iPod.

      (need I mention the iTMS?)

      All of these things make the iTunes + iPod combination perfect. Everything that the iPod does, iTunes does. Everything iTunes does, the iPod does. It even syncs with iCal and Address Book, too.

      That is why the iPod has not been killed by some "iRiver" (how did they get away with that name!?) or Sony ATRAC3 player. Nobody else has paid attention the software, all they pay attention to is bullet-points (0.3 megapixel camera! yay! that's just what my music player needed!) and names like "iPod killer".

      --
      My other car is first.
    2. Re:What they don't realize by b-baggins · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This statement is getting really old. CDs are lossy. Analog is lossy. Even your ears are lossy (the cochlea cannot differentiate an infinite range of frequencies.)

      The key to lossy compression is to make the lossiness below the threshold of detection.

      --
      You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
  8. Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by Dynamoo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Virgin is a classic case of "brand stretching", and in the UK they run an incredibly unreliable passenger railway service. Presumably people using the Virgin music service can expect their downloads to be 2 hours late, to break down regularly and to disrupt the entire internet when in progress.

    --
    Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com
    1. Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by dschuetz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All rail in the UK seems determined to be as crap as possible.

      Hey, at least you've *got* serious rail. I recently spent a couple weeks in the UK (mostly in Yorkshire) and was impressed by the rail system, overall. We had one delay coming back from London (the Leeds train was late) but in general, we never had any problems.

      And the whole "walk a few blocks into town to grab a train to go the next major city over" thing was fantastic. Just £6.50 for a 1-hour ride to/from York? Incredible. That'd be like driving to the nearest strip mall here in Northern Virgina and getting to downtown Baltimore for, what, $10 or so? I can't even do round-trip to DC for under $7 during rush hour, and the nearest Metro (subway) station is a 15 minute drive away.

      So, yes, there are probably many problems, and there will *always* be problems. But having a large, well-used, cheap regional/national rail network is something we chaps on the left side of the pond will always envy. We're lucky if we can get regional rail around a single city, let alone networked between 'em. (and we'll never have a subway as pervasive as the London Underground, except in New York, and that's only because it was built so long ago).

    2. Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by kraut · · Score: 3, Interesting

      >The Public was conned into believing that privatisation would benefit them in some way....
      You tell me with a straight face that you honestly believe that the privatisation of, e.g., BT, has not benefitted the British people, and I'll buy a copy of Socialist Worker off of you. When I've stopped laughing, which will take a while.

      > Why did people buy these shares anyway?
      To make money on the investment? Capitalism 101.

      > ... that the British blood in your veins...
      Oooohh, Nationalist and Socialist, nice ;)

      > After seven years of Blair, the nation's wealth is distributed less equitably than when he started,
      I'm not sure the focus on wealth distribution is entirely healthy; you should look instead at the levels of poverty. If everyone has enough to eat, and a roof over their head, access to services and education - why should they worry that someone else has more?

      > and fox hunting is still legal.
      And let's hope it bloody well stays that way!

      Coming on to the real failures of the Blair administration:
      * Completely fucked up the reform of the house of lords, achieving the seemingly impossible by making it less democratic.
      * Huge increases in tax, nicely hidden away where it's not too obvious to the feebleminded.
      * No visible progress on improving the things that actually need fixing - NHS, transport, education. But time to protect cuddly foxes.
      * Still no Freedom of Information Act. Funny how they dropped THAT manifesto promise once they got their grubby hands on power.
      * Continuing erosion of civil liberties. Come on, Blunkett makes Howard (previously universally reviled as the most repressive home secretary in history) look like a bleeding heart liberal in comparison. Let's look at some examples:
      * RIP act - the government, the council, and any tom dick and harry has the right to snoop your email. And of course this will not catch a single criminal.
      * Phone taps don't need judicial oversight anymore
      * Foreigners (like me, in theory) can be locked up indefinitely without trial, charge, or any disclosed evidence
      * Biometric ID cards - lots of government invasion into your life, huge costs, zero actual benefit.

      Let's not even get into the mess of the pension system (admittedly that was a mess beforehand, but he's not done anything to improve it), or the fundemental injustice of meanstesting.

      --
      no taxation without representation!
  9. Clunky gray FM Thing by JasonUCF · · Score: 4, Funny

    So, uh, it's the same price as a Mini, right?

    And the same kind of storage, right?

    And it doesn't have iTunes, right?

    And it's got those 80's style recessed buttons for navigation, right? 80's style gray looks like, too.

    So, the addition of an FM Tuner (i like) makes it a killer?

    Has someone been drinking the Richard Branson cappucino?

    Don't get me wrong, I admire the guy, I'm glad there's true entrepenuers (read: morning wood all day long) guys like him... but come on... try and read between the lines a little! Don't be another mindless hype blowhard!

    1. Re:Clunky gray FM Thing by Pope · · Score: 3, Informative

      I still don't understand why someone would want a radio tuner, I bought my iPod to listen to the music I want to hear, not what Clear Channel tells me to. Same thing with my DiscMan and Walkman before it. I gave up on radio years ago.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  10. lacking by Savves · · Score: 5, Funny
    from tfm:

    Share your music
    Dual headphone jacks so you can listen with friends. Friends not included.

    bummer... for once i thought i could finally get one bundled with a music player =(

  11. They just don't get it. by tclark · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What these supposed challengers don't get is that the iPod is not just a nifty gadget. It's part of a system that includes an online music store, a desktop client, and the actual iPod device. An "iPod killer" has to take on the iPod on all of these points.

  12. iPod killer? by Quixote · · Score: 5, Funny

    iPod killer, meet the website killer.

  13. Re:Ipod Killer? by ViolentGreen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We have had so many "iPod Killers" that the term now just means "new mp3 player."

    --
    Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
  14. Built in FM tuner, can you record? by linuxtelephony · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I like the built in FM tuner. The big question is if you can record from it. It doesn't look like it. And that's exactly what I want.

    I attend various conferences. Some of them broadcast on a low power FM radio signal for people in the audience that are hard of hearing. Those people can have a private radio with headsets and adjust the volume to make it easier for them to hear. It also is a great way to record the program without the distracting noises from the audience.

    I'd like to find an MP3 player, HD based or replacement memory sticks (SD, xD, whatever), that has the ability to record using a built in microphone and an FM tuner. A microphone jack would be a plus.

    The closest I've found is a small 128/256 meg device, but the memory is not interchangeable, it's built in.

    Anyone know of anything like that? Who makes it? And where it can be found?

    --
    . 62,400 repetitions make one truth -- Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
  15. On the other hand, by SerialHistorian · · Score: 3, Insightful
    WalMart's music store tends to have a wider selection of music than iTunes does (There's a lot of really new, albiet obscure stuff that WalMart has that iTunes doesn't.), and it's cheaper per track to buy stuff at WalMart online. The Virgin player would be capable of playing songs from WalMart's music store where iTunes and the iPod isn't.

    There are good reasons to discount microsoft's media products as useless, but "they don't have the market share" is *not* one of them!

    --

    --
    Vote for your hopes, not for your fears - Vote Third Party

  16. CNET does some editing. . . by Zobeid · · Score: 5, Interesting
    It would appear that someone was stung by the many negative comments posted to that article. I can't find the previous quote (from Virgin) about open standards, but now the article has this somewhat more vague sentence:

    The $249 Virgin Player, weighing 3.1 ounces, supports MP3 and WMA music formats and is capable of working with various digital music services, the company said.


    Of course the iPod supports AAC and MP3 and "is capable of working with various digital music services" too. So I guess that's fair enough.
  17. ... on Virgin's new iPod killer by DaneelGiskard · · Score: 4, Funny

    Given the responsivness of their site it rather seems to be a story on "...slashdot's new Virgin killer" ...

  18. "it's their choice, not ours..." by mgkimsal2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Songs downloaded from iTunes are not supported. It's their choice, not ours.

    I'm glad someone has put it in such basic terms, rather than in small print.

    --
    creation science book
  19. Re:"Incompatible" with what ? by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 3, Informative

    What, you mean like This one?

  20. Re:Buy your music from any download service by Proteus · · Score: 3, Interesting
    it is Virgins choice not to make it compatible to the iTMS
    Except that Apple owns the FairPlay system, which is what makes iTunes tick. Cracking the DRM on FairPlay AAC files is in a legal gray-area, and is likely to cause corporate animosity -- rarely a good thing.

    If Apple refused to license FairPlay to Virgin, then Virgin is correct in saying that their lack of iTunes support is Apple's choice.
    (even if it's only MP3 they play)
    "Digital Music" is not all "MP3". iTunes are AAC, not MP3 (yes, I know, they both use MPEG-style encoding). Pedantic, perhaps, but important. Encoded music comes in lots of formats, not just WMA and MP3.
    --
    We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
  21. Re:Buy your music from any download service by Kevinv · · Score: 4, Informative

    iTunes can encode to MP3 OR (non-DRM) AAC not just AAC. iPod can play both MP3 and AAC (non-DRM or fairplay encoded)

  22. Coolest tech gadget? by pjt33 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Surely you're forgetting the Segway!

  23. Instant karma by chegosaurus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Man says iPod is too expensive and doesn't play ogg. HOLD THE FRONT FUCKING PAGE!

    Score 4 and counting. Love those moderators.

  24. Has to be BETTER or CHEAPER by cyngus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you want to dethrone a wildly popular product, you have to put one out there that is wildly better or quite a bit cheaper. Companies traditionally haven't been able to compete with Apple very much on the better part (perhaps clock speed, for a while), so they've come out with cheaper products. You are not going to derail the iPod with something that is roughly the same at the same price point. A little more capacity or being compatible with a different set of incompatible standards (WMA DRM vs iTMS).

  25. Unfair to Apple by Astadar · · Score: 3, Funny

    Virgin can have articles which refer to its devices as "Virgin's new iPod killer", but Apple can't really go and announce "iPod's new Virgin killer."

    (at least not without some outcry from the "virgin's rights" people)

    --
    --Coming up with something clever... please wait...
  26. compare the volume by jxyama · · Score: 5, Interesting
    just wanted to note that this player is much closer in size to regular (20 GB) iPod than iPod mini. since it's lighter than iPod mini, i imagine it will feel less "solid" and a bit airy compared to the mini. (which would make it feel "cheaper" imo.)

    20 GB iPod: 2.4 x 4.1 x 0.57 = 5.61 cu. in.
    (40 GB iPod: 2.4 x 4.1 x 0.69 = 6.79 cu. in.)
    iPod mini: 3.6 x 2.0 x 0.5 = 3.60 cu. in.
    Virgin: 3.78 x 2.23 x 0.62 = 5.23 cu. in.

  27. Re:Its not like the iPod is compatible either... by rusty_rusty_rusty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Or legally rip your CDs into mp3 or non-drm'd aac (or wav or aiff or Apple Lossless!) and sync your iPod. No hacking and no "fees to Apple" necessary...

  28. The Real Killer... by blueZhift · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All of this talk about an iPod killer seemingly every week now is just wishful thinking. The insiders must know that the true iPod killer will be the device that does the following.

    1.) Looks really good, like the iPod

    2.) Plays _all_ of the major formats including OGG

    3.) Works with whatever music store you like

    4.) Is competitively priced and reliable

    Technically this is all possible. Having a good looking player that plays all of the major music formats is well within reach. The other stuff is where it gets tricky primarily due to copyright issues. If encumbering DRM would just go away the market would explode. It is the need for DRM that leads to the current incompatibilities. Yeah, if there were a single standard it would be better (maybe) but that's not going to happen because there is basic disagreement on just what the end user should be able to do with music and how much and how often they should pay. Right now, the iPod plus iTunes offer what IMHO is the most end user friendly set of circumstances. Yeah, the iPod doesn't play OGG, but nothing keeps me from converting OGG to mp3 and loading it that way. I can even get unprotected WMA on my pod. Unfortunately a lot of the Japanese music I listen to is on copy protected CDs which are a bear to deal with, but after some work (no cracking involved) I can get these on my pod too. No extra fees or subscriptions! I can pretty much deal with music the way I did in the days of making compilation cassettes for my car or walkman. Heck, this is even easier than that was! Right or wrong, I feel more like Apple wants to help me DO things, rather than STOP me from doing things.

    Bottom line, no iPod killer is likely to appear anytime soon because the fundamental problems are nowhere near resolution. Microsoft could do a lot to unify things on the Windows side, but ultimately competition among record companies isn't going to allow the kind of unification that could pose a real challenge for Apple's iPod+iTunes dominance. And of course, Apple isn't likely to be standing still either.

    --
    To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
  29. Other AAC stores... by Otto · · Score: 3, Informative

    I appreciate that the parent poster was joking but it is worth pointing out that if the Apple store starts to jack up the prices, there is nowhere else you can legimately purchase the AAC files that they sell.

    Off the top of my head:
    -Magnatune
    -Real's Music store (yes, it sells AAC at 192kbps)
    -Allofmp3.com (dubious legality aside)

    AAC is by far a more open format than WMA. Anybody could setup a music store to sell AAC files. Now, doing it with DRM and supporting the iPod or iTunes is a different story, I grant you. But Real did it and following their lead might be a good approach.

    --
    - Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.