Virgin's New iPod Rival

design... by selderrr · 2004-10-13 00:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

I don't really like the design of the device... This shows why apple doesn't rush to market : they redesign and redesign and redesign until it's perfect. The Virgin player looks somewhat a quick & dirty design.

Their portable speakers on the other hand look nifty.

--
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?

Re:design... by mirko · 2004-10-13 00:25 · Score: 4, Funny

While searching Google for iPod Killers, I found one that might succeed, though, it's elegant, light and support economy modus... Here it is...

--
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Re:design... by shepd · 2004-10-13 01:12 · Score: 2, Interesting

I disagree. Looks really nice. I like how they've outlined the buttons with what appears to be a ridge so that it's easy to use in poor light without having to light up the device.

From what I can see of the picture, it seems like the clear LCD protector covers most of the front of the unit. I like that, too.

The blue-grey on silver-beige two tone scheme sets it apart from all the copycat white-only products out there.

By choosing not to use an identical interface to the iPods, Virgin will attract users who find the iPod interface displeasing.

Basically, thank God it's not an iPod clone.

I wish I could load virgin's site for more pictures. :-S

--
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Re:design... by Lussarn · 2004-10-13 01:29 · Score: 2, Funny

Yeah, they redisigned until it looked like a white brick. Most of apples products these days looks like a white brick. What if I don't live in cloud city and need some other design?
Re:design... by macthulhu · 2004-10-13 02:02 · Score: 2, Interesting

I love all of my Apple products, but I always thought that the last few years worth of designs (iMac, G3, G4, iBook, & especially the iLamp) looked like set dressing from A Clockwork Orange... which in my book isn't a bad thing, just sort of odd. I'm not thrilled with the all white lineup... It starts looking shabby after all of the handling. This is particularly annoying in the case of the iPod and iBook...

--
Someday a real rain is gonna come...
Re:design... by macthulhu · 2004-10-13 02:43 · Score: 4, Funny

Worry? I think I'd like to see Dvorak receive a beating to "Singin' In The Rain"... or how about Steve Ballmer getting one in the yarbles...

--
Someday a real rain is gonna come...
Re:design... by tbase · 2004-10-13 02:46 · Score: 2, Funny

I agree. But even Apple can't beat the design of this iPod killer

--

666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
Re:design... by Black.Shuck · 2004-10-13 06:22 · Score: 2, Informative

I disagree to some extent. I received an iRiver H340 yesterday. While I won't get much initial use out of the following features it is good to know they are integrated and I won't need to purchase a seperate device to get them later: FM tuner with recording, dictaphone, image and text-viewer, and support for connecting to cameras and other devices through USB.

The other features I couldn't be without: Playlists, multiple audio-formats (with upgradable firmware which could support more in future, and even video), the awesome equaliser that includes WOW, SRS and TruBass, 16 hours of battery-life, 40GB of disk-space with no restriction on what you can load on it (essentially a portable HDD), and a verbose but simple-to-use tag-browser.

And lets not forget, the interface is damn sexy, and usable with it.

support for open standards such as WMA... by PoprocksCk · 2004-10-13 00:15 · Score: 5, Funny

In other news, Microsoft announced today that all of their intellectual property will, from now on, be fully licensed under the GPL.

Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by Amiga+Lover · 2004-10-13 00:22 · Score: 5, Funny

It's funny how used to saying that going the windows way is the way of 'choice' and apple is some kind of dead man's zone people are.

"Hi! Use WMA! it gives you CHOICE over which online stores you use!"

yes, you can use the online stores that have 2% of the market, 3% of the market, and 7% of the market, but you do miss out on the choice of using the biggest & best...
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by blowdart · 2004-10-13 00:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

yes, you can use the online stores that have 2% of the market, 3% of the market, and 7% of the market
But does the end user care, as long as the music they want is available for purchase? Doubtful. With all the major labels, and a lot of the minors on all the stores most people will use the store that works for their device and not worry about anything else. It's when you try to track down a hard to find piece of music the problems arise. If you're a Beatles fan you're right out of luck.
Of course there's other "choice" available with WMA, you can choose a device from another vendor, you're no longer locked into Apple as controller of the format, seller of the music and only "manufacturer" of the portable device that plays it.
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by gfxguy · 2004-10-13 00:55 · Score: 4, Informative

Of course, the CNET article doesn't actually say that... and also mentions mp3 compatibility... so it was just a stupid post, really.

The Virgin site seems to be slashdotted at the moment, so I'll see what their marketing says about it, but I'm doubting they'll use open and WMA together...

--
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by Mr_Silver · 2004-10-13 01:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

"Hi! Use WMA! it gives you CHOICE over which online stores you use!"
I appreciate that the parent poster was joking but it is worth pointing out that if the Apple store starts to jack up the prices, there is nowhere else you can legimately purchase the AAC files that they sell.
On the other hand, if a WMA shop does the same, you simply shift to another one.
Finally, everyone likes to blame Microsoft for the DRM in WMA. However they completely forget that Microsoft just provided the capability - it is up to the content providers on whether or not they use it.

--
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by Refrag · 2004-10-13 02:46 · Score: 2

You can always buy CDs if Apple jacks the prices -- which they have no motivation to do.

--
I have a website. It's about Macs.
Re:support for open standards such as WMA... by thparker · 2004-10-13 03:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

OK, but is the iTunes market share not driven by the ownership of an iPod? That's what I'm questioning.
It's probably not as clearly a factor as some would assume. The addition of iTunes for Windows boosted iPod sales, so a strong argument exists that the iTunes Music Store drives iPod market share more than the iPod drives iTMS market share. (I, personally, started using iTunes because I liked the interface, decided to buy a couple songs off the iTMS because it was integrated with iTunes, and only later decided to buy an iPod because it worked well with iTunes.)
But like I said, a market share number alone doesn't answer WHY. It's entirely possible that a growing number of non-iTMS-compatible devices will shift the market share breakdown. However, if most people buy digital audio players to rip and carry their own music, the music store is almost irrelevant. Most music is still sold on CD, and in that respect iTunes is compatible with almost every player out there.
tom

Whatever by ibentmywookie · 2004-10-13 00:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

Every man and his dog is making an "iPod killer" these days. But none of em seem to get it.

I am yet to see a better combination than iPod + iTunes for managing music. And the interface on the ipod is really nice and easy to use. I haven't bought one because they're a bit pricey and don't play ogg :)

--
-- The doctor said I wouldn't get so many nose bleeds if I just kept my finger out of there!

Re:Whatever by excessive · 2004-10-13 00:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

Theres the fact its a nicer looking product but theres another set of "iPod killers" that I think miss the point entirely. A lot of manufacturers seem to think that adding a screen and video playback somehow makes their product an "iPod killer". You generally only want video playback when you're moving but aren't controlling the movement, (e.g. trains, planes, passengers in a car...) anywhere else, you'd use a DVD player. Demonstrations, possibly, I suppose. DVD players are handier anyway - you'd have to get the video into the video ones anyway.
The iPods get used for things CD players used to get used for - but they're smaller, handier, lighter, hold more music, are easier to use, less likely to jump... People can use them at the gym, when out running or cycling.
Anyway, I suppose I'm the sort of person that likes a mobile phone to be a mobile phone and not a PDA, a games console and dozens of other things, so perhaps I'm missing the point.
Re:Whatever by Proteus · 2004-10-13 00:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

I know a lot of people playing music on thier pcs/portable devices and not a one uses OGG
That's a bit of chicken-and-egg. I know lots of portable-music people who rip everything to MP3 because their favorite player has no OGG support. The industry says OGG won't be supported on portables until OGG is in wider use -- but OGG won't be in wider use until portables support it. It's a challenge.

Thing is, OGG is at least as good as any other psycho-acoustic encoding system -- even if the file sizes are slightly larger (with 20G in your pocket, who cares anyhow?). But, the majority of portable users will use whatever choices their portable gives them -- so if the iPod added OGG support and had iTunes enabled to rip to OGG by default, people would use it. As long as OGG lacks DRM, though, there is no compelling reason to add its support.

Of course, if you really want your OGG files, but have an MP3-based portable, you could always transcode... the loss from a Quality-10 OGG to a 192kbps MP3 isn't terribly significant -- and those that could tell probably don't use anything less than FLAC anyhow -- but the idea of transcoding is lost on the average consumer.

--
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
Re:Whatever by benzapp · 2004-10-13 01:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

Music companies are not going to even consider Ogg as a viable music format until it is completely integrated into Windows Media Player, and a plug-in is easily downloadable from a major website.

Until that time, it is going to be a niche format.

Further, the continued lack of a fully featured WMP plug-in just shows the vorbis people aren't too considered with wide market appeal.

--
I don't read or respond to AC posts
Re:Whatever by the_pooh_experience · 2004-10-13 02:34 · Score: 4, Funny

blockquoteth the postser:
"The industry says OGG won't be supported on portables until OGG is in wider use -- but OGG won't be in wider use until portables support it. It's a challenge."

Is this a good example of the old addage "Which came first, the chicken or the OGG?"

the 50th challenger for the throne by TAGmclaren · 2004-10-13 00:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

except, really, it doesn't do anything better than the king. Branson of all people should know that if you don't differentiate, you won't beat the incumbent. Especially when the incumbent has a flock of rabid followers and is singularly considered the coolest tech gadget in the past ten years.

--
Iran has endorsed

Re:the 50th challenger for the throne by I+confirm+I'm+not+a · 2004-10-13 00:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

Branson of all people should know that if you don't differentiate, you won't beat the incumbent

Not trolling, but (with one obvious exception - Virgin Galactic) when has Branson innovated? Virgin Atlantic was just another airline, Virgin Cola just another cola, etc. There's probably something obvious I've missed but when I think of Virgin/Branson, I *don't* think innovation, I think discount prices.

(Still, with Virgin Galactic I'm prepared to forgive him...)

--
This is where the serious fun begins.
Re:the 50th challenger for the throne by D-Cypell · 2004-10-13 00:32 · Score: 4, Interesting

You may wish to research Branson's early business history. He began with a telephone order music service that was (at the time) very innovative.

It seems that the smart thing to do in business, is to come up with a innovative product, make enough money to get your head above the water and from that point just lock-step.
Re:the 50th challenger for the throne by Threni · 2004-10-13 01:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

> Branson of all people should know that if you don't differentiate, you won't
> beat the incumbent.

Branson sells stuff cheaper, and he's `beaten` the people he competes against, to the extent that he's successful, anyway.

The Japanese `beat` the UK in terms of cars and motorbikes without differentiating. They do new stuff now, but in the 70's - 90's they were doing a lot of copying of successful western designs.

> the incumbent has a flock of rabid followers

So did the Amiga. You make money by selling stuff - having a bunch of lame fan boys trying to justify the fact they they paid hand over fist for what is basically a jumped up, over-priced walkman means nothing. In a few years time the iPod will simply be remembered as one of the first HD based music playback devices - not the cheapest, largest or whatever.

Qua?? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-13 00:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

support for open standards such as WMA

Since when is WMA an open standard?

I've already got my iPod and I hope it doesn't get killed by this device. Can I take Virgin to court if they kill my iPod?

Come on, this "iPod killer" thing needs to stop until the device is actually rated and used by someone, and is actually better than the iPod. Also, a key point: it needs to actually sell more.

Re:Qua?? by the_2nd_coming · 2004-10-13 07:03 · Score: 2, Informative

actually, Windows Media 9 format is open in as much as MPEG formats are open. the DVD folks required MS to do so.

--

I am the Alpha and the Omega-3

WMA? by darkseid · 2004-10-13 00:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

Since when is WMA considered an open standard? How about FLAC or OGG?

Re:WMA? by TAGmclaren · 2004-10-13 00:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

Since when is WMA considered an open standard?

It's not. For users, anyway.

Virgin is getting confused. They're telling us the reasons they selected it, as opposed to the reasons we would select it. WMA is definitely not a selling point, not to anyone who knows shit about technology.

--
Iran has endorsed

What they don't realize by panker · 2004-10-13 00:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

iPod is cool, but its seamless integration with iTunes is what makes it the thing to beat. These iPod killers seems to forget that.

--
move along, nothing to .sig here.

Re:What they don't realize by jrockway · 2004-10-13 01:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

I agree with you. All the posts above mine (in reply to yours) seem to think iTunes + iPod sucks, but they are very uneducated.

If I listen to an audiobook on my computer for a bit, then sync with my ipod, the ipod resumes where I left off. When I get back to my computer and sync, the bookmark (on the computer) is right where it was when I was listening to it on the iPod. Perfect integration.

If I change the per-song EQ setting in iTunes, it is reflected on the iPod.

The song count, last-played timestamp, etc. are all synchronized between iTunes and the iPod.

Soundcheck works on both iTunes and the iPod.

(need I mention the iTMS?)

All of these things make the iTunes + iPod combination perfect. Everything that the iPod does, iTunes does. Everything iTunes does, the iPod does. It even syncs with iCal and Address Book, too.

That is why the iPod has not been killed by some "iRiver" (how did they get away with that name!?) or Sony ATRAC3 player. Nobody else has paid attention the software, all they pay attention to is bullet-points (0.3 megapixel camera! yay! that's just what my music player needed!) and names like "iPod killer".

--
My other car is first.
Re:What they don't realize by b-baggins · 2004-10-13 01:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

This statement is getting really old. CDs are lossy. Analog is lossy. Even your ears are lossy (the cochlea cannot differentiate an infinite range of frequencies.)

The key to lossy compression is to make the lossiness below the threshold of detection.

--
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
Re:What they don't realize by Threni · 2004-10-13 02:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

> This statement is getting really old.

It's not an argument, it's a statement of opinion.

> CDs are lossy.

Red Book Audio CDs don't contain compressed data, therefore they can not accurately be described as lossy. The fact that for any given sample rate it's possible to say `ah, but you're losing data that you'd be able to store if only the sample rate were a little higher` changes nothing.

> Analog is lossy.

Again, analog isn't a method of compression, therefore in this context it cannot be described as lossy or lossless. It's just harder to copy accurately.

> Even your
> ears are lossy (the cochlea cannot differentiate an infinite range of
> frequencies.)

That's not the definition of lossy.

You sort of have a point with what you're saying, but it has little to do with my point. The fact that stuff isn't perfect doesn't mean that you should make the source any worse by removing information.

> The key to lossy compression is to make the lossiness below the threshold of
> detection.

There is no one threshold - some people have more keen ears than others. I listen to a lot of music, which takes me back to my original point.

Its not like the iPod is compatible either... by cybrthng · 2004-10-13 00:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

Last time i checked vendors are having to hack the iPod to be able to download to it or pay fees to Apple..

I still think the market will be fragmented until the adoption of an open standard - that is royalty free is adopted.

The margins are so thin on online music the only way people can make a profit is through proprietary hardware.

Standardize on the hardware and make some profit on the services folks!

Re:Its not like the iPod is compatible either... by rusty_rusty_rusty · 2004-10-13 01:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

Or legally rip your CDs into mp3 or non-drm'd aac (or wav or aiff or Apple Lossless!) and sync your iPod. No hacking and no "fees to Apple" necessary...

Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by Dynamoo · 2004-10-13 00:18 · Score: 4, Funny

Virgin is a classic case of "brand stretching", and in the UK they run an incredibly unreliable passenger railway service. Presumably people using the Virgin music service can expect their downloads to be 2 hours late, to break down regularly and to disrupt the entire internet when in progress.

--
Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com

Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by tolan-b · 2004-10-13 00:27 · Score: 2, Informative

To be fair they're not really any worse than any of the other privatised rail companies are they?

I don't use rail all that much so do correct me if I'm wrong.

(I'm sure someone will anyway ;)
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by dschuetz · 2004-10-13 01:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

All rail in the UK seems determined to be as crap as possible.

Hey, at least you've *got* serious rail. I recently spent a couple weeks in the UK (mostly in Yorkshire) and was impressed by the rail system, overall. We had one delay coming back from London (the Leeds train was late) but in general, we never had any problems.

And the whole "walk a few blocks into town to grab a train to go the next major city over" thing was fantastic. Just £6.50 for a 1-hour ride to/from York? Incredible. That'd be like driving to the nearest strip mall here in Northern Virgina and getting to downtown Baltimore for, what, $10 or so? I can't even do round-trip to DC for under $7 during rush hour, and the nearest Metro (subway) station is a 15 minute drive away.

So, yes, there are probably many problems, and there will *always* be problems. But having a large, well-used, cheap regional/national rail network is something we chaps on the left side of the pond will always envy. We're lucky if we can get regional rail around a single city, let alone networked between 'em. (and we'll never have a subway as pervasive as the London Underground, except in New York, and that's only because it was built so long ago).
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by ajs318 · 2004-10-13 01:16 · Score: 2, Informative

When the UK's railway service was privatised -- which was probably the worst thing that happened to the railways since they were nationalised -- the Government of the day made sure that Virgin received the absolute worst rolling stock and worked the absolute worst routes. This was a deliberate attempt to discredit Richard Branson {who had previously expressed the belief that he could do a better job, and thus had to be taken down a peg or two}. Branson has money, for certain, but seems to realise that it is not the only thing which has intrinsic value.

The Public was conned into believing that privatisation would benefit them in some way, thanks to a series of privatisation initiatives throughout the 1980s in which Thatcher sold us all what we used to already own. Cut-price shares in the likes of BT, British Gas and the artificial companies formed from the breakup of CEGB were targeted towards small investors, who then sold them on to faceless investment banking corporations for a handsome profit. Why did people buy these shares anyway? Thatcher sold the family silver, that is certain, but how could the eventual purchasers live with themselves for being complicit in one of the greatest crimes a government has ever committed against its own citizens? Did you need a piece of paper saying you owned a share in a former Nationalised company? Wasn't it enough to know that the British blood in your veins entitled you to a share in the operations which make up this country's essential infrastructure? Or did you just feel the need to flaunt your superiority over your neighbour because you had shares in company X and they didn't?

If I was transport minister, I would at once re-nationalise the railways; and proceed to raise the money necessary to bring them up to a reasonable specification, by prosecuting everyone who had ever owned so much as even one single share in a privatised railway company, for knowingly dealing in stolen property. And for my next trick I would prosecute the "Labour" party for misrepresenting itself as the People's party {there can be no such thing as a Labour party without Clause Four, "To secure for the producers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry, and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible, upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry and service"}. After seven years of Blair, the nation's wealth is distributed less equitably than when he started, and fox hunting is still legal.

--
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by CrackedButter · 2004-10-13 01:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

If you think that was good you should check out Tokyo, its linked rail and underground systems handles far more traffic and is more efficient than anything in the UK. Some of it is open 24 hours a day as well due to the amount of communters it carries.

--
Jonathanjk.com
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by FurryFeet · 2004-10-13 06:29 · Score: 2, Funny

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to suscribe to your newsletter.
Re:Virgin Trains vs Virgin Player by kraut · 2004-10-13 10:10 · Score: 3, Interesting

>The Public was conned into believing that privatisation would benefit them in some way....
You tell me with a straight face that you honestly believe that the privatisation of, e.g., BT, has not benefitted the British people, and I'll buy a copy of Socialist Worker off of you. When I've stopped laughing, which will take a while.

> Why did people buy these shares anyway?
To make money on the investment? Capitalism 101.

> ... that the British blood in your veins...
Oooohh, Nationalist and Socialist, nice ;)

> After seven years of Blair, the nation's wealth is distributed less equitably than when he started,
I'm not sure the focus on wealth distribution is entirely healthy; you should look instead at the levels of poverty. If everyone has enough to eat, and a roof over their head, access to services and education - why should they worry that someone else has more?

> and fox hunting is still legal.
And let's hope it bloody well stays that way!

Coming on to the real failures of the Blair administration:
* Completely fucked up the reform of the house of lords, achieving the seemingly impossible by making it less democratic.
* Huge increases in tax, nicely hidden away where it's not too obvious to the feebleminded.
* No visible progress on improving the things that actually need fixing - NHS, transport, education. But time to protect cuddly foxes.
* Still no Freedom of Information Act. Funny how they dropped THAT manifesto promise once they got their grubby hands on power.
* Continuing erosion of civil liberties. Come on, Blunkett makes Howard (previously universally reviled as the most repressive home secretary in history) look like a bleeding heart liberal in comparison. Let's look at some examples:
* RIP act - the government, the council, and any tom dick and harry has the right to snoop your email. And of course this will not catch a single criminal.
* Phone taps don't need judicial oversight anymore
* Foreigners (like me, in theory) can be locked up indefinitely without trial, charge, or any disclosed evidence
* Biometric ID cards - lots of government invasion into your life, huge costs, zero actual benefit.

Let's not even get into the mess of the pension system (admittedly that was a mess beforehand, but he's not done anything to improve it), or the fundemental injustice of meanstesting.

--
no taxation without representation!

Ipod Killer? by mrn121 · 2004-10-13 00:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

I keep reading about "ipod killers," but have yet to see the ipod dead.

Seems that these "killers" aren't real dangerous. It is the ipod that is killing everything else, truth be told.

Re:Ipod Killer? by ViolentGreen · 2004-10-13 00:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

We have had so many "iPod Killers" that the term now just means "new mp3 player."

--
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.

Clunky gray FM Thing by JasonUCF · 2004-10-13 00:19 · Score: 4, Funny

So, uh, it's the same price as a Mini, right?

And the same kind of storage, right?

And it doesn't have iTunes, right?

And it's got those 80's style recessed buttons for navigation, right? 80's style gray looks like, too.

So, the addition of an FM Tuner (i like) makes it a killer?

Has someone been drinking the Richard Branson cappucino?

Don't get me wrong, I admire the guy, I'm glad there's true entrepenuers (read: morning wood all day long) guys like him... but come on... try and read between the lines a little! Don't be another mindless hype blowhard!

Re:Clunky gray FM Thing by Pope · 2004-10-13 03:41 · Score: 3, Informative

I still don't understand why someone would want a radio tuner, I bought my iPod to listen to the music I want to hear, not what Clear Channel tells me to. Same thing with my DiscMan and Walkman before it. I gave up on radio years ago.

--
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Re:Clunky gray FM Thing by hambonewilkins · 2004-10-13 05:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yes, but what about NPR?
I use my mp3 player to listen to FM radio, namely NPR, while running.

--

God Bless America. Why? Did it sneeze?

"...friends not included" by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-13 00:19 · Score: 2, Funny

damn :(

lacking by Savves · 2004-10-13 00:20 · Score: 5, Funny

from tfm:

Share your music
Dual headphone jacks so you can listen with friends. Friends not included.

bummer... for once i thought i could finally get one bundled with a music player =(

Open Standards? by Constellation · 2004-10-13 00:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Since when is WMA an open standard? The last time that I looked it was owned solely by Microsoft and jealously guarded by an army of lawyers.

"Apples To Oranges" Comparison by bdash · 2004-10-13 00:22 · Score: 2, Informative

Nice to see that Virgin Electronics has a sense of humor. If only it were a good one...

They just don't get it. by tclark · 2004-10-13 00:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

What these supposed challengers don't get is that the iPod is not just a nifty gadget. It's part of a system that includes an online music store, a desktop client, and the actual iPod device. An "iPod killer" has to take on the iPod on all of these points.

Re:They just don't get it. by jrockway · 2004-10-13 01:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

iTunes crashed on you? Go try it on a real computer (a Mac) and see what happens?

Ohh, it works perfectly and makes you smile. That's why there's no iPod killer yet :)

--
My other car is first.

What's up with the geeky asian dude by BorgDrone · 2004-10-13 00:26 · Score: 2, Funny

I understand "Currently this site experiences heavy traffic. Please try again at a later time."

But what's up with the geeky asian dude with the weird shoes and is his name really George ? He doesn't look like a George.
If your site is experiencing heavy traffic, why include an almost 21 KB graphic on the error page, which adds absolutely nothing to the informativeness of the error, adds to the traffic and looks just creepy.

Are they trying to scare potential visitors away ?

iPod killer? by Quixote · 2004-10-13 00:26 · Score: 5, Funny

iPod killer, meet the website killer.

Built in FM tuner, can you record? by linuxtelephony · 2004-10-13 00:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

I like the built in FM tuner. The big question is if you can record from it. It doesn't look like it. And that's exactly what I want.

I attend various conferences. Some of them broadcast on a low power FM radio signal for people in the audience that are hard of hearing. Those people can have a private radio with headsets and adjust the volume to make it easier for them to hear. It also is a great way to record the program without the distracting noises from the audience.

I'd like to find an MP3 player, HD based or replacement memory sticks (SD, xD, whatever), that has the ability to record using a built in microphone and an FM tuner. A microphone jack would be a plus.

The closest I've found is a small 128/256 meg device, but the memory is not interchangeable, it's built in.

Anyone know of anything like that? Who makes it? And where it can be found?

--
. 62,400 repetitions make one truth -- Brave New World, Aldous Huxley

Re:UK market? by Tony+Hoyle · 2004-10-13 00:34 · Score: 2, Informative

There's no mention of this on the UK sites, so I guess it's US only.

The UK market is much smaller, and is dominated by cheap clones - in fact most people have 128MB MP3 players.

ANOTHER ipod killer? by ru-486 · 2004-10-13 00:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

For Christs sake, unless it has the friggin scroll wheel it's just another mp3 player! (And it must be lickable)

On the other hand, by SerialHistorian · 2004-10-13 00:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

WalMart's music store tends to have a wider selection of music than iTunes does (There's a lot of really new, albiet obscure stuff that WalMart has that iTunes doesn't.), and it's cheaper per track to buy stuff at WalMart online. The Virgin player would be capable of playing songs from WalMart's music store where iTunes and the iPod isn't.

There are good reasons to discount microsoft's media products as useless, but "they don't have the market share" is *not* one of them!

--

--
Vote for your hopes, not for your fears - Vote Third Party

Re:On the other hand, by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-13 06:32 · Score: 2, Informative

From Walmart's site:

Quickly find your favorites from over 400,000 songs - rock to country, hip-hop to pop. Exclusives, too!

From Apple's site:

Select from over 1 million tracks from all five major and more than 600 leading independent labels.

How is 400,000 a wider selection than a million?

CNET does some editing. . . by Zobeid · 2004-10-13 00:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

It would appear that someone was stung by the many negative comments posted to that article. I can't find the previous quote (from Virgin) about open standards, but now the article has this somewhat more vague sentence:

The $249 Virgin Player, weighing 3.1 ounces, supports MP3 and WMA music formats and is capable of working with various digital music services, the company said.

Of course the iPod supports AAC and MP3 and "is capable of working with various digital music services" too. So I guess that's fair enough.

Re:Buy your music from any download service by Kevinv · 2004-10-13 00:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

not really, apple refuses to license fairplay DRM to anyone else. So Virgin can't make a player that plays fairplay encoded AA4 (they could've supported non-DRM AA4 but since they don't even support MP3 I doubt they would do that).

To make a player that plays fairplay DRM without an apple license would probably violate DCMA (there's a test case I'd like to see). Even Real didn't do that, they just came up with a way to encode their stuff to fairplay so an iPod would play it.

That said -- Apple made a player that supports more than one format, most of them non-DRM. Virgin didn't support any of those, so I'd say Virgin loses in the "open" player category.

Re:Vrigin's been /.ed by toriver · 2004-10-13 00:44 · Score: 2, Funny

"We are all Virgin. I mean, Borg."

neuros by mgkimsal2 · 2004-10-13 00:46 · Score: 2, Informative

The neuros mp3 player will let you record from fm, and even broadcast FM to another receiver (though I never got this feature to work very well).

I've got an older one you can buy for $50 - contact me if you're interested (mgkimsal2@yahoo.com). It's just 128 meg - no HD. You can buy a HD separately if you like the player. I don't recall if there's a MIC line in or not, but there's a built-in MIC you can record from.

--
creation science book

... on Virgin's new iPod killer by DaneelGiskard · 2004-10-13 00:48 · Score: 4, Funny

Given the responsivness of their site it rather seems to be a story on "...slashdot's new Virgin killer" ...

"it's their choice, not ours..." by mgkimsal2 · 2004-10-13 00:49 · Score: 5, Insightful

Songs downloaded from iTunes are not supported. It's their choice, not ours.

I'm glad someone has put it in such basic terms, rather than in small print.

--
creation science book

hmm by catwh0re · 2004-10-13 00:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

iPod mini or new virgin player...
I'd go the mini, mostly because it doesn't look like a plastic remote control.

Now com'on I'm tired of hearing about 'Britney killers', and 'iPod killers'. All these products are merely trying to fill a market that is reaching it's peak momentum, a person will now just buy an iPod over other devices simply because it's 'cool', and their friend has one.

Not many people left in the game who just want a music player. (Hence why the iPod does so well, despite just being a music player.)

Re:"Incompatible" with what ? by Tony+Hoyle · 2004-10-13 00:53 · Score: 3, Informative

What, you mean like This one?

Re:Apple wants itunes all to itself by Kevinv · 2004-10-13 00:57 · Score: 2, Informative

No playing Real content on a Mac just requires the mac version of Real player, this incorporates Real's own DRM system.

Real reverse engineered Fairplay DRM so they could encode Real content to play on the iPod.

Real could've have gone non-DRM MP3 and that content would play on a iPod just fine. But they wanted DRM protected stuff on the iPod so it had to be encoded in Fairplay, the only DRM format iPod supports.

Re:Buy your music from any download service by Proteus · 2004-10-13 00:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

it is Virgins choice not to make it compatible to the iTMS

Except that Apple owns the FairPlay system, which is what makes iTunes tick. Cracking the DRM on FairPlay AAC files is in a legal gray-area, and is likely to cause corporate animosity -- rarely a good thing.

If Apple refused to license FairPlay to Virgin, then Virgin is correct in saying that their lack of iTunes support is Apple's choice.

(even if it's only MP3 they play)

"Digital Music" is not all "MP3". iTunes are AAC, not MP3 (yes, I know, they both use MPEG-style encoding). Pedantic, perhaps, but important. Encoded music comes in lots of formats, not just WMA and MP3.

--
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower

Re:Buy your music from any download service by Kevinv · 2004-10-13 00:59 · Score: 4, Informative

iTunes can encode to MP3 OR (non-DRM) AAC not just AAC. iPod can play both MP3 and AAC (non-DRM or fairplay encoded)

Coolest tech gadget? by pjt33 · 2004-10-13 00:59 · Score: 4, Funny

Surely you're forgetting the Segway!

Re:Coolest tech gadget? by Sneeka2 · 2004-10-13 01:42 · Score: 2, Funny

...Segway

But, does it play OGG?!

--
Bitten Apples are still better than dirty Windows...

Instant karma by chegosaurus · 2004-10-13 01:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

Man says iPod is too expensive and doesn't play ogg. HOLD THE FRONT FUCKING PAGE!

Score 4 and counting. Love those moderators.

Has to be BETTER or CHEAPER by cyngus · 2004-10-13 01:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

If you want to dethrone a wildly popular product, you have to put one out there that is wildly better or quite a bit cheaper. Companies traditionally haven't been able to compete with Apple very much on the better part (perhaps clock speed, for a while), so they've come out with cheaper products. You are not going to derail the iPod with something that is roughly the same at the same price point. A little more capacity or being compatible with a different set of incompatible standards (WMA DRM vs iTMS).

Unfair to Apple by Astadar · 2004-10-13 01:24 · Score: 3, Funny

Virgin can have articles which refer to its devices as "Virgin's new iPod killer", but Apple can't really go and announce "iPod's new Virgin killer."

(at least not without some outcry from the "virgin's rights" people)

--
--Coming up with something clever... please wait...

Slashdot... by JediLuke · 2004-10-13 01:37 · Score: 2, Funny

the Site killer...

i was going to say Virgin killer, but that just didn't sound right.

--

JediLuke
-Do or Do Not, There is no Try

compare the volume by jxyama · 2004-10-13 01:45 · Score: 5, Interesting

just wanted to note that this player is much closer in size to regular (20 GB) iPod than iPod mini. since it's lighter than iPod mini, i imagine it will feel less "solid" and a bit airy compared to the mini. (which would make it feel "cheaper" imo.)

20 GB iPod: 2.4 x 4.1 x 0.57 = 5.61 cu. in.
(40 GB iPod: 2.4 x 4.1 x 0.69 = 6.79 cu. in.)
iPod mini: 3.6 x 2.0 x 0.5 = 3.60 cu. in.
Virgin: 3.78 x 2.23 x 0.62 = 5.23 cu. in.

Real IPOD Killer with Ogg support ? by flyingace · 2004-10-13 01:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

This might be slightly offtopic, however is there really an iPOD killer out there ?

The rio karma stuff I read yesterday here is discouraging. I dont want to thump my harddrive into spinning, when it hangs :(

BTW I dont know if Virgins ipod rival has ogg support. I did not RTFA, as it appears to be slashdotted.

Quick and dirty? That thing is butt-ugly. by tentimestwenty · 2004-10-13 02:35 · Score: 2, Funny

That is one of the ugliest gadget I've ever seen. It looks like a 10 calculator from the "soft-button" era crossed with the world's worst cell phone. Who's going to want to show off that poor mutant child?

The Real Killer... by blueZhift · 2004-10-13 02:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

All of this talk about an iPod killer seemingly every week now is just wishful thinking. The insiders must know that the true iPod killer will be the device that does the following.

1.) Looks really good, like the iPod

2.) Plays _all_ of the major formats including OGG

3.) Works with whatever music store you like

4.) Is competitively priced and reliable

Technically this is all possible. Having a good looking player that plays all of the major music formats is well within reach. The other stuff is where it gets tricky primarily due to copyright issues. If encumbering DRM would just go away the market would explode. It is the need for DRM that leads to the current incompatibilities. Yeah, if there were a single standard it would be better (maybe) but that's not going to happen because there is basic disagreement on just what the end user should be able to do with music and how much and how often they should pay. Right now, the iPod plus iTunes offer what IMHO is the most end user friendly set of circumstances. Yeah, the iPod doesn't play OGG, but nothing keeps me from converting OGG to mp3 and loading it that way. I can even get unprotected WMA on my pod. Unfortunately a lot of the Japanese music I listen to is on copy protected CDs which are a bear to deal with, but after some work (no cracking involved) I can get these on my pod too. No extra fees or subscriptions! I can pretty much deal with music the way I did in the days of making compilation cassettes for my car or walkman. Heck, this is even easier than that was! Right or wrong, I feel more like Apple wants to help me DO things, rather than STOP me from doing things.

Bottom line, no iPod killer is likely to appear anytime soon because the fundamental problems are nowhere near resolution. Microsoft could do a lot to unify things on the Windows side, but ultimately competition among record companies isn't going to allow the kind of unification that could pose a real challenge for Apple's iPod+iTunes dominance. And of course, Apple isn't likely to be standing still either.

--
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started

Re:The Real Killer... by tonywong · 2004-10-13 05:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with your statement.

An iPod killer has to be cooler than the iPod. That's it.

Granted UI and integration are part of the mix, but to be honest, I don't think the public gives a hoot about OGG. OGG doesn't provide joe average with any perceived benefits, so mp3/aac are considered 'good enough'. On the other hand, if there was a new format that was 10x more compression with better audio, that would be interesting.

The working with all stores thing is a bit of a red herring too, as people would be complaining about iTunes music store being too expensive or constrained, etc. It seems that ITMS is good enough as well. However, if a hardware player had software that automatically searched p2p networks for albums etc, then there'd be many people interested (especially lawyers).

Pricing isn't a major issue either, although the top iPod is probably skirting the limits of an impulse buy device. It just has to give a better perceived value than the iPod, whether it's + or - compared to the iPod.

I'll give you the reliability point, but also add consistency of the product too.

Censorship by Anonymous Coward · 2004-10-13 02:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

How about the fact that I like having all the swear words in my music? I got burned buying a snoop dogg CD at a Wal-Mart. The entire CD was reduced to the word "Snoop" over and over again with the rap beats behind it. I don't want to buy the kareoke version, thanks.

Uhhh by Danathar · 2004-10-13 02:53 · Score: 2, Funny

I'm sorry...but the case design is Butt/Ass ugly.

How can I feel "Hip" with that thing?

Missing features by nwbvt · 2004-10-13 03:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

I see no support for ogg vorbis (and yes that is important, I'm not re-ripping my entire CD collection because virgin doesn't know what .ogg is) or gapless playback (my Pink Floyd albums sound crappy when there are millisecond long gaps in between each song when there should be smooth transitions). Unless this player really does support both of these, I'm still shopping for a Karma.

--
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.

Apple's biggest rival by HAKdragon · 2004-10-13 03:27 · Score: 2, Interesting

I honestly think that Apple's biggest rival, as it stands right now, is itself. I know that when the 4th generation iPods came out I was tempted to sell my 3rd gen. iPod to purchace the new one. I doubt that I'm alone in that as well.

--
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."

Re:Shades of Apple from the 80s... by blowdart · 2004-10-13 03:37 · Score: 2, Informative

and the iTMS has the best licensing deal available.

And lo, the MSN music store (launched today, wait for that story) has exactly the same rules.

Other AAC stores... by Otto · 2004-10-13 05:49 · Score: 3, Informative

I appreciate that the parent poster was joking but it is worth pointing out that if the Apple store starts to jack up the prices, there is nowhere else you can legimately purchase the AAC files that they sell.

Off the top of my head:
-Magnatune
-Real's Music store (yes, it sells AAC at 192kbps)
-Allofmp3.com (dubious legality aside)

AAC is by far a more open format than WMA. Anybody could setup a music store to sell AAC files. Now, doing it with DRM and supporting the iPod or iTunes is a different story, I grant you. But Real did it and following their lead might be a good approach.

--
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

87 of 401 comments (clear)