Linux Supporting G5 Liquid Cooling System

Sandor writes "Apple's G5 is selling well and this seems to have helped the development of the Linux kernel on the ppc64 platform: shortly after the shipment of the dual G5 with the new liquid cooling system, it seems that Linux kernel is going to support it really soon."

Comments

Ah hah!

[avalys]

So, this would be perfect for those moments when you're on a Mac and need access to a Unix system for some reason.

Oh, wait...

The point

[MacFury]

Not to troll...but what is the point of running Linux on the Mac, aside from the "because we can!" which is a valid reason. :-)

Re:The point

[Zachary Kessin]

I've wondered that as well. I have 3 computers on my desk, 2 run Mac OS 10.3, and the 3rd runs linux. I access the linux via VNC from one or the other of the macs. The thing is that there are a number of apps on the mac that are just better than anything else out there, at least as far as some of the things I want to do. I have never found linux apps that are as good as iTunes or iPhoto.

Re:The point

[Anonymous Coward]

Cross platform compatibility. If you have an application for which you have the source code, it's advantageous to be able to run the OS on an arbitrary hardware platform. Whether that hardware be Alpha, MIPS, Sparc, POWER, PowerPC, x86, 6502, or whatever, if the OS will run on it, it's a relatively minor thing to take the source code and recompile (assuming it doesn't have endian problems or embedded assembly).

This means that if you can get better bang for your buck out of PowerPC (aka Xserve RAID) hardware, you'll buy Xserves, throw the OS onto it, and start plugging away with your app. Next week, the best bang for buck might be Alpha -- so you buy the relevant systems from HP, throw the OS onto them, and start plugging away. The following week, it might be x86.

Yes, in theory, any POSIX platform should be sufficiently compatible to do the job. In practice, however, POSIX compliance isn't enough.

If you want OS X, it's there. If, however, your app is written for Linux (and it's the only app you want to run, or the others are all written for Linux) -- why bother modifying it so it'll work on OS X if it'll work with just a recompile on the PowerPC Linux ports?

If you don't believe that the Unix market is so divergent, then I dare you: try downloading and compiling all the sources, from scratch, for some major package -- maybe KDE -- on Solaris. Or Tru64. Or HP-UX. Or AIX. It might work on Linux, but you'll have a royal pain of a time trying to get it to work elsewhere, unless it's been carefully written to not use Linux-isms. Believe me, I've been there, and it's not pretty.

Re:The point

[fsterman]

Because I need to install Linux on an original All-In-One G3 (_right_ before the iMac, educational release only) for a server :) Can't do with OS X! Custom apps for Linux, especially Linux kernal extensions. PPC is a pretty powerful processor, clustering it with Linux is easier and less expensive than OS X. Uhh, and more :)

Re:The point

[Bastian]

Nice.

Make sure you mount all of them in a single tall rack, and put it somewhere conspicuous in your office. Then, when December rolls around you can stick a star on top, turn down the lights, and use it as your office Allegedly-But-Not-Really-Nondenominational-Midwint er-Holiday Tree.

Re:The point

[fm6]

It's an obvious combination for somebody who prefers PPC architecture to Pentium, but doesn't want to deal with MacOS. Mac diehards would never concede that anybody can design a user interface better than Apple -- but some of us are thoroughly adjusted to an X- or Windows-style user interface, and don't find it worthwhile to retrain ourselves.

Re:The point

[pauljlucas]

... some of us are thoroughly adjusted to an X- or Windows-style user interface, and don't find it worthwhile to retrain ourselves.

You do realize you can run X-Windows under MacOS X out of the box, right? And you can install KDE, Gnome, or whatever your favorite X-Windows window manager is and run it in rooted mode so you couldn't even tell it was running MacOS X, right? Right?

Re:The point

[Onan]

$0 with every mac.

Re:The point

[byolinux]

GNU/Linux is free software. Perhaps you only want to run ONLY free software on a very fast, well engineered computer?

That's a reason why.

Re:The point

[jcr]

Mac diehards would never concede that anybody can design a user interface better than Apple

That would be because only one company ever did, and Apple bought them for $400M.

-jcr

Re:The point

[nathanh]

Not to troll...but what is the point of running Linux on the Mac, aside from the "because we can!" which is a valid reason. :-)

Because I prefer Linux (honest) and Apple's hardware is really nice. Fortunately I can get the best of both worlds. Viva LinuxPPC.

Re:The point

[nathanh]

Last I checked, the Linux PPC kernel doesn't even support FireWire,

Uhh, works fine for me. External firewire HDD hooked up to PowerBook G4 running Debian.

Re:The point

[tverbeek]

"And you can install KDE, Gnome, or whatever ...."

So major hacking of MacOS is an alternative to replacing it with Linux. Fair enough. But that doesn't mean that nobody will prefer the replacement to the hacking.

Oh, please! It's hardly "major hacking". Installing KDE on top of the X11 that comes with OS X is no more difficult (probably less) than installing KDE, X11, and Linux on the same Mac.

If you prefer Linux over Darwin (which is what we're really talking about at this point) that's a perfectly reasonable preference. (I'm planning to use Yellow Dog Linux on some old Apple hardware I want to use as a firewall, simply because I know how to do it with Linux and I'd have to start at square one figuring out how to do it with a BSD system.) Trying to support that choice by complaining about the OS X UI which is rather easily replaceable is not.

Re:The point

[rb4havoc]

You say that, but I've been using a Mac since the late 80s, and whenever I went to install Linux recently on my PowerBook, I had some diehard Linux users ask me why I wanted to do that. Apparently they think OS X is better...

Re:The point

[byolinux]

What's not native about the Linux kernel running on a PowerPC Chip?

Re:The point

[byolinux]

native resolution is the correct resolution of an LCD, isn't it?

like a lcd than can do up to 1280x968 or whatever, is at native resolution when it's doing 1280x968.

Horse shit

[Erect Horsecock]

The only thing apple will drop the warranty from if you install linux on it is the iPod. If you put linux on your mac and have problems with it they wont provide software support, but will still cover the hardware. ihbt

Re:Horse shit

[tverbeek]

Similarly, our Apple rep (showing off the insides of the new G5 iMac) explained that if you put a bigger hard drive in it, Apple simply won't cover the hard drive, and if the hard drive catches fire and melts the rest of the system they won't cover the damage. But the rest of your hardware is still under warranty.

Re:Sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had MANY problems running linux (be it Gentoo, Debian, or YDL 3.0.1... I've tried pretty much anything with a PPC or PPC64 port) on either the Dual 1.8 or the Dual 2.0 in the newer generations of G5s. I can't recall ever having gotten one to successfully boot from any ISO available online.

If YDL 4 is able to boot and install successfully, I'll happily go out and purchase a boxed set; I just want to test it first. Too bad it won't be 'released' for a bit :-\ I'm very anxious to get it working.

Re:VNC?

[Bastian]

Why use VNC? Wouldn't this do the job just as well (or better)?

Re:Sweet

[Monster Zero]

I know that this is tangential to the upstream posts about problems with Linux on the Apple G5s, but I wanted to at least add the following:

My automated installs of SuSE Enterprise Linux 9.0 on the dual PowerPC 970 (G5) IBM JS20 Blades work very very well. One of my peers installed several from the CD media without incident as well (except the boot partion has to be of type PrEP) while I was working on setting up the infrastructure for the auto installs.

If you can get the academic discount and happen to have IBM PowerPC970 equipment, I highly recommend SuSE SLES9.

Re:VNC?

[Zachary Kessin]

Well i use both to be honest. VNC has a few major features I like. For one thing I can get a full KDE Or Gnome Desktop. I can also shut down the mac and leave the KDE session running. I can also move the session between any of several screens.

On the minus side the way I have things right now I only have 15 bit color over VNC, when I tried to put it to 24 bit mode it gave me very strange colors.

Re:Sweet

[LiENUS]

The article makes it seem like its an issue with the fans, it also appears that the patch will be submitted to linus within a few days so i would expect it in 2.6.10.

not hardware controled!?

[bjarthur123]

do i understand correctly that the fans and liquid-cooling system are not controlled by hardware? so if your OS crashes or otherwise malfunctions, then your CPU could overheat? does this seem like a really bad way to engineer things to anyone else?

Re:not hardware controled!?

[fyonn]

I don't know for a fact, but I imagine the liquid cooled system works the same way as the fans do in the currn g5's. the OS software overrides the bios control. the bios control on it's own will run all the fans at maximum (loud) speed, so without software support for the cooling system in linux, it'll sound like a jet engine.

dave

The real reason to pick Linux over OS X is ...

[Nice2Cats]

... NetHack for OS X / Darwin only seems to come in the girlie man Qt version. Some things in life are simply more important than cool graphics, a consistant user interface, and easy to use multimedia apps.

Noise

[xiaodidi]

If it's like the Xserve, in the absense of OS control, the fans will run at full blast (as mentioned by the previous poster). This is unbearably loud in the case of the Xserve, as I have experienced. It's probably bad for the fans, which will eventually fail. So if the analogy with the Xserve holds, you better not do it. You can try for fun for a few minute.

Re:Noise

[Quobobo]

No, no, no. We're not talking about the OS failing completely, but about it operating incorrectly. Say that it messes up and causes the fans to spin much lower than they should (or not at all), causing massive overheating. I know there's safeguards for when the fans aren't under OS control, but what about when they are and there's an OS problem?

It's posssible that the firmware will override the OS in such a situation, but I've never heard anything about something like that.

Re:Noise

[fyonn]

well, I had some overheating probs with my g5 once (apple fixed them for me) and I'd come to my machine in the morning, the screen was blank and the fans were on "jet fighter" mode, which implies to me that if the OS stops taking an active interest in the fans then the firmware will step in and solve the problem the only way it knows how (max out all the fans). certainly the machine was unharmed when I rebooted it, nic and cool in fact :)

how it determines this I don't know, and I suspect few people outside apple do (unless it's a technical document in the archive), but if osx finds some way to crash badly and lets the fans stop, or not go fast enough etc, then you'll have some comeback to apple. if it happens while you're using linux then I suspect you're SOL. however, I would imagine that if linux fails to control the fans properly then the firmware would again step in to save the day.

it might simply be a case of, if the internal temp gets too high then the firmware maxxs all the fans

the desktop g5 doesn't have quite as many temp sensors as I thikn the xserve does (cpu in and out, per cpu, drive bay, motherboard, exhaust and... umm think thats it)

dave

Re:Noise

[Lars T.]

Hardware: Power Mac G5 Developer Note: Fan Controller

[...] If the FCU does not receive an update from the operating system within two minutes, it begins to ramp up the speed of the fans to full speed.

Penguinistas have no God

[catmistake]

It's not as interesting as running linux on a ratty copy of Moby Dick. Slow it down? The chip is sacred!

NSW Signature!

[MarcQuadra]

dude! not fscking funny!

I'm sitting in the corner of a classroom full of kids checking out slashdot while a computer finishes imaging, and i checked-out your sig. You should really let people know that your sig-link has Work Unsafe images on it, not say "I made a funny".

Re:NSW Signature!

[Bullet-Dodger]

You must be new here. It's supposed to be, "You must be new here.".

Why?

[amichalo]

is this like those other times when people have gotten linux running on their Palm or Xbox or clock radio?

I am not trying to flame but I just don't see the point - OS X is BSD. You've got X11. you can run all sorts of apps from the OS X command line (from apache to fink to vi) so what's the appeal of running linux?

All I coud figure is the desktop environment.

Re:Why?

[amichalo]

I think your new here

I think you're new here. But let's do the math for fun.

800770
- 132545
--------
668225

668225 / 132545 = 5.04

Yes, it would appear you're more than five time newer in fact. Not that anyone is trying to quantify 'newbeeness'.

But to qualify the 'newbeeness', I took a look at your previous posts and I would say that you are still in search of an elusive score of 5 to improve the old Karma. Hint: you will have to do more than post "why not?" to get someone to mod you 'funny' or 'interesting' or 'insightful'. Try posting an observation about the subject, oh I don't know, like this one:

this like those other times when people have gotten linux running on their Palm or Xbox or clock radio?

I am not trying to flame but I just don't see the point - OS X is BSD. You've got X11. you can run all sorts of apps from the OS X command line (from apache to fink to vi) so what's the appeal of running linux?

All I coud figure is the desktop environment.

Re:Why?

[mdarksbane]

There are a few reasons.

1) It's an old mac that barely runs OS X. If you stick a fresh copy of Gentoo on it, especially with a minimalistic window manager, you can get much better responsiveness than on X. I believe it's pretty much the only way to get smooth DivX video on a G3 400 mhz and lower (and even then, you have to play a bit). This also comes into play in a server situation, when you don't need all the niceness of OS X, just some speed and stability.

2) It's what you're familiar with. Sure, OS X is BSD-based and has a nice interface, but it does handle some of the configuration differently from whatever version of linux you might be used to. There's also the concern that not all *nix apps build for OS X, or build easily even if they do. Portage, I know, is one tool that one of my Linux-on-mac using friends refuses to do without. There's also the issues that some people prefer a very minimalistic window manager, which you can *do* on top of OS X, through X11, but you lose most of the speed advantages of doing so.

So, in short, there are some very specific reasons that a very linux-ie person might like to run that on their new ibook or G5 instead of OSX.

Re:Why?

[amichalo]

okay, I'll give your #2 a bit of validity, but as for #1, this article is about Linux on the liquid cooled dual processor G5 - so saying Linux is useful for a box that can barely run OS X won't apply to this box.

as for #2 - is the Linux interface (KDE, Gnome, watver) so 'familiar' and impressive that someone would take all the time to port the OS to PPC? I mean, I have used Linux in various forms for several years, though only ever as dual boot, and I must say that savge Redhat 9, I thought the distributions had pretty poor interfaces, just look/feel/navigation wise, compared to Windows, which itself is so very, very bad.

Oh well, guess it comes down to personal preference.

Re:Why?

[mdarksbane]

Yeah, interface is all about preference. Personally, I agree with you, but I've been using macs as my preferred platform for years.

I don't think it's mostly about the graphical interface, though. It's more the command line stuff, and the programs you're used to having. Sure, a lot of them are available for OS X, but not all, and often not in quite as nice of a form, or the configuration files being where you're used to them, and working how you want. I'd say it's the same reason people prefer Linux's various interfaces over windows. I honestly don't think Gnome or KDE is even as polished as windows, but they aren't the entirety of the interface. That way you interact with the machine on the command line and configuration files are part of it, too.

That said, clustering and fitting the machine into your existing server network are two other reasons. I'd bet that you can get a version of linux that'll make that G5 run certain tasks faster than OS X does. In that case, interface doesn't really matter, as long as you can set it up to begin with. OS X isn't as specifically at scientific applications as some versions of PPC linux.

Point: Don't need GUI, have Altivec friendly app

[AHumbleOpinion]

Consider the more highly technical where you don't need a consumer oriented GUI and where you have an application whose algorithms are well suited to Altivec. For example the US Navy's sonar image processing.

Geek cred (Re:Why?)

[supabeast!]

"I am not trying to flame but I just don't see the point - OS X is BSD. You've got X11. you can run all sorts of apps from the OS X command line (from apache to fink to vi) so what's the appeal of running linux?"

Nerd cred. See, for a while it was cool to dual-boot Linux and Windows, but then all the nerds got out of college and bought a second PC. So then it became cool to run Linux and just run Windows on an old PC for running Quicken, MS Money, or updating the all important resume in MS-Word format. But after a while everyone realized that Linux doesn't need any real processing power because the only games that run on Linux come out long after the Windows versions, so everyone switched to Windows on the fast machine and Linux on the old one.

At that point all of the nerds with cool tech jobs decided to show off by running Linux on on Sun/Dec/IBM RISC machines they bought on ebay for stupid sums of money because at that time there were no sub-1000 Sun desktops. Then the dotcoms crashed, and over the past few years ebay has been flooded with cheap RISC machines from failed dotcoms, so people wanting to show off had to buy some other overpriced RISC machine to run Linux on. Where can you turn to get an overpriced RISC machine that runs Linux but still costs less than a Hyundai? Apple computers!

See, it's all about people trying (and failing) to look cool. It's just like guys who buy a $1000 1984 Corolla, slap on a "spoiler" made from scrap metal and old screws, and finish it off with $9.95 Wal-Mart hubcaps that are supposed to look like spinner rims. Of course, they're still dorks, they still get no pussy, but it impresses fourteen-year-olds who like to post to web forums about how cool they are and how they hate their parents who make them use AOL and won't let them dual-boot the family machine to a install of Mandrake 7.0.