HP Dumps Linux for Windows XP MCE in New Media Player

An anonymous reader writes "There hasn't been much said about this, but HP's new z545 Digital Entertainment Center appears to be a Windows-based re-spin of an earlier Linux-based model that HP unveiled three years ago at the Tech X NY trade show in New York, and which was sold for some time as the de100c Digital Entertainment Center. Seems like the joint's gone downhill ever since Perens left."

Comments

Not quite a backwards step

[Dancin_Santa]

What seems to be most clear from the article is that HP is interested in developing these devices but not interested in actually doing a significant amount of the R&D for it. With Linux, though they had a large amount of control over the featureset as well as the functionality at a low level, they probably spent too much money performing the customizations. With Microsoft doing all the development, HP is free to focus on the look and feel of the device rather than the OS level driver tweaking.

In this day and age, the operating system is pretty much a commodity. It is the software features on top that give a device any sort of real value. Since a device like this never exposes the underlying operating system to users, it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money developing something yourself, especially when someone else has already invested the development effort.

So blue screen jokes aside, this is probably a good business decision for HP. Maybe not so good for those embedded Linux engineers who don't have a job on that team anymore, but fiscally the best choice for the company.

Re:Not quite a backwards step

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually what I think is much more likely is the new generation of DRM products that will come out soon to lock in customers.

Microsoft is pushing DRM-enabled products and the mass media makers mostly agree. So since it would be easier to buy compatable products then try to recreate compatable ones in Linux while facing legal hurdles and patent problems.

Embedded Linux is very mature nowadays, their is nothing that is more expensive when it comes to developing linux platform then windows, it's all already been done by other companies.

The future or DRM media seems much more likely, considuring that this sort of thing is microsoft's and the mass media's baby and they are making a media player after all.

Don't worry. It'll be a flop. There is no advatage of this device over a Laptop towards the high-end, or a tablet pc towards the retarded end, or a pocket-pc type device on the low/small end. (after all a decent NEW laptop can be had for around 600 bucks nowadays, and it'll only get cheaper) They are aiming for a market niche that either doesn't exist or is so small they will fail even if they reach full market saturation.

Re:Not quite a backwards step

[arivanov]

That is besides the fact that if it wants to sell any to "Joe Average Consumer" it will have to support some DRM. As apple does not want to license its own, the choice boils down to Microsoft and Microsoft.

The EU comission was bloody right to start investigating MSFT DRM ambitions. Unfortunately the next commissioner is almost as rabid in Bill-arse-licking as Tony Bliar so we may see this one going down the drain. Bummer...

Re:Not quite a backwards step

[metlin]

I guess this explains the HP branded iPod too.

Which is kinda sad, really.

HP was once a company that was innovative, creative and original. Now they've degenerated into yet another money-hungry company who're afraid to tread new grounds or create something from scratch.

I'm sure that if Hewlett and Packard were to see the company now, they'd cringe in sadness and shame.

Thanks to the eminent Carly, HP now does nothing more than rebrand and sell services - they've laid off so many people who were into core technology and research operations. It's really sad to see what they have become.

Re:Not quite a backwards step

[Donny Smith]

The grandparent post sez:

>> "So blue screen jokes aside, this is probably a good business decision for HP"
>I disagree. What differentiates a HP media center from a gateway or joe blow media center then? he color of the case?

What differentiates them is that they sell this piece of shit at no profit and then, because they know that 50% of people who buy this box also buy a color printer, they will also sell them a printer and make money.

>HP was once a company that was innovative, creative and original. Now they've degenerated into yet another money-hungry company who're afraid to tread new grounds or create something from scratch.

Listen to yourself - "yet another money-hungry company" - it is a Slashdot-established truth that companies' exist to make money. Get over it.
"Create something from scratch" - for something like 5 thousand boxes a month - how much should they charge for their "from scratch" Linux code?
Let's see - 50 engineers * 10K (including overhead) a month = $500,000/month
Spread over 5,000 boxes a month, that's US$500 per box for the software alone, compared to (I guess) US$80 for the Windows version.
Good luck with that!

>Thanks to the eminent Carly, HP now does nothing more than rebrand and sell services.

That's actually untrue, but even if it wasn't, so what - that's what people like - cheap and mediocre shit - and that's what they can sell in volume.
Look how Dell's growing by leaps and bounds - and they're not exactly a bastion of product innovation. What is HP supposed to do?

>I'm sure that if Hewlett and Packard were to see the company now, they'd cringe in sadness and shame.

No, I think they'd smile and say "Holy shit, man, times are tough now - we were lucky that we had the luxury of doing things the way we did! I don't know if we could pull that off today".

Re:Not quite a backwards step

[Khazunga]

Lock into what?
Paying for music?

Oh, so innocent, so cute. :-)
Renting music, paying per view, locking the item to the device... The sky is the limit.

There's nothing more expensive when it comes to developing Linux platform then Windows?
What exactly is that supposed to mean?

That Linux is more mature in the embedded market than windows. Windows here is a newcomer, and can't leverage office. It's (still) an inferior product, and it shows.

Re:Not quite a backwards step

[metlin]

No, you seem to have misinterpreted my points.

Listen to yourself - "yet another money-hungry company" - it is a Slashdot-established truth that companies' exist to make money. Get over it.

All companies are money-hungry - but they can be money-hungry and still do cool shit. Google is an example of that. IBM is an example of that. Even Microsoft is an example of that.

When your company's focus changes from creating new technologies to using technologies that others create, you're going down the wrong path.

TI and HP were innovators in their heyday. Look at HP now.

Your monetary thinking is short-term. Yes, creating new technologies is always expensive on the onset. So what are you suggesting? That we all use Windows forever and ever since creating new technologies and adopting them with overhead costs is anyway expensive?

However, tomorrow when HP comes out with something else, they would have the technology that they have developed inhouse. And that will save them future development costs. The initial investment is always high, however the returns in the longterm far outweigh the immediate losses.

That's actually untrue, but even if it wasn't, so what - that's what people like - cheap and mediocre shit - and that's what they can sell in volume.

That _is_ indeed true. Although HP's troubles started even when Perens was heading out, Carly's services-oriented outlook killed the principles the company was founded on.

Maybe you should read Losing the HP Way.

Look how Dell's growing by leaps and bounds - and they're not exactly a bastion of product innovation. What is HP supposed to do?

See? That's exactly what I meant. HP was not a company that followed what others created -- they were trendsetters of their day, who created new technologies that _others_ followed.

There is a _LOT_ that HP could have done, given their expertise in hardware. IBM is still a bastion of innovation -- and it's not like they are losing out to Dell. HP could equally have done just as well, instead they chose not to compete and rather follow.

No, I think they'd smile and say "Holy shit, man, times are tough now - we were lucky that we had the luxury of doing things the way we did! I don't know if we could pull that off today". .B U L L S H I T.

Who're you kidding? Good companies can always do cool things and still do well, if they are enterprising enough. HP had the financial muscle to make a change, companies 1/10th the size of HP are making new inroads with little to no financial muscle. Every other company had to go through the crucible, I do not see Microsoft cutting down MSR or IBM downsizing TJ Watson or Xerox closing PARC.

HP Labs has laid off _so_ many people (around 6k, if I remember) after the Compaq merger -- and most of these people once were part of the core technology and R&D groups.

I'm sorry, I don't buy your argument.

Re:Not quite a backwards step

[JGski]

It's true that HP has walked away from everything that made it successful between 1939 and 1999. In short they've walked away from all new technology and innovation/invention. On the other hand, nearly all of American industry is doing precisely the same thing with Amercan as a whole. The parallels to the decline of the British industrial revolution are frightening.

Where will the next generation of middle managers come from? The ranks of outsourcing engineerings in China & India. Where will the next generation after that of executives come from? The ranks of successive middle managers overseas. Where will the following generation of entrepeneurs come from? The ranks of all three overseas. Business people make a big deal about "supply chains" but apparently don't see when their own children's "job supply chain" is being destroyed by their own actions.

Strictly speaking HP was far more "money grubbing" during previous periods than they are now - now they simply are in a race to the bottom and to the end-of-life for the HP brand and corporation.

During the previous era, HP lived on mind-bogglingly large margins (as most techology companies do) which in turn funded a healthy R&D: HP essentially invented whole classes of products (R&d) or was the first to make whole classes of product finanical viable (r&D). HP "lived" on the upper leading edge of the Technology Adoption Curve usually entering markets at the inflection after the "Chasm" or 'C' and exiting markets on the trailing edge. Take the integral of the area under the curve and you get the product technology market capitalization and HP's previous strategy was to take most of it!

The "New HP" is now consciously dedicated itself to entering markets on the trailing edge of this curve and exiting on the trailing edge. Basically they are taking table scraps left by others, letting others control their destiny and limiting their own growth potential. Pretty much a recipe for death. HP is already a walking dead company and the current executive team have slandered and debased Bill's & Dave's legacy and triumph! We just waiting for the HP brand to be bled away.

M$ Is Just Bullying

[nukem996]

Microsoft has had this recent trend to push a stripped down version of Windows XP on all "Media Devices." I was at the National Youth Leadership Forum on Technology were M$ launched the Windows Media Center or what ever its called for devices like this. While linux might do it better M$ has done all the hard work for these companies and made it intigrated into Win XP so its "easier for users." Ive played with a few of these and found it anything but easy. This is just M$s way of competing with the iPod.

we shall port linux to it.

[has2k1]

Embedded inside the HP entertainment system are most of the functions of a desktop PC. In this case, that includes a 566 MHz Intel Celeron processor, 64MB of RAM, and a 40 Gigabyte hard disk.

./ers know that whatever has a processor HAS linux in it's genes. I know it will not take long to port the latest kernel to it.

what hurts me though are the $$ that finally get to naughty bill for the embedded windows. HP should consider bare-bones.

Re:we shall port linux to it.

[Zardus]

MythTV would do the application part quite well. Comparisons between MythTV and MCE have made it to Slashdot before.

Re:we shall port linux to it.

[Suchetha]

that's a lot of power. depending on the price point on this it may be cheaper to buy this and use it as an internal webserver/fileserver

suchetha

Re:we shall port linux to it.

[dosius]

./ers know that whatever has a processor HAS linux in it's genes.

Try porting Linux to the Apple IIgs sometime.

Moll.

Interesting opportunity

[erroneus]

I'm guessing we won't be privy to information surrounding this, but if by some coincidence someone with access to the information at HP is reading this..?

I'd like to see some data comparing the two devices in terms of reliability, customer satisfaction, rate of returns and junk like that.

I know why *I* would prefer one version of the product over another because if I know there's Linux inside, I want to play with it. But Joe consumer doesn't usually know one way or the other so I'm interested in a manufacturer's perspective on this. They care about whether a [version of a] product is widely accepted, MTBF (mean time between failure), rate of returns and junk like that.

If the main difference between the two devices is the OS underneath, it would be a terrific opportunity to see the impact that the OS choice makes in the creation of a consumer product is concerned.

Wait a minute...

[Bill_Royle]

HP's been at the top at some point technology-wise?

I'd argue that HP has been going downhill in terms of innovative products even *before* Perens headed out.

Competitive Advantage...?

[DJ XpL0iT]

Is it possible that HP used the earlier iteration of the device to push home it's economies of scale message with Microsoft?

There has been a few stories recently where local governments, schools and SMBs have used Linux as leverage to get MS to drop their prices.

HP is just as much a customer of MS in the OEM market as anybody else...They would have to negotiate what they pay for their OEM licenses that they include with their consumer PCs. Any drop in what they pay MS for the OEM licenses translates into pure profit for HP without changing the sticker price.

Granted that these media centre devices have a reasonable chance of providing market penetration where PCs will not go (I'm thinking the poorer end of the socioeconomic demographic), and the aforementioned "linux as leverage" strategy, MS may have been prepared to give up some percentage on their OEM license fees for ALL of HPs product range to get MS MCE onto these devices.

Re:Competitive Advantage...?

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt it.

It's the DRM media angle.

In the near future everybody is hoping that DRM-enabled digital media will make a big splash, and if you want to play that stuff you need Microsoft.

It would be stupid for HP to release a device now that would be incapable of playing most forms of protected media six to twelve months from now.

I hope that DRM crap won't take off, but I doubt HP is willing to take that risk. So they spend more money on MS's crap in the hope that it will keep their device relevent in the forseeable future.

It's not like it's going to cost them much, almost people who buy computers nowadays pays the MS tax, so worst case for HP is that they'd have to raise the price of their products by 40 dollars (at most).

My Guess

[NotoriousQ]

I think they did this to be able to use WMA format.

I would be surprised if Microsoft provides a linux compatable WMA codec, and I do not know if they license the algorithm or code. Is there any information whether WMA can be licensed to use on linux?

If not, then this is probably the reason.

Re:My Guess

[glMatrixMode]

You know TurboLinux 10 F (http://www.turbolinux.com/products/10F/) ? A commercial distro that comes with legal-in-the-US, proprietary codecs like WMA (and also DVD decryption). From their website

Turbolinux is the first distribution to license the official Microsoft WMF codecs.

So the answer to your question is yes. Now I really didn't want to give it free advertising, as I think that it's wrong to encourage proprietary, closed formats like WMA.

HP are Microsoft's lackeys anyway...

[pandrijeczko]

My missus works at HP and they have always been totally run by the decisions that Microsoft enforces on them anyway, particularly since the Compaq merger.

Through my job it telecoms, I've been to a number of IBM sites in my travels and the Linux presence is openly on show at all of the sites I've visited whereas the missus says she's never heard Linux mentioned at HP, even though she's involved in their internal IT support.

This shouldn't really come as a great shock to anyone - having worked for Lucent in the good old Carly Fiorina days, that woman typifies the role of "corporate whore" and will name drop just about any cool and emerging technology she can just to make her empty speeches sound more impressive.

Digital is no more, Tru64 is dead and HP simply never were and never will be a true Linux player - they're basically just a hardware arm of Microsoft these days.

Re:HP are Microsoft's lackeys anyway...

[Shirotae]

... the missus says she's never heard Linux mentioned at HP, even though she's involved in their internal IT support.

Internal IT support is not the best place in HP to hear about Linux. The people who use Linux tend to need much less help from IT support, which is just as well, because IT support is probably one of the few places in HP that still denies the existence or value of Linux. The idea of HP as a hardware arm of Microsoft is how IT support would like it to be, it is not an accurate picture of either internal use or external offerings.

As for changes that came with Carly, before she came, mentioning Linux was a very risky thing to do. Saying that a project used Linux was a good way to get it cancelled. It turned around to being a good thing to be connected with fairly soon after Carly arrived. There is a very active Linux community inside HP, as anyone who really worked there, and had any interest in the question would know.

Is all linux hipe devices about hacking ?

[La Gris]

I tend to think theses consumer devices sells mostly to users just willing to use them plain.

What is the proportion of hobby hackers, buying theses devices and choosing Linux based ones with stright intention to actualy hack them ?

Do average consumer care much about the nick names of the internal componants they don't even know about it to be there ?

This thing has an operating system ? (Oh great, and how do I enable this function ?)

And it even run Linux inside you know ?! (Well, I just need to watch and record video and music)

Well, it may look a squewed point here.

Who buy what and, what are the consumers IBM is looking at ?

Wouildn't hacker be more satisfyed with these nices open sources projects, like MythTv, Freevo or VDR loaded in a custum mini-itx home build media center ?

As of now, I'm not sure if selling stuffs for hackers is relevant for IBM.

Carly Fiorina

[IvyMike]

Seems like the joint's gone downhill ever since Perens left.

The joint started going downhill when Carly Fiorina took over.

I mourn for HP.

[bmo]

HP is dead. It used to be a scientific/technical company on the cutting edge of science and technology. It has ceased to be anything of any importance. Instead of hardware that people will never part with (I'll give up my 48G when I'm *dead*), Carly Fiorina has turned that company into a "Brand" that markets a commodity. Brands are a dime a dozen. The HP brand trades on its history and when people realize that HP is not the HP of history, the Brand of HP will be worth exactly what Carly has turned it into:

Nothing.

HP symbolizes to me what happens when MBAs and Accountants run businesses. When your goal is merely meeting the numbers at the end of the quarter, you do not see the long view of the future. You simply go with the lowest common denominator, stagnate, and lose customers in the long run. The death of such a company does not take long. Witness the Race to the Bottom between Compaq and Packard Bell. Both are gone, and it only took a year or two to happen.

Thanks, Carly, for killing one of my favorite companies.

--
BMO

Re:I mourn for HP.

[rainman_bc]

So, apart from Dell, and Compaq(HP), who is there for x86/amd64 servers?

IBM is the first one that comes to my mind. Their x86 servers are top notch. Still, thanks to M&A, the amount of choices seems to be less and less... Used to be HP, DEC, and Compaq competed with each other on price... If it wasn't for Dell, I could only imagine how bad it would be...

Why do we care?

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, who gives a damn what OS it runs? As long as it works, let it go.

Its not about HP or WMA, its about Microsoft.

[BrookHarty]

Microsoft stated they wanted to be the major company for home media, and following that trend of embrace, extended and buy out, you can expect more companies to choose microsoft due to cheap contracts with almost free support.

Microsoft is already trying to take the HDDVD consumer market with WM9, this is just another area for them to get a foothold.

It will be the same tactic they have used in the PC Vendor market for years. Microsoft will give the product away, vendors will bite, use the product, then get locked it.

And companies no longer look for the long term goals, just what makes money the next quarter. If HP was smart, they would stick with linux, develop the software they own, and pay no licensing fees. You think they would have learned from their past experiences with Microsoft.

Call me jaded, but I see the trend everywhere, sell/buy now, whatever makes my books look good this year. This is how CEO's dump and run companies, and why mergers are so common.

Now, think 5 years from now, HP's product will look like everyone elses, what will be the difference? Nothing, they use the same software, the hardware is off the shelf. The CEO's will sell HP, another merger. Meanwhile, another billion for Microsoft.

It's good to be the only vendor, the only one choice. Er, lack of choice I should say. I bet Microsoft's stock goes up again tomorrow from this news.

HP Sauce

[ralphclark]

This company isn't really HP, it became something else when Carly Fiorina took over running the company. In any case, Carly Fiorina said at the beginning of this year, that she aimed to put rigorously enforced DRM on all HP's devices. Meanwhile MS is busting a gut trying to sell its new DRM technologies to everyone. It's easy to see how Linux just doesn't fit into that strategy particulary well, and Microsoft does.

Uh...

[SinaSa]

O.K so all of my bias, etc aside. I think this is a good idea for HP. Let's think about it.

1. Assuming a semi stable enviroment (which I class WinXP MCE as) the user will probably never see much of a difference between Linux or MS. They won't see the underlying difference.

2. There is no equivalent of MPlayer for linux that won't get HP in trouble. If they start selling off these things with linux on them they'll have to use MPlayer to get any sort of decent functionality and MS/Apple/everyone else will sue the pants off them.

3. Linux is inherently OSS. It isn't going to be as easy to build DRM checking into it as it is for Windows MCE. Now I'm not sure if HP is onto a good idea or not, but let's say it is. So this thing gets big, and without DRM they become a target for the RIAA. Now they aren't in a situation like Apple/iTunes, but things could still get ugly.

It isn't a dump, they have different functions

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it hard to compare the functionality of these 2 systems.
The first one had:
- a cd rewriter.

It offered:
- playing of music.

The second one has
- 2(!) tuners
- a processor which can easily decode 3 dvd's parallel
- a video card which will be able to play doom3 (once the linux install is done)
- look at the I/O (which is the most important thing)

So, it is easy to see why the first one was a big miss: It didn't have/promise any functionality.

The big minuses about this system:
- a fan/harddisk. You don't want fans or harddisk hums in your living room. They are really anoying!
- $2000 for that?
- No DVB (digital tv), so it is already outdated before it is selling. (you can attach a DVB-USB device. Ah, and which software is going to support that? Just wait for the linux install guys).

hype's over ?

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

do this anouncement means the hype of "linux everywhere" is over ?

let's face it, guys. all products/technologies goes though an over-hype period during its life where it's sold as fix-all do-all solution for all mankind's problems. then people realize that it's not quite like that, the product/technology is loathed because it didn't deliver, the it gets to the point we all hope linux gets to: it becomes a mature technology.

maybe it's already mature enough for the server and some embeded appliances, it's maturing quickly in the handhelds and maybe now it's time to tackle the media-center maturing proccess. maybe not from greedy brands like HP, but maybe from some unexpected source. after the media center is taken, maybe the hype of "linux on desktop" will be already fading, which will means the start of the maturing proccess in this field too, but i'm digressing here.

let's give time for linux to mature as a media-player and wait. a breakthrough in this area will certainly come from a really inovative comapny. i'm just certain it wont be HP.

Hard Work

[jamesl]

Developing software is hard work. Developing products is hard work. Dealing with customers is hard work -- especially big ones like HP. Seeing the future, writing a spec and releasing a feature set requires time, talent, capital and a willingness to take a risk -- in this case, a big risk.

Linux got a leg up on Microsoft when HP released its Linux-based product. Then, no one cared enough to do the hard work needed to compete with MS. Don't complain about a bad decision at HP or another case of MS taking over a new market. Linux didn't lose the game. Linux never came out for the second inning.