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Employee Stock Options?

Evil Butters asks: "ComputerWorld has an interesting article regarding the decline of Employee Stock Options. Long gone are the days when companies would pass out stock options like toilet paper (as you were lucky if it was worth as much). Since most of us are probably in IT related fields, is anyone seeing any turn-around in compensation packages -- especially for IT folk? Everywhere I look, companies are still cutting back and finding reasons why compensation does not need to be increased (except for CEO's of course) no matter what your performance is like. But according to the article, 54% of the top S&P 250 companies are (at least) using restricted stock as performance perks, etc."

31 of 358 comments (clear)

  1. One DNF in hand is better than two pre-ordered by fembots · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Call me old fashion, but I believe the old saying "One bird in hand is better than two in the bush".

    My preferred compensation is profit-based bonus. So if a company is making profit, employees share the pie, it's like dividends to shareholders except you hold your "shares" in the form of employment/position.

    My company's doing an incremental performance bonus, so if this month's profit is up compared to previous month, you get some money added in the bonus pot, and the size of bonus depends on the % increase. This is ideal for employers because it ensures growth, but employees could be working just as good for 5 years in a row, but with the last 4 years without bonus.

    1. Re:One DNF in hand is better than two pre-ordered by mordors9 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But being able to buy a 9 year old stock option when it has more than tripled in value is pretty sweet. Plus you tend to keep it then. This leads you to accumulate wealth rather than piss it away on the latest doodad or geegaw. So it is good for you and your company. You company benefits because it does change your outlook when you own a good sized portion of your company. Of course the down side is obvious. If the stock hasn't gone up since it was issued.... well you know. That sucks then.

    2. Re:One DNF in hand is better than two pre-ordered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're essentially getting paid in risk rather than money. You're taking the risk that your bonus will be worthless, vs. the possibility that your options will have tripled in value at some time in the future.

      I think for most of the people I've worked for, I'd rather have $1 now than the possibility of making either $0.01 or $3 in the future.

    3. Re:One DNF in hand is better than two pre-ordered by operagost · · Score: 3, Insightful
      This leads you to accumulate wealth rather than piss it away on the latest doodad or geegaw.
      I am more than mature enough at 31 years of age to manage my own funds. I don't need my employer to lock them away to keep them from burning a hole in my pocket. I prefer employers who match investments in a retirement fund.
      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    4. Re:One DNF in hand is better than two pre-ordered by ThousandStars · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You're essentially getting paid in risk rather than money.

      Exactly. The higher risk implies at a higher reward. During the dotcom boom, though, that risk seemed low.

      Keep in mind as well, however, that stock options show up differently in accounting land than regular compensation. That's why so many small and not-so-small companies like stock options: those options don't come directly out of cash flow, and if that cash flow never quite materializes then the investors aren't out as much. And if the cash flow does materialize, then the employee makes a tremendous amount of money. Everyone wins. Or at least that's the theory.

  2. Please.. by Uhh_Duh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So I just saw a post that says IT jobs are getting harder and harder to find .. and now this one complaining that compensation packages are going down.

    Do we need to go back to Economics 101 ??

    When there are more people than jobs, they don't have to pay you what you're worth, because there's someone out there, probably equally or more qualified, willing to work for a lot less.

    The days of being overcompensated are over. Count your blessings if you're paid market average (which no longer includes options). Don't like it? Start your own company.

    --
    -- People who hate Windows use Linux. People who love UNIX use BSD.
    1. Re:Please.. by TamMan2000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When there are more people than jobs, they don't have to pay you what you're worth, because there's someone out there, probably equally or more qualified, willing to work for a lot less.

      On the contrary, they have to pay you exactly what you are worth, you are just worth a lot less than you think you are... Your worth (at least in $ terms) is defined by the market.

      --
      "I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
    2. Re:Please.. by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Heck, no longer includes options is the least of my worries- no longer includes health insurance is becoming just as common.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    3. Re:Please.. by coreman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, the reason we're worth 50-60% of where we were 5 years ago is BECAUSE there are people out of work that would be willing to take a deeper cut in pay to be employed. This is certainly true in the northeast. And let's not talk about the lack of raises. The market has slumped and is very flat and a lot of good people are still unemployed or under-employed. It's gone from a seller's market in the 90s to a buyers market now, and there isn't a lot of buying going on.

    4. Re:Please.. by theLOUDroom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      On the contrary, they have to pay you exactly what you are worth, you are just worth a lot less than you think you are... Your worth (at least in $ terms) is defined by the market.

      Not so. That's a really oversimplified view of economics.

      Let's say an engineer can generate $100k/year worth of profit for me, after overhead. Let's say there are lots of engineers out there willing to work for $10k/year. How much are those people worth?
      See the thing most economics classes neglect to point out is that by manipulating your costs and benfits you can pretty much get any answer you want while applying an oversimplified model to a complex situation.

      Your comment reminds me of a joke:
      Two economists are waliing down the street and one sees a $20 bill lying on the ground. He goes to pick it up and the other one calls out:
      "Wait, don't bother!"
      "Why not?"
      "Well if it was worth pikcing up someone would have already done it."

      See my point? In the REAL WORLD it IS possible to buy something for less than its worth.
      A particular oversimplified view of the world might say that no one would ever leave a $20 bill on the ground unless it wasn't "worth" picking up, but that's an obviously silly assertion. In the real world things that are not economically "optimal" happen every day.

      For a final example of the sillyness of your statement consider the worth of someone who is unemployed. Are they really worth $0/day?
      Or, is unemployment itself an example of "market failure"?
      See that's the funny thing here:
      The same theories that say that a person is worth what the market is willing to pay, also predict ZERO unemployment.

      I'm not claiming the whole science of economics is BS, BTW. The points I'm making are (IMO) why there is an actual division between microeconomics and macroeconomics.
      When you look at things on a large scale, it becomes painfully obvious that none of the models being used are actually "true". They're more like trying to fit a polynomial to a set of datapoints.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
  3. The new compensation package of the 21th century.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...is not getting the job outsourced to India.

  4. Taxes... by Duncan3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is all about the taxes, and accounting. Options were great because they were paid for by investors, not the company. That's changing soon.

    Now they need ways to pay non-salary money, that comes from nowhere - print more stock!. And they may as well do things that keep you around longer as they do it. Luckily, printing more stock still doesn't cost the company any money, it's from the current investors that get diluted.

    It's getting really hard to pay your workers with other peoples money!

    --
    - Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
    1. Re:Taxes... by hazem · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now they need ways to pay non-salary money, that comes from nowhere - print more stock!. And they may as well do things that keep you around longer as they do it. Luckily, printing more stock still doesn't cost the company any money, it's from the current investors that get diluted.

      It doesn't cost them much today. But tomorrow, when they need to raise more capital, the market will not value their stock as highly because potential investors will be afraid of being dilluted again. If you can't get enough capital, you have to go for loans/bonds.

      It's easy to cheat in a one-turn game. But it eventually catches up to you when you have to keep playing.

  5. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  6. Rent deposits for Bay Area landlords... by mikael · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... Four years ago I remember reading in TechWeek that landlords were demanding security deposits in dot com share options, rather than cash.

    I wonder if they are still making such demands?

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  7. Stock _awards_ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Mature companies like Microsoft have switched from options (who really thinks their stock will increase enough to make the options valueable?). Instead, they favor giving stock awards; basically like a bonus.

    Large public companies mostly still have employee stock purchase plans, allowing employees to buy company stock for ~10% discount.

  8. A job is not a lottery by JanneM · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't really see the great charm of stock options, specifically as part of your employment renumeration. Options are a crap shoot even at the best of times - a lottery if you wish. Since you're depending on it for stuff like food and housing, work compensation should be as predictable as you can make it. You want to reward me at an IPO - set me up for a hefty end-of-year bonus instead.

    You want excitement - use a bit of your own salary to buy a lottery ticket (or some small-business shares). Or start a business of your own, and get all the pre-IPO excitement you can handle.

    --
    Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  9. Offered to me a few weeks ago by darnok · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was called up for the umpteenth time by one particular startup. One of my ex-workmates is running R&D there, and he must've given them an amazingly glowing reference for me - he rang me out of the blue for a chat one day, invited me to lunch and I found myself at a sort of "reverse job interview" where various execs sat around the lunch table telling me what a great place it was to work, what incredible things they would be doing in the future, etc. and wanting to know how I could possibly refuse to work there.

    Anyway, they've rung me up several times since - I suspect as new rounds of funding come through - and their last offer to me included good old stock options as an incentive. They're planning to go public in the next year or so, and wanted me to sign on now for the promise of wealth beyond my wildest dreams at some unspecified future date.

    It was like being in a time warp, and gave me a bit of a chuckle; unfortunately these days I'm not really interested in working for a small salary while having the promise of a huge payday dangled over my head at some vague date that's somewhat out of my control.

  10. Careful what you ask for... by Tackhead · · Score: 3, Informative
    Careful what you ask for... you just might get it.

    No, not the options themselves. But the whole fight about expensing options.

    Options never needed to be expensed; any dilution from option grants shows up on the bottom line and any analyst with two brain cells to rub together can tell the difference between "earnings" and "fully diluted earnings"

    But folks (including many people here) cried out in favor of expensing them, and in doing so, ensured that Mahogany Row (i.e. senior management and executives) is now the only part of the company has a realistic chance of getting an option-based lottery ticket, let alone winning with it.

    If you're Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, that's just fine: less folks getting rich means more room at the top. If you're the government, that's also just fine: less chance of Joe Sixpack retiring early on a long-term capital gain (or effectively tax-free via an IRS section 83(b) election) means more tax dollars as restricted stock grants are taxed just like wages. If you're Joe Sixpack (or the Fred Winecase hiring them) and either of you are in the business of busting your balls to build something and motivate yourself and/or your employees, however, you're outa luck.

    So be careful what you ask for -- because given half a chance, FASB will give it to you, and they'll give it to you good and hard.

  11. I think the problem is... by Audacious · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I believe that the problem is that there are a lot of other areas which need to be addressed first before stock options are even considered. First (and foremost in my mind) is health insurance, dental insurance, vision, and so forth. My wife and I are having a hard time trying to decide on what kind of insurance to get. This is because of the $1,400.00 she is bringing home, almost $400.00 of that is presently going towards insurance.

    After looking up insurance, sure you can get $200.00 med insurance, but then it has a $10,000.00 deductible on it! Since we pay out maybe $2,000.00 a year max for medical costs this doesn't make sense.

    Coupled with the rising cost of gas, electricity, and food in general - the average joe is thinking more along the lines of "Am I going to have enough money to even eat?" let alone think about stock options which, in some cases, are better used as toliet paper.

    Speaking of taxes (as per the election where everyone kept saying that they were not going to raise taxes to pay for everything) - think of this: Every time the feds print more money it is an invisible tax upon you. Because the more money there is in circulation - the less that money in your pocket/bank/whatever is worth. So Mr. Bush doesn't have to raise taxes - he can just print up some more money and ta-da! You have just been taxed! And ya know what? They don't even have to ask Congress for permission to do so.

    --
    Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke. :-)
    1. Re:I think the problem is... by humblecoder · · Score: 3, Informative


      My wife and I are having a hard time trying to decide on what kind of insurance to get. This is because of the $1,400.00 she is bringing home, almost $400.00 of that is presently going towards insurance.

      After looking up insurance, sure you can get $200.00 med insurance, but then it has a $10,000.00 deductible on it! Since we pay out maybe $2,000.00 a year max for medical costs this doesn't make sense.


      Actually, taking the large deductible insurance plan makes more sense than you think.

      Based upon the number that you give, you are presently paying $4800/yr in health insurance, which I assume has some nominal deductible or copayment. This means that you probably are paying, say, about around $5000/yr for health care (insurance plus out-of-pocket).

      If you took the high deductible health insurance, you would end up paying $2400/yr for the insurance plus around $2000 out of pocket for medical costs. In total, you would be paying only $4400/yr for health care.

      Of course, you would be taking somewhat of a gamble that you and your wife aren't going to need something major, but you can hedge against this by putting the $600/yr difference in the bank each year to cover yourself for a rainy day.

      The whole point of insurance is to handle catastrophic losses. However, it seems as if our current health insurance system isn't really insurance in the traditional sense. Heath insurance covers every little thing with minimal out of pocket expense.

      Most doctor's visits cost in the hundreds of dollars, which may sound like a lot, but if you factor in the cost of health insurance, I would almost rather just pay the expense myself and save the insurance for the things that I wouldnt be able to pay, like open heart surgery. With the way insurance premiums are, it seems like I would come out ahead that way.

      Plus, I would be able to see whatever doctor I wanted instead of being limited to "the network". Since I am paying my own way, I would have more flexibility to be a good consumer, rather than relying on the insurance company to be a good consumer for me.

      My fix to the health care system would be to offer catastrophic health insurance coverage (~$3000 deductible) for lower premiums, and then allow people to put money into a Medical Spending Account on a tax deductible basis to cover medical expenses. For the working poor, I would offer some tax credits to defer the cost of the insurance and to help fund their MSA's. Then people would have maximum choice while still having the insurance coverage in case they are hit by a car or something.

  12. Makes sense from the company's perspective by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 4, Interesting
    In the dot-com boom, stock options were thrown around like crazy. I had 3000 of them myself, once upon a career, and on that job I was just a peon. Didn't wind up being worth anything because they kept delaying and delaying until the bust took over and made it a moot point. Then the company went under, making the point even mooter. (Mootest?)

    Just as companies had to give in on a lot of employee demands back when you could flip jobs as easily as a hamburger, once the boom was over they had control again. And if there's one thing you can count on in life, a company with control will use it:

    "Many of these companies, looking for ways to reward service or pay executives their just perks, are favoring restricted stock, according to a study released last month. Restricted stock comes in a number of forms and with different names, but all versions require continued service by the employee. Stocks or cash tied to business performance are gaining prominence."

    Yup, it's the old 'performance' game. "Sorry, Smithers, you did good work, but the market hit us hard this year so your bonus will consist of this Burger King coupon and a pack of Doritos. Good job, son." When companies can tie things to performance, it's good for the company. No random stock giveways so that even the slackers cash out while the company isn't making a dime. Now if the company does well, you can do well, unless you're poor Smithers.

    "A U.S. accounting standard that requires companies to book stock options as an expense is expected to be made final before the end of the year by the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB). "

    Aha! The other reason! Yeppers, one other immutable law of nature: A company will never do anything that costs them money. Everything they do, even the seemingly nice things, is designed to make them money. So stock options are costing them more? Buh-bye stock options.

  13. Left a job over compesation by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    At my previous job we would work 10 hours days regularly, deal with customers yelling as us because a product was broken. Which we really couldn't disagree with becuase we had told the company it was broken before it shipped, but it had to be out by that date because some salesman asshat decided to promise it to the customer on that date without consulting engineering and/or integration; and, of course, the company would never miss a ship date and make the salesman look like the idiot he was.
    This all got worse as the company did worse and worse, and its stock slipped under a buck. Not only did the company not offer stock options, no one would have touched them anyway. The real kicker was that we had not seen a raise in three years, but we had seen several CEO's (6, I think) get hired, serve for a short bit and then be let go with a generous severance package. In the end, the company did a re-organization and tried to get the Customer Support and Integration departments to move to San Antonio, Texas (I live in Southern California), with the exception of the least trained tech, everyone told them, "hell, no". As for myself, they offered me a somewhat ambigious position in the Engineering department, which was to stay in So. Cal. I was to do software testing and development (at a very basic level), support the local network, and whatever else they threw my way. Oh, and I would have to field support calls that the utterly untrained staff in San Antonio couldn't handle (a.k.a. all of them). I was told that I would get some sort of raise out of this, but for 4 months running, and right down to the last month before the re-organization was finalized, no one could give me any sort of number. So, I found a job elsewhere. I started at a higher pay, by a pretty good jump, the stress is way, way, way lower, and I actually enjoy what I am doing. Plus, the prospect of regular raises are much higher.
    In all, the IT sector is still alive and kicking, you just have to keep trying; and don't be afraid to tell your current company to go fuck itself.

    --
    Necessity is the mother of invention.
    Laziness is the father.
  14. Stock Options Can be a Good Thing by Rathian · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Once upon a time I had several thousand shares of stock options with my old company. I shudder to think how much money I could've made had I blown the wad at the right time... Easily 10's of thousands.

    Could've.

    Back in late 2000 it ran all the way up to 40-something, rung the bell, and then cratered. The whole time I made the mistake of holding onto them out of some odd form of loyalty.

    My biggest tip to those that have them, DO NOT hesitate to excercise them when the stock runs up. A sunnier day might come, it might not.

    As it stood, when I was laid off my options were underwater and not worth the paper they were printed on. I've since lost them, but last I checked they were still underwater.

    Easy come, easy go. I would not take them instead of a hard raise.

  15. Employee Stock Purchase Plan instead by j0217995 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work for a personal bank, privately held where the employees can purchase stock in the company. Most if not all of the employees avail themselves to this option. Its funny when they brought on a new board member there was no non-employee stock for them to give to this board member. Its a great thing working for a place where the list to get stock is longer then the list of employees and anytime an employee sells any part of his or hers, its a large increaces in the price compared to the actual price/share. It will help pay for a house some day for me

  16. Incentive Structures by debrain · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Programmers are a lot like lawyers, value-wise. Like lawyers, the value of programmers is, or traditionally has been, their creativity and intellect. Better tools have reduced the value of that personal asset in programmers, but not eliminated it.

    It is notably different from most engineering in that the products do not require large capital to distribute, once the creativity is complete.

    In this manner, I have often wondered if programmers would work better in limited liability partnerships rather than corporations. A small group of programmers who produce on contract to corporations would be, if well organized, very valuable.

    The corporate structure lends itself to growth in traditional economy, whereas a larger programming companies have, in my limited experience, not been efficient. There are exceptions, like Electronic Arts, I think.

    But the hierarchical view of corporations, looking down upon employees, is flawed in the programming world because the direction of the company is often better felt by the programmers themselves, and management has often had a terrible disconnect from the technical reality, and a tendency to dictate where they should listen. Good management isn't necessarily this way, but many people cling to this management style.

    In a partnership, the partners would be responsible for bringing in clients, the design, the programming, and the effective reuse of code. In a corporation, they are typically responsible only for the programming. I believe savvy programmers would be much better at selecting appropriate clients and choosing the direction of the code. I believe, when it comes to the effective reuse of code, a partnership would have better structures adopted to accommodate it.

    This sort of delegation among partners has been very effective, in my opinion, in lawyer partnerships. I believe the effectiveness could translate into programmer partnerships. Mind you, moving programmers into management positions in companies may have the same effect, but I think the hierarchial structure inherently causes problems. The distinguishing feature being that in a partnership, management would also be programmers, and vise versa. There wouldn't just be a "delegation to programmers" by management, so to speak.

    Just food for thought.

  17. Cash, baby - that's where it is at. by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I too am doing well as an independent contractor.

    I am a three-time loser in the stock-option arena; 1) early 80's "100,000 shares - at $10/share that's a million". Worthless. 2) Mid-late 80s - "hey you have 5% of the company stock!". Worthless. 3) "Recent" dot-bomb. 'nuff said. Worthless.

    You are far better off negotiaing a fair wage, fully funding your IRA, 401K, SEP IRA, what-have-you. Hey, take a flyer once-in-a-while, if you can afford it, but remeber, it's like playing the lottery - "you can't lose if you don't play".

    Paying quarterly taxes is a bitch, getting big fat gross checks is what everyone should get to realize how much we pay in taxes, if you pay your taxes without withholding. If you make even a little bit [I pay over 50K USD year in taxes and don't feel "rich", don't drive a BMW, don't vacation in exotic places...] you see how much "the rich" pay in taxes.

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    1. Re:Cash, baby - that's where it is at. by SubliminalLove · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is slightly off topic, but what the hey, karma is for burning.

      I'm a college undergraduate with about $16,000 a year disposable income, including what I pay for my education. And I do feel rich. I just got back from three weeks in Kyoto, and I'm spending December in Germany. I love what I study (computer science and the languages of the above-mentioned nations), I have friends all over the planet, and the work that I do (programming, and webpage translation for Japanese companies) is rewarding to me.

      If I can feel rich, as well as travel to exotic places, living below the poverty line, and you can't feel the same way about your own life when you're clearly making a couple hundred k, I really think you might take another look at your priorities. Because I'll probably never make even a small fraction of your income, but I already feel wealthy compared to you.

      ~Me

    2. Re:Cash, baby - that's where it is at. by jrumney · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I pay over 50K USD year in taxes and don't feel "rich"

      This is the mentality that causes CEOs to keep giving themselves pay rises. You've got a six figure salary which puts you at least in the top 5% of earners. You are rich, whether you feel it or not. Obviously money is not what makes you feel "rich", so stop trying to get more of it and look at other aspects of your life.

  18. Beware of the 83(b) election! by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As one of many who briefly had a small fortune in stock options in the late '90s, I can tell you from experience:

    • ALWAYS take more cash before more options
    • Sell you options the nanosecond that you can, take the money, SMILE, and don't obsess on the share price
    • Immediately set aside 40% (or whatever your financial advisor tells you) of the proceeds to PAY THE TAXES due on what you just made! If you don't you are guaranteed to take it up the ass at tax time.
    • If you want to file an 83(b) election, make sure you do it at the beginning of the current year so you've got plenty of time ('til the end of the current tax year) to decide whether and when to sell some or all of them.
    • Pay the money for a decent CPA / tax advisor, who knows more about this you'll ever want to. AVOID the asshole "advisors" at the brokerages; all they want you to do is keep socking more funds into their firms and keep the commissions rolling in!
  19. Run away screaming by gelfling · · Score: 3, Informative

    Options ARE NOT, ARE NOT grants.

    Grants are GIFTS of stock outright. Options are the odds that the stock will sell at a lower price than the strike price when you exercise them.

    EVERY single person I know is underwater on their options. Every Single One.

    Options are essentially worthless in this market for the forseeable future. They were a useful tool to attract people by offering them a great deal of other peoples's money in the future.