China to Have Over 100 Eyes in the Sky

gollum123 writes "Reuters reports China plans to launch more than 100 satellites before 2020 to watch every corner of the country, state-run China Central Television quoted a government official as saying Tuesday. A "large surveying network" would be set up to monitor water reserves, forests, farmland, city construction and "various activities of society," a government official said without elaborating. "The aim is that, at any time and any place, we can obtain necessary data on any event through watching the Earth from space," said Shao Liqin, an official with the Ministry of Science and Technology."

Comments

good grief!

[Anonymous Coward]

A "large surveying network" would be set up to monitor water reserves, forests, farmland, city construction and "various activities of society," a government official said without elaborating.

good grief!
"various activities of society,"

translation anybody?

Re:good grief!

[phrasebook]

translation anybody?

"Just like in your country".

Re:good grief!

[mirko]

Exactly, when I was in California, there were many signs like "speed limit enforced by AWAC surveillance" on the streets so I would not dare to say that people are not used to be monitored in others countries.
BTW I also heard many stories about London's video cameras, so stop being hypocryte if there's one thing we can reproach to the Chinese in this very case it is that they were not the first to use this level of technology to enforce trheir regulations.

Re:good grief!

[Raphael]

I doubt that the resulution is sufficient to track individuals yet.

With a resolution of 5cm (2 inches) or 10cm (4 inches), the spy satellites can certainly track people. Source: Resolution of a Spy Satellite.

Note that a satellite does not have to be able to recognize your face to track you (it is hard to see it from the sky anyway). You can be identified by many other details.

Re:good grief!

[Random_Goblin]

I suggest we invade ASAP and liberate the oppressed!

I for one am all for invading ASAP to help liberate the poor Asapians... i'm just having a little difficulty finding it on the map.

Re:good grief!

[Skater]

So...because something similar (well, not really) happens in the US, we shouldn't be annoyed when it happens in China?

We don't like it in the US, either, you know...

--RJ

Re:good grief!

[Ubergrendle]

True... but with the exception of a few anti-war protestors being shot in the 1960s, I think the US can be credited with a bit more social restraint in 'managing' societal activities. I don't recall police indiscriminantly shooting and killing a few thousand unarmed protestors ever in your history.

The US has sunk pretty low in recent years, but still has a far way to go to reach the depravity of Chinese or North Korean societies.

"various activities of society"

[Capt'n Hector]

How ominous. Was this translated with editorializing in mind, or was this official so tactless as to expose the true purpose of such a constellation?

Re:"various activities of society"

[ladybugfi]

Hey, they are not the only ones using satellite pictures for various other tasks. Maybe their purpose is the same as some US activities:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/surveillance/200 4-09-26-civilian-spying_x.htm

In Soviet China...

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet China the sky watch you!

//I am so sorry!

Originality

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our Chinese satellite overlords!

Only the guilty need worry

[g0hare]

Just don't ever do anything wrong (by the standards of the people in power) and you'll be fine. What, me worry?

What orbit?

[EyeSavant]

What it does not say is what orbit these things will be in. Spy satelites normally are in polar orbit so they cover the whole earth as it rotates.

Putting these things in geostationary orbit so that they stay in the same place as the earth rotates is probably too high for this sort of thing.

Hence I guess that these things can spy on the rest of the world, not just China. Or am I missing something?

Re:What orbit?

[Zitchas]

Good question, that. Depending on how much they're spending per satelite it's possible they're using geosync orbits, and simply have spent extra to have top end resoltutions. Although they'd still have to have some mobile and/or aiming capability, since even 100 satelites won't be able to keep the entire country within the view of high res cameras. My personal bet would be with a bunch of geosync sats over areas of significant intrest to the gov, (say, about half of the sats, possibly as many as 75) with the rest being in polar orbits to cover all the rest of the locations that aren't so easily predictable.

Re:What orbit?

[LewsTherinKinslayer]

First of, geosynronous. Sorry, nit picking.

Secondly, China as a state is far more concerned about being able to control its people effectively than it is about outside powers. I have no doubt that these "eyes" could be put to use in other forms. However, I'm more concerned about the further rape of what few freedoms the people of China have left. Its mind boggling.

Re:What orbit?

[Ceriel Nosforit]

AFAIK, the vast majority of spy satellites are also in rather low orbit for a variety of economic and plain rational reasons. 100 satellites should be more than enough for China to constantly keep monitored areas of their country in view even if half of them are on the other side of Earth. Plus this offers the ability to see in different angles, while geosynchronous orbit would only offer a narrow angle.
And if the satellites occasionally fly over other countries, who are the Chinese to complain?

What strikes me as strange with this is that the information about this was actually released. They don't even bother hiding that they are spying on all and everything.
What's the status on those home-made satellite jammers again?

Re:What orbit?

[thermopile]

Geosynchronous, at 22,500 miles out, is simply too far away to be viable.

The other issue at hand here is cost: the average life span of a spy satellite is about 3.5 or 4 years. The optics start to fog over due to radiation from the sun, and on something as precise as a spy satellite, that's a big deal. Plus space junk ... my bet is that China launches 4 spy satellites in useless orbits by 2020 then gives up because it's just too darned expensive.

The maintenance on that kind of system would just be too darned expensive. Any GPS experts out there to lend credibility to this?

Re:What orbit?

[TracerJPN_USMC]

what the fuck? the rape of falluja??? lets see, insurgents controlled that city and used that position to behed american and foreign citizens in the name of allah. and yes, we liberated it. I can say us, for I am a US Marine serving overseas. You want to talk about a rape? How about the rape of Janjiing? Or Nanking as americans usualy pronounce it. When japanese occupied the chinese capital in WW2 and summarily executed over 300,000 civilians. They cut the unborn babies out of mothers stomachs and baynotted them. what the US forces do in Iraq is nothing, NOTHING compared to rape. I admit the US Military has made mistakes. But nothing attrocious has been committed in iraq. after watching the nicholas berg beheding, how can you possibly contend that the us is using improper force in iraq? they are willing to sacrifice innocent civilians to further their political agenda. We all cry and moan about the attrocities committed at our prisons in Iraq, and i agree, they were attrocious, but in the nature of the United States of America, we held those personel accountable for their actions. where are the reprocutions for the savages that beheded the americans? where are the reprocutions for the people that financed terrorists flying airliners into new yorK? I appreciate all the protestors, they remind me that everything I am doing is right.

Re:What orbit?

[Idarubicin]

Depending on how much they're spending per satelite it's possible they're using geosync orbits, and simply have spent extra to have top end resoltutions.

That's a lot of extra spending.

Spatial resolution on the ground is directly proportional to the diameter of the aperture (primary lens or mirror) and inversely proportional to altitude.

By going from a low to middling earth orbit at 500 to 1000 kilometers, to geosynchronous orbit at 36000 km, you need to increase the size of your aperture by a factor of between about thirty and seventy. To replicate the resolution performance of a 1' (30 cm) mirror in low earth orbit takes a mirror 30' to 70' (about twenty meters) across in geosynchronous orbit. That's twice the diameter of the Keck telescopes on Mauna Kea, three times the diameter of the as-yet-unlaunched James Webb Space Telescope, and eight times the diameter of Hubble. (My back-of-the-envelope number is a resolution of a little better than one meter with those mirrors).

Also, putting stuff into geosynchronous orbit is significantly more difficult than putting stuff in low earth orbit. (For commercial launches, lofting a payload to geosynchronous transfer orbit sets you back about three times as much on a per pound basis.)

The physics and economics strongly argue for many satellites in lower orbits. There's the added benefit of being able to spy on other countries, too. The Chinese government doesn't need satellites to spy on its own people--it can do that with human intelligence (spies), ground-based cameras, and aircraft/drone surveillance.

Re:What orbit?

[TracerJPN_USMC]

the US still is in afghanistan, i have 3 Marines from my platoon there. I guess it doesnt rate the shock news coverage that Iraq rates. As to the rest of your points, i was pointing out the view point as presented by US media. I personaly don't think that prioners made to stand for a few hours a day in capes and hoods is uncruel when US Marines and soldiers are standing 18+ hours per day in full MOPP (mission oriented protective posture) (ie nuclear biological chemcial gear weighing in a 50 pounds plus) and are handing out food and water and fixing the water and electrical lines that power Iraq and are being blown up by IED (improvised explosive devises) to provide servcies to the innocent. but i guess their lives are expendible, right? while those who massacre and desecrade them should be revered for defending their arab right should be praised? Regaurdless of your opinion of WHY we went into iraq, look at what we are doing for them. Look beyond the news. We are honestly trying to help the iraqi people. and we are being slaughtered while we do so.

Re:What orbit?

[rzbx]

"But nothing attrocious has been committed in iraq."

So what do you call the death of over 1,000 Americans and thousands of Iraqi's? A mistake? I notice you talk a lot about "reprocutions". Yet you fail to realize that the terrorists goal is everything that goes along with "reprocutions". We are fighting terror right? So how does any form of infliction of pain (physical or mental) help prevent terror? If the wish of the U.S. is to stop terrorism, then why promote it? Soldiers are about the only Americans most Iraqi's will meet. Now how does everything going on in Iraq look to the Iraqi people? Do we need a history lesson about previous wars in Iraq and the impression it has left on the Iraqi people? They don't think the same thoughts you do. If a friend of yours was locked up in an Eskimo prison cell being treated the way Iraqi prisoners are being treated now, would you be as willing to accept that the Eskimo's just made a mistake?

"I appreciate all the protestors, they remind me that everything I am doing is right."

I seriously hope you don't actually beleive that. Do you ever think that maybe if it wasn't for the protestors that many more would die? Does imperialism mean anything to you? The Roman Empire? Napoleon? Your a soldier right? A soldier must follow orders. That is part of what is forced upon every soldier in the military, to follow orders and do it without hesitation. This is one of the major reasons for bootcamp. A soldier is a part of the military agenda, but is not involved in deciding what that agenda is. Anyway, I'm going off on tangents. The problem is, that your arguing emotion. Retaliation is an emotional subject. We could retaliate forever and ever against terrorists, because the act of retaliating helps promote terrorism. The "War on Terror" is different. We can not treat it like wars of the past. You point out all the information that supports your argument, but ignore all that is wrong with this war. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe we need no crticism. So instead I'll just happily smile when a president says we need to go to war with country X and support everything that goes along with it, or will I? That is why I am not a soldier following orders, but a citizen that questions the choices of those elected. I have nothing against soldiers. I disagree with those giving the bad orders. What each soldier decides to do during a war is another issue. And those that allow it to happen is yet another.

So tell me, what is it that your doing that is so right? And is anyone that criticizes the war wrong?

In other news....

[Viceice]

China legalises nude sun bathing. An official, quoted on condition of anonymity, said that studies have shown that Chinese women, especially those between the ages of 18 to 29 seem to suffer from low levels of vitamin D and are thus encouraged to sunbath... in the nude... on clear cloudless days...

Nothing new

[Flyboy Connor]

The US have spy satellites up. Europe wants spy satellites up. Don't complain if the Chinese want theirs up there too.

Makes sense

[Britz]

This makes a lot of sense for China. It is a vast country after all that is hard to monitor. Not only a lot of infrastructur is missing, but also the local authorities have a really bad tendency to cover up any problems including large scale environmental disasters. That is one of the problems with authorian rule. So being able to monitor the provinces from Beijing gives them a lot of control.

Do You really think China has now the technology to monitor people from the sky? I doubt even the US has this. But who am I kidding? This is Slashdot of all places so I better get my tinfoil hat to blend in with the crowd.

Racist

[ThatsNotFunny]

And I always thought it was the Japanese who liked taking pictures...

More info. (May be original press release)

[Ceriel Nosforit]

http://service.china.org.cn/link/wcm/Show_Text?inf o_id=112464

Highlights:

Sun Laiyan, director of the China National Space Administration (CNSA), said that a large satellite-based earth observation system will also be built by 2010. The system could be used for observation of land, atmosphere and ocean within China, its adjacent areas and even the entire globe.

Sun said that China will develop a new generation of polar orbit and stationary orbit meteorological satellites, high-performance resource follow-up satellites, oceanic color and dynamic observation satellites.

To please privacy international...

[technogogo]

...these should be fitted with giant flash guns so we know when they are taking our photograph.

It can mean more than espionage, you know

[Moraelin]

There are lots of "activities of society" that don't require a tin-foil hat, you know.

E.g., traffic congestions. If you can see those from the sattellite, you have a head start in telling people to take other routes.

E.g., fires. If in the middle of a forrested area you see a big bright infrared spot, you can react before the fire wiped out several square kilometres. And you'd be surprised how many forest fires are due to "activities of society". (A.k.a., idiot tourists.)

Even if it is China and the mandatory knee jerk reaction is "chinese govt==evil", it's actually easier for them too to watch for such _big_ things, than to try to track an individual dissident by sattellite. If they want to track an individual person, they can just send an agent. It's cheaper and doesn't lose track each time the target goes into a house or bus.

1984??

[Savage-Rabbit]

Europe wants spy satellites up.

AFAIK some European countries already have spy satilites up, first among them Russia. What makes the Chinese ones special is that they will not be for spying on the Europeans, Americans, Australians or Africans. Nor are they intended to keep an eye on the Middle east. They will be a instrument with 100% coverage of Chinese national territory for the Chinese govt. to use for monitoring the Chinese . That makes them uniqe. Of course monitoring "various activities of society" can cover anything from something as innocent as traffic control to spying on the private citizen. Even so, judging from the limited information in this story, these plans look more like a rather innocent survey/management network than a 1984-esque Orwellian spy apparatus.

Re:Today, in China.

[mumblestheclown]

But your statement is complete tinfoil hat, even if you don't see it. Your "intuition" is not a fact, even if you confidently say "without a doubt."

In fact, the fundamental problem that this article is highlighting, that an autocratic, antidemocratic, and abusive regime in China is using satellites to spy on its own citizens may not even be true in China in 10-20 years as China may (though it is of course by no means a certainty) evolve into a democratic, accountable state by that time.

For those of you just itching to get in your 2 cents about how the USA is likewise an autocratic blah blah state.. zip it. While I hate GWB, the Patriot Act, etc as much as the next guy, such things are in an absolute sense truly insignificant compared to what still goes on in China where many citizens still lack basic freedom of movement inside the country to say nothing of the extreme repression of information and speech.

Zip it? So much for freedom of speech then?

[WIAKywbfatw]

Ah, there's irony for you, huh? You're happy to talk about China's shortcomings but not those of your own nation, the one that's supposedly "the land of the free".

Look, I don't live in a utopian society where everything is perfect - nobody does - but I think you have to at least acknowledge that, if your an American, measuring your freedoms against those of China (or Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Wherever You Want To Invade Today (TM)), rather than against, say, your own Constitution is a sad state of affairs.

When you start accepting the small injustices and intolerances, even the ones that don't affect you, then you've let the door open a little bit. From there on, opening it wider and wider becomes easier than you think.

Freedom isn't the freedom to say just the popular things, it's the freedom to say the most unpopular stuff, even the stuff that makes 99 percent of people want to puke. Start oppressing one person's rights and you've oppressed everyone's.

Bottom line: if you're the land of the free then be the land of the free, not the land of the mostly free.