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Buggy Voting Machines
dkleinsc writes "The NYTimes is running an article arguing in layman's terms that voting machines are inherently buggier (Sperm sample required. Sorry ladies) than most software systems because they are not tested properly. A fun quote: "Extensive discussions are under way at sites like VerifiedVoting.org, CalVoter.org, and the "news for nerds" forum Slashdot.org about inexpensive, practical ways to make automated voting as reliable as, say, buying books online. Their recommendations make sense."" We makese sense? Wah?
Some poor old grandmother is going to read that, type in the url, and end up seeing goatse. Way to go!
stuff
That should have been the headline for this article.
==
no sig
"practical ways to make automated voting as reliable"
Is the winner preselected and 'voting' automated to make it happen?! Oh wait...
Something tells me that NYT reads /. with a +5 comment threshold, and deprecates "Funny".
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
George W. Bush have also recommended: James Buchanan, Ronald Reagan, Dad.
Sounds like a plan to me...
Saying slashdot makes sense is just a way to discredit the anti-voting-machine crowd. People will check out the dot, and they'll think it's a bunch of kooks complaining about this stuff.
No registration required link
While voting machines may be inherently buggy, I think in certain cases, the paper ones weren't much better. It also doesn't help that some voters can't read and/or fill out a paper ballot. For those of you that remember the 2000 election, the process of filling out a paper ballot was just as buggy, where bugs were "incomplete marks", "multiple marks", or "hanging chads".
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Ever since I was a kid, my mom has been taking me into the voting booth (either to teach me the importance of voting, or for lack of babysitting). This year I voted for the first time, and it felt great. I don't mean emotionally, I mean physically. When I pulled the levers and flipped the switches, I was actually convinced that my vote counted. It was the neatest feeling.
It was rigged. Look at the Berkley paper backed by MIT.
a. The Supervisor of Elections has unreasonably delayed providing information.
b. The certification was based on inadequate and incomplete information regarding the election results.
6. Some or all of the information requested on Nov. 2, 2004 by Black Box Voting is still missing from 59 of the 179 voting precincts, including portions of or all of the voting machine tapes for those 59 precincts, which are a vital part of official paper record of the election results from those precincts.
7. Complete information on problems with the voting machines prior to and during the election has not been provided.
8. Complete information relating to memory card failures during the election has not yet been provided.
9. Only a partial list of the transmission logs from the Accu-Vote optical scan server has been provided. Despite repeated requests, the Elections office has refused to provide to the Volusia County Democratic party the official election results, now stating that those results will not be available until December 1, 2004.
10. The Elections office has provided incomplete data regarding Early Voting and Absentee ballots. The Supervisor of Elections, for example, reported that the total number of absentee ballots and Early voting ballots, combined equaled 89,999 votes, yet the published figures for those totals is 84,100 votes, leaving over 5,800 votes unaccounted for.
11. In addition to the pattern of delay in providing the requested information, the true election results are in doubt because of numerous violations of election law procedure and unanswered questions concerning the results.
12. The polls were opened early and closed late during Early Voting.
13. Many public records, including one signed results tape from a voting machine were found in the trash. Many of the requested records not furnished by the Elections office have been found in the trash. Results from the tapes found in the trash do not match the results of the copies of tapes furnished.
14. An email from Mark Earley, of Diebold Elections Systems, Inc., to the Elections office was provided which asked the recipient for an explanation of why Volusia County had more memory card failures than all of their other Florida customers combined, and then asked why the 17 memory card failures which the Elections office reported on November 3, increased to 25 before November 12, 2004.
15. The reported memory card failures were significant and troubling and included reporting zero votes after one week of voting, requesting permission to upload votes before the voting began, and messaging whether the card should be reformatted.
16. According to a statement by the Supervisor of Elections on November 17, 2004, the GEMS computer is not networked, and is "stand alone." The furnished computer logs show evidence of at least two attempts to remotely access the GEMS central tabulator, which is claimed to be secure. A computer screen shot printout on November 17, 2004 (found in the trash) shows that the GEMS computer at that time had two networked hard drives.
From Chuck Herrin's info sec website: It's an amazing demo. Be sure to check out the associated FAQ which is as easy to read for the layman as for the techie, and full of citations. Share it with you friends and family !
For you party-liners out there, Chuck is a Reublican who wants you to understand that this is not a partisan issue.
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin
I think all slashdotters are probably smiling right now. I'm even about to cry. We're sharing a moment.
Zoeith
If you think ladies would have a problem providing a sperm sample, you REALLY don't get out enough.
Sincerely,
A Concerned Slashdotter
at least here in manitoba, canada, we use a process where you a) get a piece of paper with straight lines connecting the checkbox with the person you are voting for, b) you place a checkmark on the candidate you wish to vote for c) you feed it into a machine which records your vote, and d) if there are any discrepencies, all the ballots can be counted by hand. all the ballot stations are manned by volunteers representing all parties. I can't understand why places like the ukraine and the USA have made this process more difficult than it should be. It's not like any one party is beter than another. Perhaps its just nations that start with the letter U.. Ukraine, USA, Uganda .. Uruguay.. heh. Uruguay.
I TRUST computers. When I first used A.T.M.'s, nearly 30 years ago, I carefully saved receipts in a folder and matched them with the bank's monthly statement. Now I sometimes stuff the receipts in my wallet, but I almost never look at them again. The only banking error I've encountered in all those years was when a human teller left a final zero off a deposit I had made.
I still pore over credit card statements, but mainly to see whether some person, not some machine, has issued the proper refund credit or made an improper charge. I've sent e-mail messages to the wrong people by mistyping an address or hitting the oh-so-dangerous "Reply All" button, but never because the system routes it where it shouldn't go. When I travel, I assume that the e-ticket I booked through my computer will be valid and that frequent-flier miles will show up in my account.
Yet when I went to my polling place in Washington on Election Day, I waited an extra half-hour in line to cast a paper ballot, instead of using the computerized touch-screen voting machine. Am I irrational? Perhaps, but this would not be the evidence.
A columnist in The Washington Post recently suggested that nostalgia for paper ballots, in today's reliably computerized world, must reflect a Luddite disdain for technology in general or an Oliver Stone-style paranoia about the schemings of the political world.
Not at all. It can also arise from a clear understanding of how computers work - and don't. The more you know about the operations of today's widely trusted commercial computer networks, the more concerned you become about most electronic-voting systems.
The phenomenal reliability of the systems we trust for banking, communication, and everything else rests on two bedrock principles. One is the universal understanding in the technology world that nothing works right the first time, and maybe not the first 50 times.
When I worked briefly on a product design team at Microsoft, I was sobered to learn that fully one-fourth of the company's typical two-year "product cycle time" was devoted to testing. Programmers spend 18 months designing and debugging a system. Then testers spend the next six months finding the problems they missed. It is no secret that even then, the "final" software from Microsoft, or any other company, is far from perfect.
Today's mature systems work as well as they do only because they are exposed to nonstop, high-stakes torture testing. EBay lists nearly four million new items each day. If a problem affects even a tiny fraction of its users, eBay will be swamped with reports immediately.
Millions of data packets are being routed across the Internet every second. If servers, domain-name directories or other components cannot handle the volume, the problem will become apparent quickly. Years ago, bank or airline computers would often be "down" because of unforeseen problems. Now they're mostly "up," because they've had so long for flaws to become exposed.
The second crucial element in making reliable systems is accountability. Users can trust today's systems precisely because they don't have to take them on trust. Some important computer systems run on open-source software, like Linux, in which the code itself can be examined by outsiders.
Virtually all systems provide some sort of confirmation of transactions. You have the slip from the A.T.M., the receipt for your credit card charge, the printout of your e-ticket reservation. If your e-mail message doesn't go through, there is still the copy in your "Sent" folder. This is the technology world's counterpart to the check-and-balance principle in the United States government. The first concept, robust testing, protects against unintended flaws. The second, accountability, guards against purposeful distortions.
Which brings us back to electronic voting. On the available evidence, I don't believe that voting-machine irregularities, or other problems on Election Day, determined who would be the next president. The appare
I'm not a very experience programmer by any means, but why the hell would it be so damn hard to make a voting machine that works properly? It seems like a simple concept that even beginning programmers could do a decent job of creating.
Seriously folks, stop worrying about Ukraine and start looking at what went on in your own back yard. The Ukranians seem to be handling things quite nicely themselves, but where are the mass protests in the US?
I heard that if you pressed UP-UP-DOWN-DOWN-LEFT-LEFT-RIGHT-RIGHT-A-B-A-B it takes you to a hidden screen that lets you put in how many times you want your vote to count
yeah well here in america actually GW won fair and square. i think we hold the most transparent election process in the world
This article compares India voting machines vis-a-vis Dieblold.There was also a previous slashdot story on this. These machines are much simpler and hence lesser prone to bugs.As discussed by the article , faith in this machines have been established simply because they have been used over the past few years by over 670 million registered voters in elections at national as well as state levels.
This simple article explains the EVM's used
Electronic voting should be as easy as standard, non-electronic voting. My parents couldn't buy a book of Amazon if their life depended on it. Why are we making this so hard. Electronic voting should work as follows:
1. The voting machine does not keep track of any votes. A voter will walk up to the machine and be presented with a list of candidates. Next to each name there will be a box. The voter makes a mark in the desired box with an electronic stylus. A write in blank will be available if needed.
2. At the bottom of the screen there will be two large boxes. One will be red and says "I wish to make changes on my ballot." The other box will be green and it says "I am satisfied with my ballot." After touching the green box another screen will come up. It will basically say that by touching continue you will be done voting. A go back button will be provided in case someone got to this screen by accident.
3. After clicking done, your ballot will be printed out at the machine you are at. This will allow you to look over the completed ballot before having it counted.
This system is the best of both worlds. The voting machine itself does not count anything. It is just an interface for making the completed ballot. There is a paper trail with this system. This system will also cut down on waste due to extra ballots that were not used. Finally a change the ballot at the last minute will not be a big deal since the interface is electronic. The ballots won't have to be printed weeks in advance.
For the last two evenings, I've been slowly going through the data on machine problems at EIRS
and I can say that while voting machines in general are not something much more complicated than an application preferences menu, the ones we used here in the U.S. in 2004 ARE inherently buggy.
Even when they were not switching votes, or crashing in the middle of voting, there were fundamental user interface design issues.
For example, a large number of complaints were lodged because machines would not allow a person to vote a party line, and then modify one or two votes. Any sensible designer knows how to do something like this right.
Another problem is that they had a big flashing vote button that turned on as soon as a ballot had any votes on it. So if you were at the first screen, and you voted, the vote button would start flashing. Any sensible designer would know that some users would think that they should press the vote button to get to the next screen, but when pressed, the ballot would be cast and the ability to vote on all the other candidates would be lost.
Finally, there were machines that showed you a review screen, but on the review screen, hitting enter, which is the key used normally to scroll down, to see if there is more, would actually alter the first vote on the screen. On a review screen. Ah and cooincidentally, the first vote on the screen was for president and hitting enter would switch it to Bush.
Whether deliberate or caused by some of the most incompetant programmers on the face of the earth, that is some buggy shiznit.
(P.S. I'll be posting my results when I'm done, probably on daily kos. I'll link that somewhere in the page you get when you click on my signature.)
Someone had to do it.
It may seem funny to you, but it looks like a troll to me. I'd vote for modding the parent down to flamebait, but there's no paper balloting so I can't trust you to count my vote.
No wonder it's intelligent and no particular surprise it mentions Slashdot -- the article was written by James Fallows, who as a long-time writer for The Atlantic was also a long-time technophile, or at least one who appreciated the productive uses of technology. I venerated him because he was a very public user and proponent of Lotus Agenda, a product which was unfortunately orphaned way back when and whose intelligence and functionality have never been duplicated.
The world's first national vote in which citizens could vote via Internet took place in Switzerland on September 3. The country, which has a direct democracy that calls on citizens to vote on issues as often as four times a year, has had much success in allowing Internet votes in several cantons over the past several years. Swiss officials, recognizing the success of the local programs, became convinced that it was secure enough to try it out in four Geneva suburbs on a national referendum. Citizens of those regions were allowed to choose between postal voting, going to a traditional ballot booth, or voting via Internet.
Geneva's e-voting system uses a method of two-factor authentication that provides foolproof security. Citizens receive a card which gives them their option of voting over the internet, by mail or in person. The card includes a 16-character personal ID code, and a four-character security code, similar to a PIN number, which voters must scratch off to reveal. The voter who chooses the online option then visits a Web site and types in the personal ID code, and then a secure connection is established. Then, an online ballot form is provided. Before casting their vote, the second authorization factor must be entered, and the voter then types in their security code, along with their date and place of birth.
Because the online voting system is tied to a single register of voters, authorities can protect against voter fraud (multiple voting). The safeguard guarantees that a person can vote only once, whether in person, by mail or on the Internet. There are, of course, no hanging chads, and the results are extremely accurate. It took Swiss officials 13 minutes and five seconds to count the online votes in September's ballot. Twenty-two percent of voters from the test regions cast their ballots online.
You sir, are a fucking idiot. And I mean that in the best possible way. Right now, the biggest obstacle to democracy in this election is the combined work of both the Republican "lose the tinfoil hats" Party, and the Democratic "it doesn't matter" Party.
Yeah well, guess what. The President wasn't the only question on those ballots. Volusia county wouldn't have changed the outcome of the presidential election if it had voted 100% Kerry. But what about state elections? County seats? Mayors? Democracy must happen at all levels!
Why don't you get over your obsession with Kerry and Bush, and look at the big picture here? Accept that the truth is that Volusia county for certain has MAJOR human-created voting problems (or are you going to tell me that a bug in the machine made the election officials "forget" to sign the forged results that Volusia has been giving out as real? BBV pulled the real signed results out of the trash. Or are you going to tell me that BBV has a forgery, that they successfully forged the signatures of ALL of the election officials and the real document was accidentally signed in invisible ink?) and other counties may have had problems either human-made or machine-made.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Canada votes with plain paper and manual tabulation. They finish their counting in a single night.
In any case, you can trust the individual vote totals on the machines (with manual central tabluation) just so long as you do random audits, or targeted challenge audits to check for irregularities.
Any audit that turns up a problem would trigger a manual recount of all precincts.
BTW, I don't think there is anything wrong with hand counting. You may think it's too expensive. But what is Democracy worth to you???
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The *counting* portion of any voting system *MUST* be wide open, and subject to public scrutiny, and there *must* be a physical (paper being the most logical) record of an individuals vote, that *that* individual can verify correctly recorded their votes.
The mechanism used to *create* that paper record doesnt matter, so long as it remains in the posession of, and can be inspected by, the individual casting the vote, after it is created and before it is counted. It can be done by hand, or with the assistance of some ATM-like machine that then *PRINTS* the paper which neither does any counting, nor keeps any record of who is voting. In fact other than the printed output, it should keep no records whatsoever. It should not even know the identity of the voter.
The paper vote record itself, should also not have any sort of information which could identify *who* the voter is. The machine used to read and count the paper record *MUST* be open, auditable and its entire process and function must be fully and publically documented. After counting, the paper ballots should drop into a box, or otherwise be retained to allow for recounts.
It's been pretty well established that we won't have a fair and functional voting system until we have a considerably greater level of transparency and accountability.
You won't have transparency until every part of the voting process has been moved into the open source domain for thorough examination and auditing. The current systems are all closed source, and the system which "prevents" cheating is controlled by the same people responsible for gerimandering, and is readily bypassed via "emergency" updates.
Furthermore, we shouldn't have to file Freedom of Information Act requests in order to have ballot results released. This information should be freely available, preferably on the websites of the various counties that do the tallying.
Also, a person's vote absolutely must be recorded in a non-electronic manner at the time of polling. Paper ballots are essential. Even if those paper ballots are printed by the voting machine after the voter casts their votes, it must be produced. Otherwise, a recount is no different than refreshing the calculations on a spreadsheet.
While this is all a good idea, it isn't like a system like I described actually exists. I believe MIT formed a group to produce such a system, but four years later they've mostly just produced research papers. There is a group which is currently working on such a system, but they are currently suffering from severe under-funding and various bits of social blockage. They're the Open Voting Consortium. I strongly urge everyone to go check them out.
Wake up - the future is arriving faster than you think.
The huge irony here is that a "voting program" is about the simplist thing you could write. Thousands of people have written RPG character generators that are more complicated than a voting program.
The fact that they've fucked it up so badly strongly implies that the fuckups were all intentional.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Easy, I'll soon have a low ID#, and you'll have a godolithic one....
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
You don't have to be a republican or a democrat or a supporter of a third party to want everyone's vote to count. That should be what everyone wants. And the only way that will happen is with constant vigilance.
Voting may seem similar but it is VERY different. You get a statement every month to reconcile against your personal records. There is an individual trail that you can take to the bank and say "see, you fucked up!!! Give me my money back!!!"
No such burden exists for voting systems. The customer does NOT receive a statment in the mail.
Furthermore, I would suggest that the "once a year" model of "use" should NOT be a problem since these systems are SO FUCKING SIMPLE!!! Any developer worth his salt could design tests to find errors. And any company worth it's salt would EXTENSIVELY test their software before deploying it to the field.
The "private" nature of voting means that any system designed to allow a voter to "check", will probably allow others to "check" as well. The best solution I could think of is smartcard driver licenses that digitally sign your vote. But even then, the motor vehicle dept will have your "private key" as well as any other personal parameters.
I guess one could add randomly seeded keys to the voting machines and randomly generated numbers to hash each vote ID. But those to seem succeptible to precinct worker mischief.
In the end, the easiest solution is to BAN, the on-screen vote verfication phase. Vote verification takes place after a ballot is printed behind glass. If the voters rejects the ballot it is visibly voided in some way and the voter get to change their choices. If it's accepted, it's automatically placed in the ballot box.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
The best e-tally I've seen in the last while (and I've voted in 3 general elections in the past 5 months) is a paper ballot which you put into a cardboard sleeve when leaving the polling booth (so no one can see your vote). The sleeve with ballot is taken to a counting machine. It looks a lot like an electronic sheet feeder. You place the sleeve with a bit of the ballot sticking out face down into the feeder. It pulls your completed ballot out, and electronically records your vote. There is a small digital display showing your vote for 3 seconds. You can confirm that it scored your ballot correctly. The display blanks, and the paper copy of your ballot is stored (the machine sits on top of a large box which holds completed paper ballots). Electronic reporting is complete and exact, and there is a paper trail for recounts if necessary.
I have a low-tech solution to the voting problem: Use paper ballots.
Here is the process:
- A voter arrives at their polling station.
- An election official confirms that the voter is eligible to cast a ballot.
- The official hands the voter a paper ballot and is told to make their choice in private behind a screen or inside a booth.
- The voter takes the ballot, goes into the private area, and makes their choice by placing an X next to the candidate of their choice.
- The voter returns with their folded ballot and deposits it into a sealed ballot box.
At the end of the night, the official opens the ballot box, tallies the totals for each candidate, and reports the totals to the main office conducting the election.Elections held this way are simple and secure. There is no worry about paper trails or verification, because the ballots themselves are the proof.
As for the ballots themselves, they look something like this:
I guess what I am trying to say is that elections do not need to be complicated by technology. The method I am proposing there depends on the ability of people to count, nothing else.
The method I propose here really works too. Where I live, it is the standard for both my provincial and federal elections.
I really hope that the voting method throughout every county in the U.S. is reformed. Personally, I know it is hard to accept election results when your preferred candidate loses, but at least where I live, I know that the vote itself was fair.
You know, if we'd just let the electors do their jobs, none of this would be an issue. Unless of course Diebold can predict:
1. Which presidential electors will be nominated for each candidate in each party two or more years in advance;
2. Which of these candidates will be favored by each state legislature candidate in each district two or more years in advancec;
3. Which of these electors will be favored by the state legislature as a whole when november 2008 comes around;
4. How each elector, once finally slected, is going to vote.
The Electoral College - its solid, secure, hard to influence, not subject to ad campaigns, and what the founders intended. Why don't we use it?
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
My favourite excerpt is the following:
Of course, there is no proof that these gentleman have continued their illegal ways. They could have become completely reformed, law-abiding citizens by the time they started work on the Diebold voting systems.
Disclaimer: I'm not a Bush fan (I voted for McCain in 2000 and while I wasn't a fan of Kerry either, I voted for him to vote against Bush this year) but I'm getting sick and tired of conspiracy theorists on Slashdot. If you check out my signature, you'll see an insightful speech made by Bill Clinton on why the Democrats lost this election but I will expend on it here. Also note that I used the term "left-wingers" to describe far left liberals, not the Democrats in general.
1. Democrats relied too much on young voters: Problem is that while the 18-24 year old age group makes the most noise, when it comes to voting, they consistently turn out to have the worst voting record. Hollywood celebrities and singers backing Kerry (in hopes of getting young citizens to vote) probably harmed him more by alienating the older voters. Bill Clinton didn't win the election by capturing young voters' votes, he won by capturing the older voters' votes. Now back to Bush vs. Kerry. Majority of voters 65 and older voted for Bush. Majority of voters 24 and younger voted for Kerry. And guess who won?
2. Democrats did not learn form the Austrian elections: The Australian Prime Minister Howard took a lot of heat for supporting Bush and his war in Iraq. The media expected a big loss for Howard on the last election, but Howard ended winning by a good margin. When the Austrian voters were polled, most of them responded that they voted for Howard because economy was a bigger issue than the Iraqi war.
3. Michael Moore and Bin Laden: Telling you that those two guys dislike Bush would be an understatement. However, their messages probably ended up helping Bush more than hurting him. I like Moore's movies because they are entertaining, but unlike the left-wingers, I find his movies highly biased. What Fahrenheit 9/11 did was it ended up causing Bush supporters to work harder to get Bush fans to vote. It's the same thing with the Bin Laden message before the election. Most Americans hate Bin Laden so why does he believe that Americans will listen to him? If he came out and told the Americans to drink milk on Mondays, most Americans will stop drinking milk on Mondays just to spite him.
4. Democrats relied too much on minority voters: Minorities tend to vote Democrat but Democrats didn't realize that minorities can be religious as well and the religious tend to vote Republican. The Republicans pushed the gay marriage and abortion issues to successfully split the minority votes. Why do you think that 44% of Hispanics voted for Bush? Kerry realized this and pushed the fact that he is a Catholic but that fall short of Bush and him pushing the religious agenda for the past four years.
5. Democrats discounting the gun owner voters: There is a good reason why the 2nd Amendment has not be abolished; many Americans own guns or believe that they should have the right to own a gun. (BTW, commander-in-chief for the National Guard is still the President, thus making them more like a federal troop than state militia). Kerry knew about this and pointed out numerous times that he's also a hunter and he'll never take the guns away. However, his voting records betray him and the Bush camp used it to win the votes of the gun owners.
6. Democrats pushed the draft issue: Another issue pushed by the left-wingers was the draft, when only draft bill presented so far was by a democrat and only one other democrat voted for it. Now with Bush reelected, where's the draft? Do the left-wingers honestly believe that most Republicans and Democrats will cast a career ending vote for a draft bill even if one makes it to the floor?
I stayed up on the election night to track the results and the exit polls in general seemed to give Bush an edge so I really wasn't surprised that he ended up winning and Kerry conceding rather early. I'm pretty sure that there were miscounted votes and other voting difficulties but I'm pretty sure those issues exis
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
I suspect that if the exit pollers gave the true results, you'd have had the networks reporting that "None of your fucking business" held a huge lead.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Actually Kerry's records are not, last time I checked, open for examination. He's refused to sign the form allowing full public disclosure of his records.
Bush has signed this form, however some (NOT all) of his records are missing or incomplete.
I suspect BOTH are avoid unpleasant items in thier record.
Oh yeah, those 'lies' you are talking about I assume to be the wmd screwup? If so please note Kerry also supported invasion on those grounds, even to the point of advising people who did not believe him to NOT vote for him. He changed his tune later for political convience.
Kerry and Bush are both Yale graduates and members of the Skull and Bones secret society. If you honestly think thier not in this as co-conspiritors (so to speak) your exactly thier kinda sheep, keep up the good work. At best this(the presidential race) was just a friendly competition. At worst it was sham to deprive the people of a real choice in the election.
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
I think you miss the point entirely. Draft dodgers elected to their position have the right to send a volunteer army arm into war. The difference between Iraq and Vietnam, and this is a stark difference, is that the army fighting in Iraq is made up of men and woman who volunteered to fight in the US armed services. They made a conscious choice to their life to whatever endeavor that the US puts them too. In this case, the congress gave the president the power to go to war, and the president used it. The system worked like it was supposed to. You might not like the outcome. Hell, I don't like the outcome, but the simple fact of the matter is that Iraq is a far cry from being anything like Vietnam so long as it is fought with a volunteer army.
The draft is a disgusting practice. I can't think of anything more revolting then a nation demanding that its citizens surrender their lives against their will. I don't care what the cause is. If the cause is so good and so great, they will do it willingly. If Bush or Kerry dodged the draft or came back to speak against it, good for them. Decrying this disgusting practice or dodging it all together - especially when they are still CHILDREN - doesn't cause me to lose any sleep. If Bush wanted to reinstate the draft, you would certainly have flimsy, but at least credible argument, if you utterly ignoring that you are judging the actions of someone who was just barely a man, some 30 years after the fact.
Dredging up what those two did as children when the government was using violence against its own populace to compel them to go to war is stupid and childish political banter. There are a lot of reasons to dislike Bush and Kerry, but none of those reasons have anything to do with what either one of those children did in Vietnam