Slashdot Mirror
Feds To Have Unified Biometric Federal ID System
An anonymous submitter writes "There have been rumors flying among the scientific community about a proposed standard for 'Personal Identity Verification' by the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST). According to the standard, all federal employees and contractors would require a 'PIV "card" that is "personalized" with data needed by the PIV system to later grant access to the subscriber to Federal facilities and information systems.' Besides the likely efficacy questions, concerns in the scientific community concern what impact this will have on our foreign collaborations (or even grad students)."
you cant really force this on people. they would not accept it. if they were to use this on people they would ahve to do it without people knowing. it would take alot more than a new 9/11 to get people to accept dogtags
I suppose it's understandable that the government would want to keep better track of the people working for it, to help prevent spying and other such things. However, I can also see how one could make the argument that it'll be a slippery slope type situation, and that it won't be long until ALL of us have cards with biometric info and the government watching everything we do. It's a hard call.
Personally, I'd rather take the chance that a few spies might infiltrate the government and not risk a 1984 Big Brother scenario.
USA is about to turn into a police-state, big brother-style. For a few years I have thought about going to MIT (I'm form Norway), but as of todays survailence-policies I no longer want to. You are becoming paranoid, your government is fooling and scaring you all into submission.
Requiring clear identification of all federal employees is acceptable at this juncture in time. Banning Islamic foreign students and Chinese students (including those from Taiwan province and Hong Kong) from federally funded projects at American universities is also acceptable.
This is a fantastic idea --- for Canada and Europe. The USA built its strength by taking the best and brightest students from around the world. If you ban them from all federally funded projects, they'll go elsewhere, for our gain and your loss. We're already seeing this as your increased paranoia makes Canada a more attractive place to study.
Keep up the good work! We really appreciate it!
Not for national ID's, in any way, in any form. It'll be just for federal workers-for right now.
When the Social Security Act was put into place, those who were concerned that the Social Security number would become some type of nationalized tracking system were ridiculed and called paranoid. They even wrote it into the Social Security Act that the number couldn't be used for any tracking purpose other than to determine who gets SS benefits.
Nothing to worry about here, it's easy to see just how well THAT worked. I mean, there were even people who said that you wouldn't even be able to get a job or a driver's license without a social security #. What a bunch of paranoid freaks! That certainly never did happen.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
There are some (even though not very many) sites that you can't use without MS Passport (hotmail). It'd suck if someday you couldn't enter a supermarket without a BioID.
Welcome to 1984... i mean 2004.
Electrons are free; it is moving them that becomes expensive.
In USA...
Soviet Russia turns into you.
This is an "antiterrorist meaning anticonstitution" threat with little in common with our existing photo ID's, and here's why:
American photo ID's are not currently computer readable. There's no national standard other than passports, which don't lend themselves to this purpose. PIV would allow the government to set up a card reader in front of any building, lab, or computer system, and block anybody without a valid card.
Now the government can apply all the wonders of modern technology to track every movement and activity of anybody in their system with an ID card. That's fine in top secret military labs, but "all federal employees and contractors" includes a lot of civilians and low-level people just trying to get their jobs done in the face of stupid policies. Many slashdotters who work on ordinary, civilian things for companies with government contracts would be required to sign up. Now, just to do an ordinary civilian job, you'll be tracked so heavily 5 guys in CIA headquarters are thinking about your breathing. Just think about your breathing-you have to constantly inhale and exhale to avoid suffocating. Now the government will know all about it!
That means Alice the undergrad researcher can't even access the computer system the lab runs on without dragging the boss over to log her in. Which will be impossible on the weekends or at night.
If you're a foreign researcher or student, photo ID includes the passport from your country of origin.
PIV requires going to wherever they give these out, supplying an array of biometric information, submitting to yet another background check, etc. You can't start working until all these additional bureaucratic hoops have been jumped through, and if your card is ever lost or damaged, you're going to be in for one hell of an interrogation to prove you're not up to something. And, of course, if these PIV guys decline your application, you're screwed. Government policies are already driving away foreign students and scientists. Why are we bringing in low cost foreign labor to undercut Americans while driving away the highly educated foreigners who actually have something to contribute?
And God forbid you actually try to collaborate with anyone who isn't in the US. No PIV? No access to the computer system! Passing restricted materials to your fellow researchers overseas? Working around PIV makes you a criminal. You terrorist!
Once all government systems have been locked down with PIV, and hundreds of thousands of ordinary civilians working for government contractors have been PIV'ed and depend on PIV for their jobs, the government will be well on its way towards rolling out a national computerized ID card system.
Ask yourselves: In SOVIET RUSSIA, would the party force PIV on YOU?!?
The answer is yes. Is America no different?
We're just going to have to accept the fact that the Large Set Of Disparate, Often Unrelated Bush Administration Sponsored Policies Which Are For Whatever Reason Addressed With The Label "War On Terrorism" is going to end the U.S.'s former status as intellectual capital of the world. The brain drain that the world outside the U.S. has suffered as a result of their best and brightest going to the U.S. for grad school and trying to stay there is going to stop as those best and brightest are made increasingly unwelcome, and we're going to start seeing Poland and India rivaling silicon valley within 20 years. This trend (the trend within government, the reverse brain drain hasn't noticeably started yet) has been getting steadily worse since September 11, 2001, it's going to continue getting steadily worse with or without the biometrics thing, and it's kind of too late to do anything about this; The Bush administration will some day end, but the Republicans and Democrats will stay, and they've both been equally behind these policies 100%.
What I'd worry about at the moment is the Americans, because, well, since they'll be actually still be in the country in 10 years they have to live with the consequences of policies like this, as well as policies still yet to come. Weekly polygraph tests if you want to work in Fedland, anyone?
i'm sure we all thank you for it.
"privacy verses security" ... it's not quite that simple...
... how does that make one more secure? Say the person is a murderer - does that mean they will murder someone on the plane ... perhaps the quiet lone guy back in 14C is who one should worry about, but because they don't have a criminal record, one is left with a false sense of security - sound familiar ... yep, some of the 911 hijackers had "clean" criminal records.
... there are always tradeoffs ... giving up all privacy for *perceived* security isn't the answer.
Say for a moment, anyone can quickly determine the identity of anyone else in their sight
More to the point, if anyone can exactly determine who anyone else is, including their occupation, etc, then that would present a big problem to folks in the witness protection program (already increasingly having problems being "outed"), undercover security, etc.
Some privacy/obscurity is a good thing (you must tend to agree being that you posted as an AC)
Ron Bennett
Actually you don't ... know much about history.
...) were taken from their homelands and kept in internment camps for years. Reparations have been paid; lessons have been learned (don't believe me? well, you don't see Muslims being interned now; in fact Middle Eastern folks aren't even allowed to be profiled in airport baggage check lines).
Why is there this almost pervasive belief that changes made (during extreme times) cannot be unmade? That is that a worsening condition must asymptotically get worse?
History does not bear this out.
During the American Revolution, citizens had to quarter troops in their homes. This doesn't strike you as quite a bit more invasive than a trumped-up ID card?
During the Civil War, Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus. He sicced the militia on dissenters. He instituted a blockade. He expended funds for the purchase of weapons. And he did all these things without congressional approval. The precious Union still stands!
During WWII, some US citizens (most notably Japanese, also Italians,
And for those cynical few who will scoff at the notion that we here in the US are experiencing extreme times, I ask you to name me another time the US mainland was attacked to such effect by a foreign entity?
We are in extreme times; this is a fact. What precisely those times warrant is up for discussion.
I can understand foreigners lacking an appreciation about the meaning freedom has to us US citizens and how deeply ingrained it is in our beings. But for Americans do get all squeamish that our entire national fabric will be oblitherated if we take any privacy invading measures during these extreme times does not speak well for those individuals' characters (perhaps they thrive on chaos? or are just Chicken Littles).
Now, just to do an ordinary civilian job, you'll be tracked so heavily 5 guys in CIA headquarters are thinking about your breathing.
Oh please.
In order for your fantasy to be realized, we need to have this many CIA employees (who are not, BTW, legally allowed to spy on US citizens):
((# of gov't employees) + (# of civilian employees working on gov't contract)) * 5
Does this seem likely to you? GMAB. Before this could be realized there'd have to be a bill allocating funds to pay all those spooks and that would never pass Congress because... Congressional reps are elected by their constituents who would have to approve this (or else the reps would lose their jobs... and show me a gov't teat sucker eager to lose his job and I'll show you a solution for x^3 + y^3 = z^3 where x != y != z != 0).
You people are fanatics. And your ranting is actually counter productive because it's so hyperbolic and seems to reject *any* form of IDing apparently without offering solutions to our quite impressive problems.
And while I was initially very against a national ID system, given the tremendous loopholes our current ID system appears to have, I am becoming more open to the possibility (but only if it were coupled with more vigorous attempts to boot those who are here illegally from this country (many of the 19 hijackers were NOT here legally) as well as more concentrated attempts to control our borders).
You're overreacting. This is not really that big of an inconvenience considering what they are protecting. It's not like they are tracking you at the grocery store (Walmart does that, not the gov't :).
If you work at a government installation, they are entitled to implement some security measures.
I work at a research foundation (affiliated with a state university) where they make satellites for NASA and have a few military contracts. In order to even qualify for the contracts the foundation has to meet certain security guidelines. After we pass the background check, we're hired, and given Photo ID cards with RFID's embedded in them which gives us access to the building.
The technology is used very responsibly. And I'm willing to let the government secure their assets with technology that is already commercially available and used by private companies.
Don't count your messages before they ACK.
Now, let me repeat that . Let me get this straight. You really want to ID university students in a university environment. Hmm. Some chance that'll work. Point 1): they will break it in 5 minutes. This is the nature of universities - we ask the students to be imaginative and creative and they do this on steroids...
Point 2): Universities are inherently slightly subversive and anarchistic. We value them precisely for this (it's how good new ideas get spawned). You want to check badges? Get a life.
No. If you really want to waste your money in a rational way you should listen to how a lot of students play red vs. blue in their spare time.
We did it even in Bristol UK c.a. 1980 (and I predicted something like the japanese nerve gas thing on the basis of the limited info we had 15 years early). (To be honest I was scared that the IRA would do it, and thankfully they didn't).
So, all of you spooks out there wake up and listen. Universities are your best friends, not your worst enemies... So, teacher (always wanted to say this) leave those kids alone...
A few years ago I was working on a NASA project - nothing secret. We had a Canadian summer student come and work for us on a small job (writing some code to control some optics). As a foreign national he had to get clearance, but he was allowed to start working on writing some code for the project while we waited. Six weeks later his application was rejected and he was no longer allowed to touch any of our computers, or look at any code, including the code he'd written himself. Now he works for a European project doing the same sort of stuff, and I know they are very happy to have him. Stupid, short-sighted xenophobic policies like that do nothing but hurt this country.
I think the problem with this kind of stuff is that it's the people who are valuable, not the ideas. Policies that try to lock down ideas just drive away good people.
Why do we Americans always seem to assume that we're somehow that much smarter than everyone else, and if we keep our research secret then the Chinese, or Indians, or God forbid, the Canadians won't figure it out on their own? Somehow we have a situation where the security folks (who it seems are all all-American white boys from Texas) write policies to prevent the scientists (who are to a surprising extent foreign immigrants) from actually getting anything done. Of course, in the end, it's the scientists who come up with the technology to keep the secirity guys (and their families) safe. That's just too complicated for these dumb white boys to grasp, I guess.
When it comes to basic research, it's amazing how even seemingly trivial impediments to access and communication can utterly inhibit progress. Sure, it's only a biometric card, but the additional hassle will mean that you are that much less likely to hire say, that Polish kid who just happens to actually have a good education in math. Given that U.S. high schools just aren't producing kids that know math, that's a real problem. And yes, I know I do most of my useful work late at night and on weekends, so inhibiting access on non-standard hours is a real pain.
My most fundamental objection to all this though, is simply that I don't WANT to live in a society where Big Brother constantly monitors my every move, knows what my retina looks like, keeps track of who I meet and what I read, what I say, and how I spend my money. I understand that access control to military research might be needed, and that's why I don't do military work. But when they want civilian researchers (like NASA) to follow suit, then I don't have any choice. And I hate that.
Human genome = 3 billion base pairs = 6 GBit. Windows + Office = 20 Gbit. Which is more impressive?
The problem is the killers wouldn't be able to actually do anything if it wasn't for the huge supplies of gullible meat created by who go out and fight their battles for them, and the tacit support of the general populations of much of the middle east. These people generally think something is actually being fought for. The locals from Al-Zarqawi's hometown who talk of Al-Zarqawi as "local boy made good" don't want the worldwide medieval state Al-Zarqawi wants. But they've been fooled into thinking that in some way Al-Zarqawi fights for them.
As long as a significant portion of the middle east has been fooled into thinking that the killers are fighting, at least in some small way, for them, it will not be possible for the killers to be defeated.
The problem comes in in that when the murderous, fascist islamic jihadists come around trying to get meat, or trying to get locals to look the other way while terrorist cells are hiding out in some area, they don't say "we are trying to set up a brutal feudal theocracy based on fear which we rule with an iron fist, enforcing our mysogenic, xenophobic, and highly arbitrary will on all, will you help us?". They come and say "the American imperialists are responsible for all your problems, and they are coming to enslave and oppress our subcontinent". And the problem is that while this is largely bullshit-- the people's problems have more to do with the corrupt kleptocrats who hold political power throughout the middle east-- when it can be demonstrated that America did cause a lot of the problems that currently plague the middle east, and America's army is frequently doing things like invading countries without provocation, then it gets really easy for a hungry, disenfranchised person to believe soothing little lies like the ones the killers peddle.
So I don't think the new anticipated cards will eliminate the threat. I'm just more concerned about the ways it will be abused!
"Evil thrives when good men do nothing"
I really liked your post, but I wanted to add just one thing. In today's scientific world, it's not possible for one nation to 'go it alone' on large projects. Look at the ISS or ITER. They survive because they are international projects. National projects, like the Superconducting Supercollider, have a habit of getting cancelled.
Long live Schrodinger's cat...
Actually, it's probably the NSA who'd be doing most of the spying on us. It's their primary job. Plus, they have a larger budget than the FBI and CIA combined, IIRC.
I don't see anything effective being done in the next decade - the current administration will just react and try to use overwhelming force, and anything that succeeds that is going to follow similar policies.
The most disturbing thing I see is the policy that terrorists deserve no justice. At the least that validates their cause - a very bad thing to do, and at worst you get a wide variety of things redefined as terrorism. The French probably lost Algeria as a result of such a policy. Their policy of picking up suspected terrorists, interrogating them, and then executing them at the end of interogation is thought to have got rid of nearly every terrorist in Algeria at one point - but plenty of people that would not have otherwise fought back revolted. Britan probably lost India due to misapplication of the anti-terror laws in the 1920s to apply to virtually anyone that pissed off the government. To sum up - heavy handed approaches kill a lot of people, piss everyone off, and are entirely counterproductive. In the USA, MacCarthy was only stopped in his heavy handed shotgun approach after he starting going after General Marshall, who had been busy running the war for the USA while MacCarthy was busy being an insignificant idiot instead of the significant idiot he later became.
Why not fix the national ID system you already have if it doesn't work? What is the social security number for if it isn't an ID number. High tech snake oil just gives you lie detectors in courts but doesn't help justice or law enforcement. You are not looking for a technological solution here but an organisational one - the administration just has to have it pointed out to it that after four years people expect it to be able to do it's job, instead of keeping up appearances and creating distractions.
When I see so much vehemence arguing an issue, I'm sure that a lot of thought has gone into considering the alternatives.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
The US had roughly 200,000 people looking for OBL, Al Qaeda and links between them & Iraq. What have they found?
For all those people locked up forever in Guantanamo - what evidence has been presented for their guilt?