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Astronauts Should Fix Hubble

Re-Pawn writes "NASA urged to send shuttle to Hubble - Astronauts, not robots, should fix the Hubble Space Telescope, says a new report by the US National Research Council (NRC). That conclusion is directly at odds with NASA, which is opposed to a human mission on safety grounds, following the Columbia disaster."

10 of 67 comments (clear)

  1. O'Keefe (!NASA) is opposed, safety not the issue by Attitude+Adjuster · · Score: 4, Informative
    It is NASA's administrator that is opposed to a shuttle mission to Hubble, but that is not a consensus opinion, nor is it based on any scientific or engineering recommendation. We could discuss why that is - the answer is his career in politics. Word is O'Keefe may be rewarded for his loyalty and ability to make tough unpopular decisions by the WH and get a higer profile job in the administration...

    Furthermore, as the National Academy of Sciences panel, and other panels before it, have said, the difference in safety (or chance of disaster, which ever way you want to look at it) of a single shuttle mission to Hubble is essentially the same as that of a single mission to the space station. The astronauts, when asked, all were in favor of going to fix Hubble. And they're much more likely to get the job done than the robotic mission, which is rather unlikely to work (read the NAS press release)

    Of course, the plan is for 25-30 missions to the ISS, so the chances of horrendous disaster doing that is far higher cumulatively.

  2. Cheaper to replace it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The NASA FAQ says:
    How much does Hubble cost?

    Initially Hubble cost $1.5 billion to build and put into orbit.
    The linked article has a higher pricetag to save it:
    And though they differ in many respects, both a human and a robotic mission share similar price tags. The Aerospace Corporation and the US Government Accountability Office estimate that each type of mission would cost about $2 billion.
    Seems like we could just send up a new one for significantly less.
    1. Re:Cheaper to replace it? by insanecarbonbasedlif · · Score: 2, Interesting

      More likely it's cheaper, as they've already invested the time in developing Hubble and learning what worked and didn't work, they can simply replicate that. Prototypes and one-offs are always more expensive do to the research and design work that goes into them. Theoretically, there are plans sitting somewhere that they could simply follow, and save a pretty penny.

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      Just because I doubt myself does not mean I find your position compelling.
    2. Re:Cheaper to replace it? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, if you are NASA, the first one will cost the most: including the R&D. The second one, while not as much cheaper as a mass produced item, won't require repeating the R&D. Even if it did, it would cost less to do it the second time around. Not 50% more.

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  3. What is the shuttle for, anyway? by VernonNemitz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm pretty sure the original description of the Shuttle was to be a kind of "space truck", for both transport and servicing missions. To say it is too unsafe to use for its intended purpose just underscores the incompetence of whatever committee it was that bollixed the design. Get rid of them, and post a big sign in EVERY meeting room that (A) describes the debacle, and (B) recommend that it never, ever happen again. (Now, if only somebody in those meeting rooms actually paid attention to the sign....)

  4. Re:Manned flight is unsafe by sarlen · · Score: 2, Insightful
    But I say let's send manned missions where they're most valuable: to the moon, to mars. Not to swap batteries on Hubble.

    The Hubble has taught us 100x more about space and it's origins than that one trip to the moon. It just nearly killed a few guys so Kennedy (posthumously) could laugh at the Russians.

  5. Safe haven approach proposed by FleaPlus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How a 'safe haven' could help save Hubble: Study suggests launching module to shelter astronauts in emergency

    Some snippings:

    An "out-of-the-box" plan to put a new space habitat in orbit could be a leading contender for saving the Hubble Space Telescope, private-sector analysts say in a proposal being prepared for NASA. The habitat could be used as an emergency safe haven during the Hubble servicing mission, and then could serve as a base for wider commercial and exploratory space travel.

    The full proposal is being handed over to the space agency this week, sources told MSNBC.com on condition of anonymity. Independently, the National Academy of Sciences is due on Wednesday to release its own recommendations for repairing Hubble. ...
    In its study, the Aerospace Corp. developed a proposal aimed at keeping astronauts involved in the mission while addressing the space agency's post-Columbia concerns about safety, by adding the provision for the safe-haven module. ...
    The Aerospace Corp. study doesn't confine itself to criticizing NASA's robotic plan, however. It suggest that the shuttle repair option could be restarted with one modification: To accommodate the safety concerns caused by lack of a "safe haven" at the telescope, a special supply module should be launched into space near the telescope "just in case." ...
    As a space haven, the Aerospace Corp. proposes to use a carbon copy of the space station's first Russian-built module, known as the FGB. The FGB-1 was launched into orbit in November 1998 and is now known as the Zarya cargo module. A backup flightworthy spare, FGB-2, is still in storage. For years, the Russians have tried to market it as a commercial module for the space station, and their current plan is to use it as a future space research lab.

    But the Aerospace Corp. study suggests that the FGB-2 could be shipped from Russia for blastoff from a more southerly launch site -- perhaps Cape Canaveral in Florida or the European space base in Kourou, French Guyana.

    Once in space, small thrusters could keep the module in a trailing orbit, a few hundred miles behind Hubble. At that range, the shuttle could fly between the Hubble and the space module in about a day, with minimal fuel cost.

    In this scenario, the shuttle would head for the Hubble as originally planned, inspecting its heat-shielding tiles and panels on the way. If fatal damage is discovered, it would dock with the safe haven instead, and the crew would use the supplies on board to wait out the time it would take to launch a rescue shuttle.

    If the shuttle mission proceeds smoothly, the safe haven would be left in orbit.

    The open-ended scenario has sparked speculation about further opportunities for orbital space travel. Even if the FGB-2 turns out to be unavailable, some observers say it might be profitable to build the space haven from scratch, then use it for other purposes if NASA doesn't need it.

    In fact, one rumor claimed that Robert Bigelow, the Las Vegas hotel magnate who is developing plans for orbital tourism, would build the haven for free, with the caveat that it would revert to his ownership if not needed. Michael Gold, corporate counsel for Bigelow Aerospace in Washington, told MSNBC.com this was untrue. ...
    European and Russian space concerns are among other parties who might make use of an extra orbital module. France and Russia already have made a deal to build a Soyuz launch pad at Kourou, where the European launch consortium Arianespace puts satellites into orbit. Although the deal does not currently extend to human spaceflight, this remains a possibility, Philippe Berterottière, a senior vice president at Arianespace, recently told a White House space commission.

    Commercial space companies could conceivably turn such a module into a destination for high-paying, high-flying orbital tourists.

    Looking farth

  6. Time for Hubble, Shuttle, ISS To Go by reallocate · · Score: 2, Interesting

    O'Keefe is following the recommendations of the CAIB. Would you have him ignore those recommendations only to lose another shuttle and crew trying to sustain an instrument that should be replaced, not repaired?

    Hubble has been an extraordinary tool, but it was never intended to last forever.

    The Shuttle has never had a serious purpose since NASA's preferred design was killed in the 1970's. It exists to sustain ISS, and ISS exists to sustain the Shuttle. Neither project serves the fundamental purpose of space travel, which is to take people from this planet to other places. Shuttle and ISS don't do that. They go in circles a few miles above the atmosphere. It is as if Prince Henry confined his ships to sailing in Portuguese waters within sight of land.

    We need to admit that both ISS and Shuttle are bad ideas poorly implemented and move on. When the need for space stations and space trucks arises, organically, from efforts to explore space, then we will have a reason to build them.

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    1. Re:Time for Hubble, Shuttle, ISS To Go by Attitude+Adjuster · · Score: 2, Interesting
      O'Keefe is following the recommendations of the CAIB. Would you have him ignore those recommendations only to lose another shuttle and crew trying to sustain an instrument that should be replaced, not repaired?

      Not at all - I wish O'Keefe would actually base his decisions on reviews by qualified personel, such as the CAIB. The Columbia Accident Investigation Board did not recommend against using the shuttle to service Hubble ( large PDF report here). It made return to flight recommendations on what needed/needs to be done to the shuttle before it can be used again. It specifically discusses missions that are not to the ISS, and does not nix them, as you suggest. O'Keefe is quote in some (badly written) articles as basing his cancellation on the CIAB report, but that is not factually true.

      Furthermore, O'Keefe is quite happy to have lots of shuttle missions to the ISS, even though the total chances of more astronaut deaths are higher than for a single Hubble servicing mission, and the practical rewards of continuing with the ISS much less than servicing Hubble. My point was to point out that the common assumption (expressed even with the ./ article description) that O'Keefe's decision is really based on astronaut safety is clearly bogus.

      In general I agree with you, but just to clarify things a bit...

      Science is probably the one thing NASA has done well, largely by letting scientists choose the priorities and directions to take rationally. Hubble is only one part of that science, but its still important, and can still provide valuable results. No one has ever expected Hubble to last for ever. But without servicing it there will be a significant gap before JWST get launched (bearing in mind JWST can not really replace all of the things Hubble can do, although it does other stuff better). If a pre-JWST replacement for Hubble can provide better science bang-for-buck than servicing Hubble then you'll find most scientists will be for it. I like the idea of replacing rather than servicing, but comparing the procs and cons of the various options has yet to be made.

      The robotic servicing is the least likely option to succeed (according to multiple studies by experts), and bears the risk of sucking up all-too-scarse science money. Yet its likely O'Keefe will press on with a robotic mission regardless.

      And I agree that the ISS (in its present incarnation) has been a great failure - but much of that blame can be laid on congress (who scrapped Bush I's stupid Mars plan but redirected some of the funds into an unwanted, and unrequested, expansion of the ISS plans). The shuttle hasn't been as good as hoped either, but the one thing it did well was servicing Hubble.

      I too want a sustainable, cost-effective space program, and the Shuttle and the ISS are neither. But the current presidential Moon-Mars manned space plan is even less workable, and it directly harms the historically effective and efficient space sciences programs. The results and further developments of X-prize commercial programs aren't going achieve the launch capabilities to help science for decades.

      Continuing on the political rant... We all want decisions to be made that are realistic, and cost-effective. You need to rely on experts to make those decisions, i.e. not pork-barrel-stuffing politicians. The problem is the recent habit in all the sciences, not just NASA, of ignoring well-defined well-reasoned recommendations, and instead basing decisions purely on political grounds (politics has always played a part to be sure, but this adminstration is taking this to unprecendented levels).

  7. Re:O'Keefe (!NASA) is opposed, safety not the issu by amightywind · · Score: 2, Interesting

    O'Keefe is indeed reluctant to veer from the Columbia Accident Review Board recommendations. The fact is the orbiter is just as vulnerable to debris strikes as it was 2 years ago. It is hoped that debris shed from the tank is reduced but it cannot be eliminated. Vulnerability to debris strikes is yet another flaw in the design of the shuttle that cannot be undone. Since the shuttle has no on orbit thermal protection repair capability or safe abort option, using the ISS is the only (and tenuous at that) option for a shuttle disabled on ascent. I think Mr. O'Keefe is doing the prudent thing. If I were NASA administrator and an exact repeat of the Columbia disaster was still a possibility, I would be cautious too. Do you think any NASA administrator would relish 2 shuttle disasters on his watch? If there is another shuttle disaster, that is the end of US manned spaceflight until the CEV era sets in. Milking the shuttle for 30 flights to finish ISS is ambitious enough. Risky billion dollar manned missions to an observatory already scheduled to be replaced is foolhardy.

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