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Debugging Indian Computer Programmers
Life as an immigrant programmer is full of culture shocks both minor and major (would you know the first time around how to dress when flying from Bombay to Pittsburgh via Los Angeles, in winter?), and much of the book is devoted to outlining some of the shocks that Indian programmers face, even in immigrant-happy America. Buying a car to rely on for daily transport -- on American highways, no less -- is just one of the things many programmers like Sivakumar have to face shortly after arriving; he explains that one of the reasons certain makes of car (chiefly Japanese) are popular among newly arrived H1-B workers is that their expected resale value is high. When your employment is at the mercy of a short-term visa, and the cooperation of a sponsoring company, similar logic informs all kinds of decisions.
The "Did I steal your job?" in the title is the real question raised by this book: Sivakumar rallies evidence that the answer is a resounding No. Despite the vitriol raised by H1-B visa holders (and the H1-B program itself), he argues that the immigrant workers drawing ire from many Americans (who see the immigrants as encroaching unfairly on "their" jobs) not only contribute real money -- billions of dollars -- to the U.S. economy, but are one of the reasons that the U.S. high-tech industry is as successful as it is and has been.
He asks pointedly "[W]hy do some modern Americans (of course, a small percentage) want only those immigrant programmers and IT workers who came during recent times to go back home, yet tend to forget that their parents or grandparents were immigrants too?"Sivakumar's argument has three pillars. First, that high-tech immigrants (including H1-B holders) are one of the key ingredients in the continuing success of many American companies. These aren't foreign workers who simply happen to land jobs in the U.S.; each H1-B visa holder has at least 16 years (often more) of formal education, and an American company sponsoring his or her application. (That education usually comes "free" to U.S. taxpayers, he notes, not at the expense of public school budgets or student loan subsidies.) Sivakumar contrasts both the generous immigrant policies and world-leading software industry of the U.S. with the policies and software industries of Europe, which tend to be more restrictive and less successful, respectively.
The second part of his argument is that H1-B immigrants, though motivated by a desire to improve their own lives, end up contributing disproportionately to the U.S. economy -- something Americans should be happy about, not resentful. Indian programmers in particular end up spending much of their salary on necessary (and less necessary) material goods both for their personal use and as socially obligated gifts to family members, increasing the retail take of U.S. companies from AT&T to the local car dealer.
More significantly, H1-B workers, as legal immigrants to the U.S., have the dubious privilege of paying the same taxes as other Americans (and more than most), with a far smaller chance of reaping their benefits. Most are single, and send no children to the U.S. schools they help underwrite, and most will never collect on the Social Security system or medical-care systems their payroll taxes help prop up.
Third, Sivakumar points out that Indian immigrants are often among the inventive and entrepreneurial class which provides jobs in the first place, citing -- besides a litany of Indian company founders and inventors -- a Berkeley study showing that in the boom years of the 1990s, "ethnic Chinese and Indian immigrants started nearly 25% of the high-tech start-ups in [Silicon] Valley." That's nearly 3000 companies, employing on the order of 100,000 people. The market capitalization of Indian-founded or -run U.S.-based companies is nearly half a trillion dollars. Job creation is an economic complex that requires funding and expertise, and Indian and other immigrants contribute to -- not subtract from -- the creation of jobs for other Americans.
Sivakumar is polite, almost apologetic at times -- and more optimistic than some of the things he's experienced as a hired-gun programmer might lead you to expect. Though he maintains that the book is not an autobiography, many of the experiences in it are things he himself encountered; some of them are funny, others either frightening or simply sad. In particular, he makes note of one place that programmers and other tech workers are likely to run into "racially abusive" hostility -- namely, Internet message boards. As he puts it,
"You meet these people every day of your life, and they probably would smile at you at your workplace or even would greet you. They show their real face in those discussion forums. These online discussion forums are great tools for those who want to hide themselves from the public but would like to spew their venom."
Given the hostility faced online and (less often) in real life, sometimes Sivakumar's politeness goes what struck me as too far; I was surprised to read his conciliatory advice to Indians treated suspiciously on the basis of their skin color or accent in the panic-prone modern America to "please accept it," rather than to bristle. That might be pragmatic and sensible advice, but America will be a better place when it's unnecessary.
This book makes no pretense of being an authoritative work on cultural differences, but Sivakumar does delve into a few of the gaps between American and Indian aesthetics, habits, and mores. Sexually explicit entertainment is far more accessible in the U.S. than in much of the world, and in India in particular; he labels the usually short-lived exploration by some new immigrants of the seedier side of American entertainment "The X-Rated Movie Syndrome." On a different note, vegetarian food isn't easy to find in company cafeterias, which means for many Indian programmers one of many small barriers to acceptance by their coworkers, because they can't simply order off the menu at a company cafeteria.Even trivial aspects of daily life are sometimes imbued with cultural meaning: after being advised by a friend to "walk smart" (that is, confidently, not quietly or humbly) along company corridors, he writes "It sounded true to me, and I was prepared for my next American adventure. 'Alright, I am going to walk straight and smart as of tomorrow!' I tried recently only to have my colleagues comment that I walk like President Bush."
Despite a casual style and sometimes distracting use of jargon ("Dude" is funnier in the title than when it appears several times in the text), the content of Debugging is serious. Sivakumar and other immigrant programmers are not abstractions or hypotheticals: they're designing processors, programming systems of all scales, and bringing the results of high-end education worldwide to places like Palo Alto, New York and Austin. They're also facing an anti-immigrant backlash that ranges from merely spiteful (the usual) to actually violent (thankfully uncommon). Sivakumar's experience in the U.S. isn't wholly negative -- he's quick to point out otherwise -- but includes cavalier treatment from co-workers and landlords, and even harassment from a flag-waving driver gesturing obscenely (and blocking his car) on the streets of New Jersey. That's the sort of experience most light-skinned, native-born Americans are lucky not to face on a daily basis.
Losing friends and neighbors to the terror attacks of 2001 isn't something that happened only to American citizens, and Sivakumar was touched by both; five residents of his New Jersey apartment complex were killed by those attacks, along with the wife of a friend. In this and other aspects of life in America, he justifiably considers himself a part of the U.S. high-tech economy, not a mere visitor, and uses the second person when talking about the American software industry specifically. If you're an American by birth, realize that Sivakumar is an American by choice (even if he has ties and loyalties to both India and Sri Lanka besides), whatever his visa status says.
This is also a funny book, in parts -- in particular, Sivakumar's experiences ordering lunch in an American company cafeteria made me laugh. (Pronouncing "milk" with an emphasis on the "l" rather than the "i" is a matter of spoken convention, after all, not a rule of nature -- but a short "i" will get you a carton of milk faster in an American company cafeteria). The author's graceful levity is welcome, and it helps to defuse the natural anger I felt at some of the odious treatment he describes.
The writing is understandable throughout, but Sivakumar is clearly a programmer writing, rather than a writer who happens to also be a programmer; much of the text is awkwardly phrased, and dotted with avoidable errors in spelling or diction. (One that stuck out: in more than one place, the name of fellow H1-B immigrant Linus Torvalds is rendered "Linus Travolds.") The chronology of Sivakumar's own story is not always clear, either; he mentions offhandedly at one point early on that "[b]y the way, my wife had come from India and joined me by then"; a clearer timeline would help in unifying the anecdotes which make up much of the book.
Sivakumar is also guilty in places of wielding the same kind of broad brush he sees being used to paint Indian programmers; he provides cultural sketches of several other groups that may be meant merely as casual observations rather than any sort of final word, but end up doing the same disservice as any other stereotype. (Of his first trip through customs, he says "That was the first time I ever talked to an African American. I never understood their accent even in the movies." This kind of glib generalization doesn't advance the cause of the book; often "they" are hard to characterize so blithely, no matter which "they" is at issue.)
However, take these complaints with a grain of salt: it would be easy to concentrate on the less-than-smooth delivery -- it just wouldn't be smart. If you let the presentation distract you too much from the content, you'll miss what the book's about, which is that "there is another side to the H1-B factor." While the book has some distracting flaws, they don't subtract from its logical conclusion: immigrant programmers in the U.S. are simply human beings trying to better themselves in what's supposed to be a free society, and adding immensely to U.S. prosperity -- and they're doing so despite hostility on several fronts. If you want to understand the not-so-simple phenomenon of Indian programmers in America, don't overlook that message.
You can purchase Debugging Indian Computer Programmers: Dude, Did I Steal Your Job? directly from Divine Tree. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, carefully read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
"Because the immigrant came to the US, they had to buy a car!"
How does a person get a car loan for longer than the amount of time they can guarantee even being in the country?
How do you get a 20-year mortgage if your visa is only good for 5?
Everytime the subject of jobs comes up, and people whine and complain about not being able to find a job, they leave out the fact that they can't find a job where they currently live. Then they get all defensive about wanting to keep living where they currently are, and go on moaning about the supposed "bad job market" in the US.
While it may be true that there aren't jobs in their area, there ARE jobs other places in the US, if they're really serious about jobs. And I'm not saying to move out to the middle of no-where to some one-horse town with no other tech in sight.... I'm saying look around there are a lot more jobs out there than people think.
The problem with that argument is the assumption that US companies are hiring immigrants because they are more skilled or brighter. Realistically, the only reason most of them are hired is because they are cheap. So what we're really doing it devaluing IT work in the US.
"after 9/11, reading an interview with a kid (19 years old, something like that) who was arrested as part of a mob that vandalized a mosque."
Better still, when Timothy McVeigh killed hundreds in the bombing of the federal building in OK, where were the mobs running around threatening white males of Christian background?
"Real" American? Unless your family was hunting buffalo here thousands of years ago, you're just a newbie tourist.
---
Cthulhu holiday songs, for the gift that keeps on loathing.
Just read Yahoo newsgroups once in a while. Its mostly teenage punks who think crass racial jokes are funny to mix with current events.
And neo-nazis became popular when working class people started losing their job. Blame another race.
Nice thing about Slashdot is there is sane moderation. In yahoo, the majority of posters are crass and moderate up drivel, especially politically motivated posters. Sane moderation leads positive conversations. Insane moderation means you need to trod through each of the 10,000 messages individually to see if anyone has something good to say. Of course, when most people are saying,"Bush is retarded" or just posting obscenities, it gets old.
Slashdot isn't the best forum system that could be created, but its what we got now, and I'm thankful for it.
God spoke to me.
Define what you mean by a 'typical' salary?
/I/ make $10/hour, and I'm white and was born in Los Angeles. Do you really think that what you're doing is worth much more than that?
/isn't/ a widely-known skill, that most high school kids have already taken courses on. Go clean bathrooms for a few years.
I'm a web developer specialising in e-commerce (php/mysql/asp/etc, not wysiwyg) in a small (15 person) firm, and
If you want to make more money, do something that
Basic economics, people. Too much supply, very little demand. Go for what's cheapest.
America - Home of the scapegoat, land of the Corporation
Most people I know really don't resent immigration - they and I only resent immigration when unemployment is an issue. Some economists are forecasting economic problems for the US in about 10 years when the baby boom generation starts retiring en masse, but I have never met anybody who thinks we should restrict immigration when the immigrants will be necessary to the economy. I have friends working at companies that hire a lot of H-1B workers, and they tell me the Indians are straight out of school. But these companies will not consider any Americans without a great deal of experience, setting a double standard for Americans and Indians. To unemployed programmers - people who were laid off and had to train their H-1B replacements or new graduates who are told the only new graduates who are qualified come from other countries - it really doesn't matter how much money foreign tech workers spend while here. It just matters that the foreigner can spend money and the unemployed programmer has no money to spend. Disagree? Try losing your job, spending about a year being told you are underqualified in the computer industry and overqualified in other fields, and see how you feel when companies that will not consider you tell Congress they need more foreign tech workers.
If you have an H1-B visa you don't have to go home to get a green card. You can apply for permanent residency while in the US. To make sure you are successful just hire a good immigration lawyer and spend a lot of money on legal fees ($7000-to $10000 maybe even more)
For people living in the Bay Area I recommend Berry, Appleman and Leiden from San Francisco (www.usabal.com). Expensive, but the best. Their fees for one person start at $9000. A consultation costs $250.
As a former H1-B worker who returned home 2 years ago, I think the resentment has a lot to do with skin colour and being Indian.
How can I tell? Well, I never once faced any resentment at all, despite all the vitriol pointed at Indian immigrants.
But then again, I don't have dark skin and most people think I'm American until I speak. You see it all the time in Slashdot - it seems like it's OK to be racist towards Indians for "taking our jobs".
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Don't worry too much; the regulars get the same sort of abuse (although not necessarily with the racist trappings). There's also a strong anti-bus stigma among the population at large: riding the train is trendy and cosmopolitan; riding the bus is ghetto. This trickles down to the operator's attitude.
What infrastructure are they using that they're not paying for? If they drive on the roads, they pay gas tax. If they work they pay federal tax which also pays for roads. If they go to a hospital, they have to pay in cash, or their insurance (which they or their employer has to pay) pays for it. They won't use welfare, etc., but they will pay for it.
Yet they bring an education into the country. They have to pay high taxes. They contribute much more than they take. Compare this to the perennial welfare family.
I'm a bit sore about this - I'm a Canadian who lives in Canada and works in the U.S. I get challenged with this same logic all the time in the U.S., and it's crap. I use next to NO infrastructure here (don't live in the U.S.) but I pay full state and federal taxes and get absolutely no deductions, so I pay way more than the usual amount.
The real scam I pull is that I don't pay much Canadian tax at all, but I DO use the infrastructure there, including the big one: health care (even though I have U.S. health insurance through my employer - pays to have some when I'm on this side of the border). All Canada gets is the money I convert injected into the economy. But alas, both countries signed the tax treaty that way...
From my own experience, what I have seen is not what this article promises. I'm sure some are well educated and can do their jobs just fine. I've seen this, but the majority of what I've seen leaves much to be desired. That said, I've been to India (Mumbai), for my employer, to train and work with one of the companies we use for outsourcing. We also have a bunch of employees here in the office, on visas. For the most part, I would say the people we end up with in the office can do their job reasonably well. However, these are not the people who end up doing the bulk of the work. These are the star pupils of whatever company we are currently dealing with. Those sent to make the company look good. When it comes down to doing the work, it is done by the cheapest person they can get their hands on in India. The description above makes it sound as though the companies are all out there to better the US market, what better intrest could they have? Well, money in the pockets of the owners is really what it comes down to. I've yet to see an exception to that rule, whether companies here or there. While in India, several of the people who I trained had quit before I even left. Originally we were not even told about this. It wasn't until I started noticing faces missing that we got an answer. Within a week of returning to the states, most of the rest of the group had left. The turnover is crazy, it's a market of paying the lowest you can hoping the person won't get a better offer and leave. What this all results is in really crappy coding. There wasn't much point in my trip to India since just about everybody left. Our software is incredibly complicated, so the new people coming on don't really have the expertise needed to do the job right. Lesson learned there at least (on my part and hopefully my employers). While they may have a lot of years of education, from my personal experience, they don't know how to apply it. Now that is going to be true regardless of whether the person is fresh out of school here or there. But instead of investing the time to train up our local workforce, we spend the time to train up a workforce that is only here to temporarily help us. Where is the long term benefit in that? I'm not secretly venemous like the article implies is a situation that abounds. However, I'm not greatly pleased to see half my company is now staffed with foreign workers who may be gone tomorrow. Even if they are doing an excellent job, that knowledge leaves our hands in an instant. The jobs we mostly hire for in the office (from overseas anyway) are designers. They don't do the coding. That gets shipped back to the inexperienced office in Mumbai. My job has been basically reduced to Newbie Coder Hand Holder. And when I'm finally getting some people to the point where they understand what I expect from their coding they might suddenly disappear, to be replaced by another fresh out of school no experienc employee. This must be great for India, I'm training their workforce. I don't hold it against the Indians I've met. They are trying to earn a living like everybody else. It's my employer that wants to take advantage of the cheap labor and is convinced it can be done just as well as we could do in house (that is one thing I don't believe will ever be true). Also I blame the companies in India who are out to make a quick buck and don't care so much about the result. I definitely feel that many of the programmers I've seen are somewhat exploited in their low pay and it shows by the lack of company loyalty (the turnover). It is unfortunate that those Indians employed in the US have to face what they do at times. When it happens, I don't think it is right, but they must also understand the environment they are coming into. They ARE the most visible result of some disturbing changes. This whole shift to outsourcing has caused me nothing but more work. Perhaps if it worked as advertised (less work in house, better results, cost savings) people might not be so resentful of it.
Better still, when Timothy McVeigh killed hundreds in the bombing of the federal building in OK, where were the mobs running around threatening white males of Christian background?
There was anger and increased vigilance against those in American "militias." Lots of specials about "who these militia men are, with the media portraying them all as rednecks from the south or midwest who carry a rifle with them at all times, live in the woods, and have a shed with a military arsenal, and who want to overthrow the goverment. Of course the media also tried to extend these stereotypes to all libertarians, since most of these "militia men" had libertarian beliefs.
Want an example of religious backlash? After the Waco incident there were tons of expose on religious cults and the threat they represent. The media trying to scare Americans that somewhere in the backwoods there are dozen of compounds of armed cultists led by psychotic religious zealots. Meanwhile there are many "cults" who just differ with mainstream christian beliefs.
"Real" American? Unless your family was hunting buffalo here thousands of years ago, you're just a newbie tourist.
I believe native americans immigrated too, just thousands of years earlier across the land bridge. There are no "real" americans
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
You should set a target: the US graduates 200,000 more engineers and scientists in six years than it did this year, or every member of congress is executed. Hanged. Badly. Slowly.
Now don't get me wrong, I had a whale of a time in the US. I was treated very well, well paid (none of this $70K shit), and generally had a productive, exciting time; but most of my productive co-workers were Chinese and Indian guys, smart and genuinely enthused about what we were making and who our product would help. Crappy english, sure, some of them - and some of them, particularly the Indians, better english speakers than native me (or is that I?). All the time I, and all these smart foreigners worked in the US, Slashdot, Congress and other crapass "thinkers" (ahem) slandered us. They said we were dumb, they said we were uneducated, or spoke bad english, they said we'd work for slave labo[u]r rates, they said (frankly) we were inferior. And all the time the US trade gap grew and grew, more and more skilled jobs moved to India and China, more and more the US economy slipped into a whole from which it seems determined never to emerge.
Let's face it. The average H1B worker moved away from his family, from everything he knew to work in the US, to maintain an ecomomy whose own managers seemed determined to outsource it, to be slandered and deprecated by third-rate journalists and racist politicians. Sure, he made more money than he'd make in Bangalore or Shanghai, but the difference is less and less (particularly compared with the cost of living in the Research Triangle or the Silicon Valley) each year. Now that the tech recession has come for everyone he's probably moved back to Shanghai or Bangalore (unwelcome, filthy terrist foreigned slanty-eyed bastard that he is, in the US). Whose economy do you thing he's helping? Into whose business do his smarts flow?
The US economy (and to a marginally lesser extent the EU economy too) holds a gun to its own head. Both have squandered the promise of the new economy. Foreign workers are one less, not one more, bullet in the revolver.
With engineering and science, at it highest levels, moved east - what do the US and Europe actually _make_? Can you really expect to run two of the world's largest economic blocks on missles, movies, and life insurance?
The dollar is going to drop another 10-15% in the next 2 years. Dollars sent home are going to have less worth.
Have you ever considered that maybe those foreign workers are simply *better*? If words like "carrers", "inherient" and "priviledge" appear in a resume, it will be dumped in the trash. If at the end of the day all of the American-written resumes end up in the trash, the employer will conclude that there are no qualified American workers, and will start looking elsewhere.
I've recently moved from Atlanta, GA to New York. Back in Atlanta, it wasn't uncommon to have an office with a few Indian developers, but they were a very small minority.
The small consulting company I work at now is owned by a British ex-pat and the office is about 75% foreign born. Working with a diverse crowd is a great learning experience. Not only are you exposed to interesting cultures, but also some different ways of doing things. Plus, I've recently been to some of the best Indian restaurants I would have never found on my own.
For those rednecks out there that act like idiots to our guests, you are rude and stupid. We are a nation of immigrants. My great grandfathers came from Spain and Croatia in the 19th century. They had a dream of making a better life for my family and succeeded. The diversity of our nation fuels innovation. Compare the motivation of most immigrants to many 3rd, 4th, or more generation Americans, they are excited to have an opportunity... I find it inspirational. Fact of the matter is, America needs to remain competitive.
Don't blame someone else for your own lazy self. The world has changed, go change with it.
I think you mean the area now known as Africa. Unless by "we" you mean "all people who aren't black." I guess then we were all in the Middle East at one point.
Realistically, companies like H1Bs because they are single and they are here to work. They will work longer and harder than similarly aged and experience Americans, because they don't have to be home for dinner at 7:00, get off early Tuesday to go to their daughter's dance recital, need Saturday off for Billy's baseball game, or need a week off at Thanksgiving to go see their sister on the coast.
Plus, the difference in work ethics between Asians and Americans makes Asians much more attractive hires any day of the week.
See my journal entry two back. America was NEVER meant to be a capitalist country- Jefferson and the other federalists considered corporations to be as dangerous as nobility, perhaps more. What we are living in under capitalism, is not what America was meant to be.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
So MOD PARENT DOWN :)
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Immigration is the only chance for the USA to keep its leading position in the world in all domains including IT.
Indeed. I work in the Physics & Astronomy department at a large (c. 20,000 students) university. Most of the grad students are foreign. All of the postdocs are foreign, either on H1-B visas or on J-1 visas. If it wasn't for all of these foreigners, the department would have no active research program whatsoever.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
"Meanwhile there are many "cults" who just differ with mainstream christian beliefs."
I think the only difference between "cult" and "mainstream" is the number of warm bodies in the particular denomination and how much economic and political power they have. Koresh in Waco had followers in the dozens so he was a cult. I'm pretty sure Mormons would be called a cult if you looked at their organization objectively were there not millions of them, if they didn't pretty much own a state and weren't politicly and economicly powerful. Their history and the Book of Mormon is to say the least "interesting". South Park has a pretty good parody of it. Many are still polygamists to this day often with rather young girls, which was a key factor in the persecution of Koresh. I think most Mormons would be polygamists had banning it not been a condition of statehood. If you think about it Joseph Smith set up a pretty nice lifestyle for himself. Mormons have made the jump from cult to mainstream at this point thanks to success.
I'm pretty sure if Jesus were to come back today he would most probably be persecuted as a cultists and if he were to start preaching the same message today he preached 2000 years ago most "mainstream" Christians would probably crucify him one way or another, assuming he didn't start lobbing miracles left and right. Most modern Christians don't seem to really understand or agree with most of the things he actually said and did. The New Testament as nearly as I can tell is just empty text they listen to and maybe even memorize without ever actually taking to heart and without actually practicing the other 6 days of the week.
@de_machina
It is a basic principle of our Constitution that the majority does *not* have the right to take rights away from the minority. Choosing who you bring into your company is a pretty damn basic right, and the majority cannot take it away. Nor is there any need to for them to take it away. If there are people who don't like the hiring practices of certain companies, then by all means, they should start their own business that has hiring practices they agree with. If their idea about American citizens being better workers in the long run than new immigrants really does hold water, then they'll quickly overtake the original companies. If it doesn't hold water, than it was a dumb idea anyway, and deserves not to be implemented.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The legend of the "superior" H1-B worker is largely a myth.
... don't expect any useful input from Mr NEP.
... except Mr. NEP. He nodded his head and wrote down all of the action items that were assigned to him, (and his penmanship is excellent, BTW!) but doesn't seem to understand what any of them actually mean.
... 2 days later you'll find out from HR that he has filed a formal complaint because none of his American team members will show him where the bud or turkeys are located. (email on file, I assure you)
... seemingly never having heard of CPAN. If there is a possibly better language or tool to use than Perl, you'll never hear of it from him - the formal specifications (that you had to waste someone's time writing just for him) say "Perl", and that is holy writ to him never to be challenged or even thought about.
;)
MY EXPERIENCE:
IF you give the typical near-Eastern programmer (NEP) PRECISE requirements (so precise that you have actually already detailed the program logic and much of the actual code) you'll get back working code (sorta working anyway) from them in record time.
IF you sit down in a meeting with the typical (NEP) and have a discussion with your team about what the program is supposed to do, what pitfalls might be encountered, what languages or other tools might be used to best approach the project
He'll sit there smiling quietly and saying nothing. He doesn't ask any questions or participate in any decisions or raise any issues. Everyone leaves the meaning pretty much clear about what part of the project is theirs and what they are supposed to do
Y'see -- he didn't get a formal, precise and comprehensive set of "spec-see-fee-cay-shoons" and therefore has no clue. Despite what might appear to be excellent written and verbal English skills, he doesn't seem to really understand much of the language except when used in precise, formal constructions.
You'll assign him a bug list and ask him to "nip these in the bud" or "kill these turkeys"
IF your team thought Perl was the way to go, he'll keep slogging through writing Perl code, but he has no idea where to find any Perl mods that aren't already installed
Mr NEP will always be polite, he will never be late, he will always be appropriately dressed and you will never have to ask him to remove THAT from his cubicle wall. He never tells bad jokes, dirty jokes, politically incorrect jokes -- well never ANY jokes for that matter, but laughs at everyone else's at the right time. He never comes to work with a hangover. If he had open-heart surgery yesterday, he'll be to work on time today.
Sadly - when a full analysis is performed - he just doesn't accomplish much in the same way that his American and Eurp counterparts do. He's paid about half of what his US/Euro buddy is, and overall is worth about one fourth.
Just MY opinion of course
He getting screwed. I friend of mine make $25/hour pulling fiber-optic cable as part of a network installation crew. Your employer doesn't realize that by paying you that low, you are going to jump ship the first chance you get, and take your knowledge of web development with you.
I have to admit that I haven't seen php/mysql in any of the large businesses I've worked in. What I have seen is Apache/IIS/Oracle/MS SQL Server and java server pages/asp for the dynamic pages. Maybe it's your skills with 'free'/'open source' tools that is devaluing you in your employers eyes. Or perhaps it shows that your employer is cheap in all areas, not just salary. Try and find skills that either are good for consulting work for companies, or ones that high-demand/Enterprise-level so that the jobs you land actually pay something. '
oh, we could argue about what the best tools for the job are, but I am simply talking from exerience with what I have *seen* used in the Enterprise. e.g. we are looking at buying an CRM tool for $200,000 that runs on Apache/Oracle, uses J2EE, and JSP. This gives you an example of what big corps use, and what they will pay top dollar for.
I can't afford a sig!
Maybe I don't understand, but I have a hard time thinking of an oath of allegiance as meaningless procedure. There is plenty to dislike in our society, enough to give a rational foreigner pause, but I think the oath should be taken seriously. Maybe that would ean saying "No, Your Honor, I don't swear it." That's ok too. Anything less is an insulting fraud.
Why do I have this? I don't smoke.
The kid was wrong but honestly, a lot of people said a lot of messed up stuff "not too long after 9/11". This isn't striking, it's surprisingly common regardless of what his last name started with.
To a rather large portion of the United States the Arab world is defined by the relative handful of times anything in it got their attention. That would go something like "Arab oil embargo, Iranian hostage crisis, Lebanon Marine barracks bombing, Gulf War I, World Trade Center bombing, 9/11, and Gulf War II." To so many here in the US the Middle East is a) The Holy Land, b) Terrorist World, and c) Oil World.
A lot of people in the US want the Arab world to just go away. Note I did not say that they want to destroy the Arab world, it's people, nations, or religon. They just want it to go away in that vague, strange, and seemingly unique American sense. Think of it like the way they think of where the garbage truck takes their trash. They leave it on the curb, a big truck comes along and picks it up and takes it to the magical land of "Away".
They only think of the Arab world when it presents a problem and they want the problem out of their face. It's stupid and naive but I believe it's essentially the way a good number of people think and feel.
My point I guess is that citing the way an American idiot teenager thinks about Arabs in 2001-2002 is probably not going to give you a completely accurate picture of how Americans feel about immigrants in general. It's in reference to a particular ethnic group/region.religon that Americans in general were highly agitated over at the time and the incident represents a very small percentage of the population. A lot of incidents happened like this vandalized mosque, true. A lot of mosques were not vandalized and overall Americans behaved themselves.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Hmm. I work at a company that hires quite a few H-1B workers. Some from places as far away as Canada. Many are from India, Pakistan, France, and the UK. A couple are from Australia.
The one thing I can say with certainty is that not one of them "stole" the job they have. They may have been better qualified than the other applicants, but that certainly isn't their fault. Most of them (not all, mind you, but most) are amazingly good at what they do. Even the ones I consider pretty sub-par were still the best who were in that set of interviews.
As far as the 'who was here first/new vs. old immigrants' bit, my family has records proving that we have been landowners in North America since 1690. Technically, that means my family was here before this country even existed. I think that immigrants are the best thing to ever happen to a country. Any country.
Ok, sorry for the long post, but I just want the people out there who are reading this to know that when some of us are complaining about a particular Indian or British programmer, they mean that individual. Cultural/Racial/Ethnic background has nothing to do with some people being promoted to their level of incompetence.
-WS
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
Pull your head out of the sand. People don't starve in the US under normal circumstances. Even in poorest parts of the US you never see rail thin kids dying of starvation. Even the bums on the street are well fed. A hungry American is a well fed person in most nations.
It is no coincidence that the US has one of the world's most liberal immigration policies (even post 9/11) AND just so happens to be the worlds largest super power. The US consumes the world's intellects and it is to the advantage of the US people that it does. Very few people born in the US leave the US to live somewhere else, but massive amounts of people from all over the world come to the US to live. The difference between the numbers of people we give away compared to the number of people we take in is massive.
For an antidotal example, look at what happened to Germany during World War II. Germany became a xenophobic nation that started to bleed off large portions of its non-native population. At the same time the US consumed a great many people from Germany, especially German intellects that for didn't meet the ethnic standards they were looking for. Without this development, the US would never have gotten the atomic bomb as quickly as it did, along with a while host of other technologies. Draining the worlds brain power is GOOD for the US.
As an American and descendent of immigrants (as most Americans are), I like it when the US imports intelligent people willing to work. It means the US just got more productive and more intelligent and somewhere else some nation just lost a good citizen. Once someone is a US citizen, they are an American as far as I am concerned. The chances that they will leave rapidly shrink the longer they stay, and such people tend to bred productive and intelligent children.
US immigration policy is the biggest asset this nation has. I personally am dumbfounded that another American could complain about the US drawing the world's intelligence and productivity to itself. Maybe you long for a nice homogeneous and stagnant nations, but I sure as shit don't. Perhaps if unemployment was high I would have a little more sympathy to tears over population growth, but at a paltry 5% unemployment, you can cry me a river.
It sounds like the author admits there are cultural differences between indians and americans. Obviously, these aren't genetic differences, but cultural ones.
In general, I've never met a more pleasant set of people, but there is this problem I have with the class structure of Indians.
One Indian told me "You know, the untouchables are inferior because otherwise they would no longer be untouchable." Now, I'm sure there are a lot of Americans that feel that way to their favorite racial group too, but I've noticed a lot of class structure in Indians.
A lot of the so called elite class, such as Brahmans, feel they are vastly more capable than they really are. One Brahman I know told me when he was twelve he was giving religious ceremonies to people 5 times his age. If that won't give you an inflated self-confidence, I don't know what will.
In addition, I've seen a lot of Indians "roll over," agreeing to things they never should. Now, I know a lot of Americans that do these things too, so it isn't unusual, but the number that are willing to is so high that it changes the workplace. Bosses that listen to a bunch of people always agreeing with them, when they are wrong, actually weakens the work environment and removes individuality, freedom, and to some extent the ability to compete. True, it has the advantage of getting the wood behind one arrow, but I can't stand anyone cleaning up anyone else's shit.
That having been said, I can't really generate anything but a great respect for almost all of these people. I can sense what a wonderful place it must be to live in India, where you can walk into your neighbor's home not being concerned about intruding, but just to sit down and have a cup of coffee or something. These people are certainly more socially adept and understanding than I am, and I respect them for it.
Ed Barbar, President and General Manager, Furnit USA
The US is generally a friendlier nation to immigrants then most countries because we have such a history of it. Of course, compared to most countries, that doesn't say much. US gets hit with waves of immigration from specific locations. It used to be that having a 'Mc' or "O'" in your name caused you to get shit on during the flood of Irish immigration. Now Irish ancestry is something everyone and their dog seems to claim every St. Patrick's day (myself included) with pride.
I have a feeling that Indian immigration is the same sort of deal. The US is getting hit with a lot of Indian immigration, and so people bristle a little over stupid things. I personally think it is just a cycle that is going to quickly wear itself out. Give it 20 years and I bet no one thinks anything of it.
You can already see the trend in Asians that sent over a wave before the Indian immigration wave. The stereotypes are certainly still there, but fewer and fewer people automatically assume that anyone who looks Asian is going to speak with a broken accent. I am not saying the world is perfectly peachy, but you can see things slowly starting to even themselves out.
While in an ideal world it would be nice if we could all get along, in the real world quick integration is key. First wave immigrants from both East Asian and India have proven to be as compatible as everyone else to protestant work ethic, and the first generation born here have shown that they are as completely integrated as any other American. Hell, my two best friends are the first kids born in the US in their families which are Indian and Taiwanese. If you talked to them on the phone you would never know they were not decedents of some Irish family that has been cranking out kids for the past 100 years.
So, is the machine perfect? Nah. I think it is running pretty smoothly though. You have the usual tensions that associate immigration, but I really think the future is looking bright for these people, especially their kids. I think the US will be better off in the end for it too. I don't think it hurts at all to add a few more shapes and colors to the mix to help deaden racist impulses.
The 500-2000 resumes are examined VERY quickly. I've heard stories about the piles being arbitrarily halved with the other half being discarded.
You've never actually done it, have you?
in 1999 I, as the (then) owner of a small computer shop in small-town, USA, posted a job opening in the local paper, for the job of a "computer repair technician" at minimum wage in the local (small-town) newspaper.
I got over 100 resumes from that newspaper ad.
How would you deal with that properly? Your talking $7/hour, "fix the computer" stuff. Installing sound cards, network cards, video cards. And a stack of resumes 1 inch thick.
Really, what what would you do?
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
$10/hr?
you're getting screwed, buddy. I pay my maid more than that!
wow...
Hell, my 13 yr. old daughter gets that much for babysitting!
Just another day in Paradise
"Real" Americans are those that were born here or lived most of their life here. H1B Visa workers are carpet-baggers who came here because the prospects of employment in their own country was so shitty that they'd have to be a taxi driver or thug to pay the bills. If they want to become American citizens, FINE, I welcome you with open arms. If you want to just work here then go back to your own country after reaping the benefits of my great nation then fuck off.
You are mad at H1B visa holders. These guys came here legally. They are earning wages legally. Would you rather prefer guys like those involved in 9/11 or the illegal immigrants whom our government is considering giving citizenship to? The crime rate amongst the H1B holder is almost zero. Lets accept the fact that they are better for the US society.
I know the world exists because I exist.
My experience with H1B's has been the opposite. They've seldom been real world qualified. They lacked experience, and their edcuation was questionable. One guy had a Phd in Database Design, but his code had the worst defect rate of anyone in the company. He used exceptions as goto's for crying out loud.
That's not to say i've never met a qualified H1B, I have.
My problem with the H1B program is when similarly or better qualified citizens are laid off in favor of H1B replacements. Don't say it doesn't happen. It happens all the time.
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I never proposed a solution, I just said the current process is flawed and examining other sources of labor is not the solution.
And yes, I have done it. I had to create a posting for my own job a few years back and reapply for it. While the fact that I had to do it stunk, I at least had the priviledge of targetting the position at my own skillset and closing the posting after 5 business days. We also presented the low end of the salary range to discourage applicants. Within 5 days we had over 300 resumes, nearly all of which were the same.
Since I was applying I wasn't allowed to filter out the resumes, but I know what happened. The typos, 2+ page resumes, stupid resumes (colored, photos, pointless quotes, unlegible), etc. were weeded out first. Then they went through looking for keywords that I had previously told them to search for. At this point they had a set of 100+ resumes that all looked the same. It's a problem, I can't think of a solution that will get the truly qualified people the position over the exaggeraters/liars.