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US to Pay to go to ISS
forgotten_my_nick writes "According to BBC News, Russia has announced that it will no longer ferry US astronauts to space for free (It has been doing so for two years). From 2006 the US will be expected to pay."
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They aren't trying to profit they are trying to break even. If Russia had the budget NASA has I would be willing to bet they could create a reusable shuttle. How the hell does Bush think we can get to Mars when we need to borrow Russia's space fleet to get to ISS? What a joke.
According to the article at first the US will pay in work already done on the ISS that the Russians didn't do.
As a US citizen, I'm curious if this is fallout from our wonderful public relations. Half the known world is pissed off at us, and it wouldn't surprise me if this isn't much more than Russia saying "You want to bum a ride? How much ya got for gas money? The price of rocket fuel isn't going down, ya know."
Hint to the current and future US Presidents: you may be the elected leader of a technological powerhouse, but you can't go it alone.
(it'll also pay for them to keep an eye out on Japan's technology, that the EU is becoming a collected economic force to bruise egos, and China's locomative-esque economy with about a third of the world's population, too, but who knows if they pay any attention)
Here are some examples from the list
Air Quality Monitor
Virtual Reality
Municiple Water prurification (So your tap water doesn't kill you.)
Solar Energy
Fire resistant material
Digital Imagry Breast Biopsy
Voice controlled wheel chair
And here are a bunch from the above link that were easy to cut and paste:
Advanced keyboards, Customer Service Software, Database Management System, Laser Surveying, Aircraft controls, Lightweight Compact Disc, Expert System Software, Microcomputers, and Design Graphics. Dustbuster, shock-absorbing helmets, home security systems, smoke detectors, flat panel televisions, high-density batteries, trash compactors, food packaging and freeze-dried technology, cool sportswear, sports bras, hair styling appliances, fogless ski goggles, self-adjusting sunglasses, composite golf clubs, hang gliders, art preservation, and quartz crystal timing equipment. Whale identification method, environmental analysis, noise abatement, pollution measuring devices, pollution control devices, smokestack monitor, radioactive leak detector, earthquake prediction system, sewage treatment, energy saving air conditioning, and air purification. Arteriosclerosis detection, ultrasound scanners, automatic insulin pump, portable x-ray device, invisible braces, dental arch wire, palate surgery technology, clean room apparel, implantable heart aid, MRI, bone analyzer, and cataract surgery tools. Gasoline vapor recovery, self-locking fasteners, machine tool software, laser wire stripper, lubricant coating process, wireless communications, engine coatings, and engine design. Storm warning services (Doppler radar), firefighters' radios, lead poison detection, fire detector, flame detector, corrosion protection coating, protective clothing, and robotic hands. So yeah, I'd say mankind has gained something from going to space. And to think all of this would have been developed in the timeframe without NASA and its goals is laughable.
They were planning on studying the effects of starvation in space, but the Russians managed to screw up the experiment.
Ewige Blumenkraft.
As a matter of fact, the Europeans are expecting the US to hold up its end of the bargain. They spent millions of dollars on the ESA lab module for the ISS, and due to the grounding of the Shuttle fleet, it is on the ground gathering cobwebs. What is really angering the ESA is NASA toying with the idea of breaking their contract by permanently grounding the Shuttle fleet and never lofting the lab.
Without the Russian's heavy lift capacity for re-supply, the ISS would have to be abandoned, which entails a large risk that the station would undergo a catastrophic failure. NASA would actually like to pay the Russians and have the funds to do so. Unfortunately, there is a slight obstacle in the form of the Iran non-Proliferation Agreement of 2000.
Here is a picture of which countries were supposed to supply what though many pieces on this picture will probably never make it in to space. Most of the important Russians parts did.
... gasp ... risking anyone's left on space exploration. He clearly should have been booted years ago. Fact is space exploration is dangerous, do your best to make it less so but don't give up just because you can't make it 100% safe. Astronauts aren't astronauts if they can't accept the risk they might get killed.
I assure you the Russians built the heart of the station that is there now, the Zarya Control Module and the Zvezda crew quarters. Zarya is called a U.S. component only because the U.S. paid for it through Boeing but it was built in Russia.
The U.S. was supposed to build the Crew Return Vehicle which would have allowed it to be fully manned but that was long ago cancelled. When it was the U.S. killed any prospect of the seven man crew which pretty much killed the ISS as ever being useful. The current crew can barely maintain it and don't do much research, not like its any good for any zero G research anyway.
The U.S. is building a lot of solar panels many of which are probably never going to fly and aren't the most challenging part of the station.
Russia had a full functional space station for like a decade called Mir. Most of their expertise is at the heart of the current ISS core. Not sure NASA could have successfully flown anything without them. If you recall during the years Russia was in Mir, NASA and Boeing was churning out one failed ISS design after another, none of which flew and all of which just filled Boeing's pork filled belly.
I imagine Russia is regretting they deorbited Mir as a condition of joining ISS. It was past its prime and on its last legs but at least it was all theirs. ISS is all shiny and new and flush with squandered U.S. tax dollars but its probably going to end being pathetic and doing anything useful. Russia was getting a whole lot more done with a whole lot less with Mir. I think the modules now forming the core of ISS would have gone in to Mir2 if they could have scraped together the cash for it. I imagine they have been a lot happier and got more done if they weren't bogged down in the political morasse that is ISS.
Maybe the shuttle will fly again and the ISS will get kind of on track again but I really doubt it. Its probably never going to get much beyond where it is today, and Russia will most probably have to keep it alive while NASA's manned space program finishes cratering. Maybe thing will improve at NASA with O'Keefe gone but I doubt it. Its pretty obvious his head was completely bent by the Columbia disaster and he was totally paralyzed at the prospect of
@de_machina
The comments so far seem to be a flamefest on Russia. Personally, I think that Russia is justified on asking for money to pay to send US astronauts into space. So what that the US is building most of the ISS personally? The Russians could care less, the US' money isn't going torwards them, but to the building. All the Russians see is that they're lugging an extra American and equipment into space at their expense. It should be common courtesy to pay back a bit for their services. You'd be pissed if that guy in the carpool who lives half an hour out of town didn't even say "Thanks" for picking him up every morning. The US should realize that they can't rely on other countries to be their taxis forever while they stall on the next generation of US spaceflight.
I imagine that was a factor but I think you are really underestimating the experience the Russians brought to the project. They have a couple decades of hands on experience with long duration space station construction and operation. The Zarya and Zvedza modules they built are the heart of the ISS. The U.S. had no space station experience other than then the short duration Skylab flights 30 years ago which were mostly stunts to get rid of the rest of the Apollo rockets.
... one failed space station design after another at huge expense over twenty years, with nothing flown.
It was pretty obvious the U.S. has since lost "the right stuff" to do a space station. First sign
I think the "keeping Russian space scientists" employed was little more than saving face. In reality I think the U.S. and Boeing came to the conclusion that using the experienced Russian engineers was the only way to get actually get a working space station off the ground. They in fact paid them to build a Mir2 and it became the heart of ISS. The U.S. sure did love to rant that the Russian modules were behind schedule and over budget. Well this convieniently glosses over the fact that those were two of the most complex and challenging modules in the station, and that the U.S. and Boeing had flailed for nearly 20 years, squandered billlions and billions of dollars, and hadn't managed to build ANYTHING. More than a little hypocrisy there.
I've seen more than a few people point out how the U.S. pays for everything on ISS. Well this is for damn sure if you count the nearly 100 billion the U.S. wasted in those awful years when they didn't building anything, and the billion dollar a pop Shuttle flights versus the tens of millions for a Soyuz or Progress flight, and it probably costs 20-50 times as much to employ Boeing engineers to build a component as it does Russian engineers. All in all I don't think the total dollars squandered really counts for much other than to prove that nobody squanders money like NASA and Boeing. The Russians have launched and run multiple successful long duration space stations for a tiny fraction of what NASA and Boeing have wasted on ISS. I think they deserve a lot more kudos for their frugality and their ability to get bang for the buck, versus the NASA/Boeing aptitude for wasting billions of dollars.
@de_machina
Re:Repaid already? (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 30, @01:45AM (#11216800)
Spit on you? SPIT ON YOU? You thin skinned little bitch. How is it that Americans get skewered (rightly so) when they reflexively interpret disagreement with US policy as anti-americanism, but Canadians and Europeans cry "The United States SPIT on us!" everytime Washington doesn't do things exactly the way you want? The Administration asked for help. They went to the UN to explain their reasons. You may disagree. That's certainly your right as a sovereign nation. But don't starting crying that you were spit on.
responding to AC is ussually a bad idea but:
I'd say a populace smear campaign against france would constitute spitting on them. You did try to rename french fries. I'm sure that was a mature and adult way of acknolowging opposing opinions. I was also in california shortly after canada declined to support you war. And I was literally spit upon. So yes a portion of your population are a little less emotionally mature then children and you are one of them AC.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Sigh.
As usual we get the slew of high moderated posts about how the americans built everything, and how the russians are now gouging them.
Some people blame the americans, others the russians. All didn't read the article.
Fact: The russians are currently ferrying everything to the station.
Fact: NASA is grounded.
Fact: The russians are very low on funds, and can't afford to keep doing this.
They've stated that they'll wait to see if NASA meets its May deadline to get their shuttles going again.
They've stated that they want to negotiate something to ease the burden (such as bartering for the man hours they currently owe for other work).
America's response hasn't been made clear yet.
Is this gouging? No. They haven't even entered negotiations yet.
Should they gouge? Some of you "capitalist or die" affictionados may think so, but that kind of thinking is what drives the CEOs who only look to the next quarter's earnings, and what they can get out of it before the thing collapses.
This doesn't work in world politics, as can be seen from the fallout of Iraq.
I'm tired of this anti-french crap.
My country was fighting, winning and losing wars long before yourcontinent waseven discovered. For once in your life, please open a fucking historybook.
I spent a year and a half in your country, have you ever been in mine?
What happened to the USA? Please someone explain to me, what the fuckhappenedto your country?
Man, like hundreds of thousand of French citizens I was in the fuckingstreetswith a large panel saying "WE LOVE YOU AMERICANS" on September, 11th2001. Mycountry sent its best firemens to help yours trying to save lives out of the WTC ruins.
Your country saved mine during the second world war and many of us went in Normandie to put some flowers on your soldiers' tombs thinking of the great sacrifice that it was for you and your country. If you think that we canforget that then you don't know anything about us.
But then, everything changed, just like that. What went wrong?
In 2001, Rumsfeld, Condi Rice and even Bush repeated, on the TV, that Iraq and Saddam were not a threat and suddenly, in 2002, Saddam became the worstevilin the world? Give me a break.
France's position was that we should have given more time of the UNinspectorsto check for Saddam's "weapons of mass destruction". Your country decided not too. Today, we know that you were wrong. It happens and, please, get over it.
Then Bush came and said that Iraq needed this invasion and that iraqis would welcome Americans. Please, do it again, open a fucking history book printed outside of Israel to understand why this is just fucking ridiculously stupid. If you think that you can support Israel on one side and then invade an arab country and be welcomed, let me tell you that you are fucking nuts.
So France "surrenders" and is "afraid of war"? Hum, maybe it's because France has a 13-centuries long history and has been devastated many times,including twice in just the last century? You never have suffered like we didafter the 2 world wars, you *cannot* understand. I'm not surprised that Germany had the same point of view on the Iraq conflict, they suffered much more than wedid. Actually, even in the countries of "the coalition", most people were against the war.
War is fucking bad, it should always be avoided at all costs. If you don't understand that war is never necessary, unless if for self-defense when someone attacks you, then I would say that your country should get an history before trying to tamper with world affairs.
This "pre emptive war" thing is the biggest amount of crap I have ever seen. Right now, some corporations are making huge amounts of money out of this crap and if you think that they care about your children dying in Iraq, let me tell you that you are plain wrong, it's all about dividend and return on investment.
Oh, and yes, diplomacy WAS possible with Saddam. Did you look at his face in February 2003, when the war was imminent? He gave you all he had! All the missiles he had, everything. He was ready to accept next to anything.
Just because some people abused the "oil for food" program and didn'tfollowthe UN sanctions doesn't mean that Saddam wasn't ready to comply. These sanctions have never been really enforced, sometimes you just need toput some weight in the balance.
This war was, is and will always be unacceptable. The vast majority of the world tells you that since the beginning and still you elected the man that lied.
Oh, and about the "freedom fries" act (that one proved that these peoplein the Congress are not actual adults), I would say I feel very happythat my country is associated to the word Freedom because yes, that'swhat we stand for.
Iraq: war to save the U
My wife still shudders at the Perrier embargo of '03 when all things French were evil and products weren't making it to our local grocery.
Basically, the U.S. is a brain, heart and soul dead shell with a lot of weapons. Even at our local metropolitan Mensa gathering we have to avoid the "Rush Limbaugh is God" table. This has all been analyzed and put on the bookshelves already. Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death. Berman's Twilight of American Culture.
Personally, I've decided I don't care. A purposeful Nazi or a pig-ignorant Nazi, they are both repugnant and I'm ashamed of my countrymen. But you have to realize that the American people are pig-ignorant. Forget quality public education, we don't even have free media. I gave up on so-called "liberal" public radio after the drumbeat to war in March of '03 when one of their shows headlined some guy from a military college on "Socrates, the soldiering years!" Talk about pseudo-intellectual target market warmongering taken to the ridiculous. If it weren't for the meager checks and balances of the internet, Clear Channel would probably be telling the U.S. heartland that most of the world has been taken over by aliens, so to speak.
And they'd believe it.
America had been discovered at the point the French were fighting wars all the time. It was happily occupied by native Americans who weren't upsetting too many people except the odd passing viking.
It just happened to get invaded, and then various local terrorist forces (by the current definition) overthrew the "legitimate" goverment.
The supreme irony of course is that the only reason the revolution succeeded was assistance from the French whose new ideals were of a republic and not dissimilar to the US of the time.
And freedom.. Freedom to be persecuted by your own media industry ? Freedom to have your web site (ie your printing press) taken away without legal due process ?
"Freedom" in the USA and many other countries (the UK for example) is a marketing exercise used to control the people. Look beyond it, what matters is not being associated with a word but acting accordingly.
Alan