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When Scientific Publishing was Withheld

karvind writes "Article in Physical Review Focus reveals the silence practiced by Physical Review during WWII to delay publishing results related to fission, the splitting of an atom's nucleus accompanied by a prodigious release of energy. From the article: Because of fears that Germany would use American research to pursue an atomic weapon, the Physical Review agreed to withhold reports of significant advances. It was not until several months after an atomic bomb exploded over Nagasaki, Japan, that Phys. Rev. published the paper announcing the discovery of plutonium, the material used in that bomb. Physicist Abraham Pais later called the journal's silence on the subject 'the most important nonevent in the history of the Physical Review.'"

52 comments

  1. Science is a lot more ideological than you'd think by Knights+who+say+'INT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Firstuvall, I'd like to applaud the uncommon scientific focus of this; topics related to science in general are gee-whiz news of space exploration, not about science in its making. I would guess many slashdotters are scientists, and this brings good rest from the "SCO says they own Mickey Mouse and the patents to condoms" days.

    That said, peer-reviewed outfits are still ran by humans. Neural nets have been essentially blocked by the nonparametric statistics community for a long while -- leading to the bizarre situation of having electrical engineers understand a lot about time-series prediction that the people who are actually involved with it don't -- and is only now making advance as econometricians -- who typically develop parametric statistical methods and then try to fit everything to their methods -- are adopting it, partly because of sheer job-market pressure.

    And all that is in a pretty technical, numbers-in-numbers-out field.

    So you pick up a peer-reviewed rag in economics -- and if economics isn't science, medicine isn't either --, and it risks having at least three types of ideological bias: a political one (generally from the more-or-less-state-intervention kind), a established-scientific-practices one (people already know their field, and getting game-theorists to accept category theory and arrow-chasing proofs is proving hard) _and_ a schools-competition one (possibly linked to political issues, since hyping up schools linked to free-market stances will harm the more-intervention camp).

    Yes, you could say that physics has less politics involved. But when you're dealing with the very nature of "actual stuff", you are bumping into very deep philosophical stances that may be much harder to shake than political convictions with the scientific process only. I know many people who have come to adopt a more-free-market POV after being exposed to general equilibrium and microeconomic theory, but it's harder to convince people -- Einstein wouldn't -- that the universe is ultimately stochastic, or that our behaviour might be evolutionarily stable and a product of our genes, etc. etc.

    In the end, economics has nothing like the controversy on sociobiology. Outside radical circles who have been essentially ignoring economic theory since uncertainty and assymetric information have come into play in the models, there is a very deep consensus among economists at least in the basic issues -- from Paul Krugman to Arthur Laffer.

    Politics is just politics. We have our own interests, and we act to defend them. And after a while, people start to analyze what people do in the defense of their interests, and the action of special-interest groups, rent-seeking behaviour, etc. becomes clear.

    Personal philosophies are a lot muddier. And physics touches the bottom of them.

  2. The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Scarblac · · Score: 4, Informative

    For people who like this subject matter and want to read more about the history of the development of atomic bombs (including the history of early 20th century atomic physics), I can recommend The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes. Solid history _and_ good writing.

    I bought it after it was recommended in some other Slashdot post, and loved it.

    --
    I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
    1. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by elecngnr · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That is a very excellent book. In fact, I believe the main point of this article is dealt with in that book. The import of this was that until that point, scientists had been much more isolated from these types of political interventions. As a previous poster here has pointed out, this intervention is more common now.

      I think something else to consider with this was that a lot of the people pushing to keep the Germans in the dark had a good idea of what they were dealing with. Many of these scientists were former residents of Germany, Italy, and some of the other countries of Europe. They felt it to their core that Hitler would stop at nothing and would use all the means at his disposal to win. They were firm in their belief that if Hitler got the bomb, he would use it without hesitation. It seemed to them that there were two ways to defeat this.

      First, keeping Hitler in the dark as much as possible. Reports after the fact on Hitler Germany's progess with a bomb show that they were pretty well in the dark. Secondly, they thought they should work towards building a bomb as quickly as possible to defeat Hitler. They were pretty succuessful on that point too.

      Another good book by Rhodes that continues from where "Making the Atomic Bomb leaves off is Dark Sun: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684 824140/qid=1104676325/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/002-572571 6-0081606?v=glance&s=books
      --
      Having done so much with so little for so long, I now can do anything with nothing at all.
    2. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "They were firm in their belief that if Hitler got the bomb, he would use it without hesitation."
      But they seemed to overlook the fact that their country would use it without hesitation.
      Eventual winners blowing up the world = heroes.
      Eventual losers blowing up the world = terrorists.

    3. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by MemoryDragon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually Germany itself was not so in the dark, the core scientists who basically could have figured it out, refused to work on it on a serious scale.

      The english basically captured the core scientists which worked on the bomb, and put them into a camp under surveillance. After they got the news that the US had the bomb (the war was over by then) they seriously sat together and figured out how things were working correctly withing a few days (they did not have anything to prevent anymore and basically could focus on science again)

      Don't forget germany had in the 20s and 30s some of the best physics scientists in existence and not all of them were jews and had to emigrate. So basically the knowledge was there, but call it the hand of god, that the scientists who could figure it out how to build it refused to do it innerly.

    4. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by rgmoore · · Score: 1
      After they got the news that the US had the bomb (the war was over by then) they seriously sat together and figured out how things were working correctly withing a few days (they did not have anything to prevent anymore and basically could focus on science again)

      Of course building a bomb from scratch is orders of magnitude more difficult than observing a bomb and figuring out how it works. It's the classic difference between designing and bringing to market a new product and reverse-engineering it. The scientists studying the properties of the actual bomb were able to avoid all of the pitfalls and blind alleys that the original developers had to pursue. They weren't producing engineering diagrams for an actual functioning bomb, either, just a theoretical understanding of how a bomb could work. They also didn't have to build a whole nuclear industry to produce the required bomb-making materials, which historically was by far the most expensive and time-consuming part of the Manhattan Project.

      --

      There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

    5. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      They did not observe it, they just got the news. The scientists were basically half imprisoned in a castle by the english, because they wanted to figure out how close germany was to the bomb. There is a protocol of the surveilance and there is a theatre play made out of it. (I am sure somewhere on the UK government site you can find the protocol, it is no secret) To my knowledge the just figured the theory and what materials to use out by calculations, building the bomb is a different issue, but that does not change the fact that Germany could have had it, if the core scientists didnt refuse to work on it on a serious scale during war.

    6. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by RWerp · · Score: 1

      This is a very cynical point of view, which ignores the difference between Hitler's IIIrd Reich and about every other country on this planet. I don't how this could get modded as 'Insightful'. Too bad I spent my mod points.

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
    7. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Actually you are keeping up one of the great myths. The germans never figured out critical mass correctly. They vastly over estimated it. Gemany and many scientists love the myth of the noble scientists that prevented the evil Hitler from getting the bomb. I am afriad it is just that a myth. Germany never put the resources into building a bomb because Hitler did not trust Physics because it was a "Jewish" science. That combined with the constant bombing really prevented Germany from making any real progress thank goodness.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    8. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by elecngnr · · Score: 1

      I hope that you are not saying that Hitler is only a terrorist because he lost WWII.

      --
      Having done so much with so little for so long, I now can do anything with nothing at all.
    9. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by elecngnr · · Score: 1

      I am not disagreeing with you, but I have read both sides to that. I do agree that there was probably some hesistancy on their part to go forward. I am just not convinced yet that it was a concerted effort to prevent the bomb from being made. I think it would be easier for them to say after the fact that they were dragging their feet. By saying this, they were hoping not be associated with Hitler.

      --
      Having done so much with so little for so long, I now can do anything with nothing at all.
    10. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Nutria · · Score: 1

      the core scientists who basically could have figured it out, refused to work on it on a serious scale.

      Oh, puhleeze.

      Those scientists were acting just like (most) every other German: "I didn't do it. I didn't know what was going on. It's not my fault! Boo Hoo."

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    11. Re:The Making of the Atomic Bomb by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      After WWII, the great physicist Werner Heisenberg who had been the head of the German effort to build the Bomb pretented that he had torpedoed the effort so that his country and the Nazis would never get it.

      In spite of this justification he got shunned by his peers until his death. Many of his peers were Jewish and could never belive him.

      Heisenberg made a famous trip to Copenhagen during the war to meet with Niels Bohr. No one knows what the two men talked about, but Bohr (who was anti-Nazi) was reputedly furious after Heisenberg left.

      The excellent play Copenhagen was written by Michael Frayn about this event. If it plays in your city do yourself a favour, go and see it.

  3. The real lesson is... by CodeWanker · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "A Soviet scientist deduced from the Americans' silence on the topic that they were pursuing an atomic bomb. The Soviets soon followed suit."

    Amateur paranoiacs cannot hope to compete with professional ones.

    --


    "Wow. Now THAT'S a lot of angry Indians." - Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer
    1. Re:The real lesson is... by Zachary+Kessin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well during WWII the US physics community got real quiet. Basicly everyone was working on the manhattan project, or the rad lab at MIT (Development of Radar), or any number of other war work projects. So the journals got real quiet for a number of years.

      Remember that many of the scientists involved were Jews who had left Europe to get as far from the Nazi's as they could (Albert Einstein, Leo Szelard, Edward Teller, Enriqo Fermi* and many others)

      * Fermi was not Jewish, but his wife was.

      --
      Erlang Developer and podcaster
    2. Re:The real lesson is... by daniil · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Norbert Wiener has commented on this topic, albeit from a sligthly different point of view, saying that what really made it easy for the Soviets to build their own bomb was knowing that it would work. Before the first bombs went off, the pursuit for an atomic bomb had been like feeling your way in the dark. It wasn't even certain whether the research would take anywhere, whether an atomic bomb was possible at all. But after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was only the matter of finding out how it could be done.

      --
      Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
    3. Re:The real lesson is... by jfengel · · Score: 4, Funny

      I hope nobody notices my silence on the subject of death-beam lasers.

    4. Re:The real lesson is... by Muhammar · · Score: 2, Informative

      "A Soviet scientist deduced from the Americans' silence on the topic that they were pursuing an atomic bomb. The Soviets soon followed suit."

      "what really made it easy for the Soviets to build their own bomb was knowing that it would work. It wasn't even certain whether the research would take anywhere, whether an atomic bomb was possible at all."

      To anyone who is interested in the history of the project and its continuation in hydrogen bomb effort, I strongly recommend Gregg Herken's "Brotherhood of the Bomb: The Tangled Lives and Loyalties of Robert Oppenheimer, Ernest Lawrence, and Edward Teller".

      The focus of this detailed book is on personal politics of the project in US but the important developments in USSR are mentioned also. Using declassified documents from KGB and FBI archives, Herken shows that Kurchatov had a complete scoop on MAUD report (British effort) and then on Manhattan project. By espionage, they got everything US had known until 1946. The first russian nuclear reactor was based on Hanford reactors. The first russian nuke was exact replica of Fat Man. That much for uncertainity.

      What realy changed in Russia after Hiroshima was not the attitude of scientists but the priorities of the political leadership. Beria the Terrible ("He is our Himmler", Stalin introduced him playfuly to Churchil) became the boss of the russian program. Money was no problem. The expenditures was fantastic while russians were dying of starvation and lack of medical care.

      --
      I doubt that we will ever figure out - and I suspect that even if we did figure out we couldn't do much about it
    5. Re:The real lesson is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "A Soviet scientist deduced from the Americans' silence on the topic that they were pursuing an atomic bomb. The Soviets soon followed suit."

      It's an information theory problem. Before the war, there was a steady stream of related work that was being published. During the war, that dried up. The lack of information is information in itself.

      Unfortunately, there really wasn't a suitable way around this. They couldn't publish material that would help the enemy. They couldn't publish misinformation in its place, as all the physicists reading would call shenanigans. A pre-emptive approach of not allowing publishing of this nature at all that might have been implemented before the war would stifle the scientific process. There's no real way to combat this kind of information leak.

    6. Re:The real lesson is... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "Amateur paranoiacs cannot hope to compete with professional ones."

      In Stalin's *ahem* Soviet Russia, there were two kinds of people: the paranoid and the dead.

    7. Re:The real lesson is... by sanermind · · Score: 2, Informative
      An even more interesting demonstration of information assymetry exists in Hitler's decision not to use tabun and sarin, the axis' most potent secret weapon. The allies had no idea of it's existance until after the war. It might well have turned the tide if used against the invasion.
      From that moment on, no matter how tempted he felt to use his secret gases, Hitler had always to balance in his mind the conviction of his scientists that the Allies had them too.
      Had he known how flimsy the evidence was which supported these convictions he might have thought again. Nazi scientists, for example, read great significance into the fact that references to compounds related to nerve gases suddenly ceased to be mentioned in American scientific journals at the beginning of the war. They correctly deduced this was a result of censorship by the US authorities. What they did not know was that this was to protect the secrecy of the insecticide DDT then under development, not the secrecy of any new war gas. In other words, the Führer had been misled. Neither the Americans nor the British possessed a chemical weapon remotely capable of matching nerve gas.
      From Here.
      --

      ---
      the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
  4. "If God had to use a computer, it would be a Mac." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I do use a computer, and yes, it is a Mac.

    Sincerely,
    steve jobs

  5. Re:Science is a lot more ideological than you'd th by WGR · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Economics is not a science because there are no experiments to prove its hypotheses, unlike medicen which does it as much as possible.

    Economics does not use the scientific method of observations-hypotheseis-experiment-revisions. Medicine is willing to use a clinical trial where some part of the observed population gets new treatments and others don't. Economists seldom do this, with an all or nothing approach to changes in economic structures that prevent proper scientific analysis.

  6. Re:Science is a lot more ideological than you'd th by zhiwenchong · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I agree that science is more policitized than many people think. But let me just add my two cents worth regarding pseudo-"black box" methods.

    One of the reasons Neural Networks were viewed with some doubt was because of their "pseudo-black box" nature. Train it enough and you will get a model that gives you a good fit for your data, but you have no insight as to interpret the results, not least because you will almost never get the same model twice from the same data (the weights will be different every time you train them).

    The neural networks idea sounded interesting because of the "cool" biological analogue it has with neurons firing in your brain (and it had interesting jargon to boot).

    But if you look at its mathematical description it boils down to doing a simple regression/curve fitting with a limited nonlinear model that uses exponential functions (known in the NN community as "activation functions") like the sigmoid etc. (You can actually derive this if you write out the equations for a simple 1-2 layer neural network).

    It spits out data that fits the curve, but tells you nothing about the correlations inside them. In the 1980s, people were attracted to it because of its simplicity and the fact that it seemed to be feasible way of mimicking a human's pattern matching abilities. It was all the rage back then. In the 1990s or so, people started to become aware of its weaknesses and began to look at it more circumspectly.

    To give you an example, most credit card companies use Neural Networks to approve credit card applications. They pump your application data through a trained model (based on past classifications done by humans), and it spits out an "Approved" or "Not Approved" flag.

    Unfortunately, you have no idea why a certain application is approved or not approved. A neural network model can't tell you that. It's only designed to give you an answer based on the its training weights, i.e. it only models the relationship between Y and X, and not the Y and X spaces themselves.

    Instead, if you apply a multivariate statistical method such as PLS (via a NIPALS algorithm), the model will tell you how things are correlated (in a easy to interpret graphical fashion). It will pretty much be doing the same thing as the neural network, except that it models the X and Y spaces simultaneously, compensates for missing data by deriving from the correlation structures; all this by transforming the variables into a latent variable space that captures the maximum covariance in the data. All the equations are transparent and have a solid basis in the mathematics of linear transformations and projections.

    And you get the same model each time, so it can tell you exactly why your credit card application was turned down. (Too many unpaid bills, for instance)

    It is easy to become enamored of black-box methods (I know I was), but ultimately the methods that survive are the ones built on rigorous mathematical/scientific foundations. (not always possible, especially in areas like economics, but it is something to strive for)

    Most ideas and theories get superseded over time, but black-box methods and theories produce the most controversies. Sometimes you can't blame the community for being a little skeptical of them.

  7. Re:Science is a lot more ideological than you'd th by Knights+who+say+'INT · · Score: 3, Informative

    According to a theorem usually attributed to Cybenko, any continuous nonlinear function can be represented by a linear combination of sigmoid functions of a linear combination of your parameters. In neural nets terms, a single hidden layer net with 2n+1 neurons in your hidden layer can represent _any_ continuous function.

    That doesn't mean the usual neural net training algorithms are able to achieve that representation, but it's still a strong result, and it mostly justifies neural nets being increasingly looked at seriously at nonparametric (without individual input effect parameters as an usual OLS model would yield) statistics.

    All in all, I do have a lot of faith in the future of nonparametric methods. They might be no substitute of empirical experiment (and that's what the parametric statistical methods that comprise econometrics strive for), but the sheer success of neural nets in spite of their lukewarm academic reception shows they can be quite useful.

  8. Re:"If God had to use a computer, it would be a Ma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I read Jobs uses an Intel laptop with NextSTEP on it

    sorry to respond to the frivolous

  9. Medicine is a profession, not a science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its purpose is to suck money out of sick people, it was true about tribal healers two thousand years ago, it it also true in case of modern physicians.

    Science is about knowledge not about making money.
    Medicine is ONLY about making money. The same is true about law and economics.

    Physics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Biology, Geology,etc., THESE are REAL SCIENCES.

    Mathematics, although a very important branch of human knowledge,is not a science, because it does not use the scientific method.

    Scientific method is about making nature answer questions (through observations or experiments), then build theories based on these answers, suggesting new experiments based on theories, etc.

    Mathematicians dont make observations or experiments, just build axiomatic systems, prove theorems, etc.

    1. Re:Medicine is a profession, not a science by MemoryDragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lets leave this aside, but economics is in my opinion no real science, because it uses the wrong methods and aims for the wrong goals. Economics comes all down to psychology (I would call economics the psychology of greed) but yet they try to enforce the rules after the whole system is tried to be described after mathematics. Modern mathematics failed basically in one area to be applied usefully and that is psychology. All the models which are applied to economics usually only work out in the best case because the description only cann fill one angle instead of proximity patterns. And in the end there usually comes the case where the system of formulas applied to being greedy crumbles to dust. Modern economics is the closest thing to alchemy we have nowadays.

  10. Re: economics is not a science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    "economics is not a science"

    is astronomy? is paleotology? is geography?
    How do you do experiments in paleobiology?

    Granted, much of econ. is layered with preconceptions; much of it IS covet , unconscious, politics.

  11. Some silence is bought by davidwr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yes, much of the silence in scientific circles is political or, as in the case of wartime, to protect national interests.

    Private interests get in the game too though. Drug studies are squelched if the sponsors don't like the results, and people wind up dying. Decades-old industry studies of smoking tobacco never saw the light of day until recently. You always hear rumors about car and energy companies not telling all they know about more efficient motors and fuels, but "those are just rumors."

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  12. Re:Missile defense study by rbanffy · · Score: 0

    Reason never stopped the military before. I doubt it will now.

  13. slightly OT: nitpick by ChipMonk · · Score: 0

    Plutonium was invented, not discovered. Uranium is the heaviest naturally-occurring element.

    Feel free to nit-pick back.

    1. Re:slightly OT: nitpick by Hartree · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not really.

      Plutonium was being produced in the Oklo natural nuclear reactor that was running in Gabon 2 billion years ago. It had decayed away by the time we showed up on the scene. See this, for example.

      We learned of it by making it, but nature had done it long before us.

    2. Re:slightly OT: nitpick by Detritus · · Score: 1

      That's an Earth-centric point of view. It is being created every time there is a supernova.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    3. Re:slightly OT: nitpick by ChipMonk · · Score: 1

      Well, as your sibling post pointed out, the Oklo reactor and other naturally-occurring reactors were going to the super-heavy elements. But it was my understanding (no longer) that super-novae were required to produce anything heavier than nickel, and could produce anything up to uranium.

    4. Re:slightly OT: nitpick by Detritus · · Score: 1
      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    5. Re:slightly OT: nitpick by charlesbakerharris · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you earth-centrist bastard...

    6. Re:slightly OT: nitpick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd never heard of the Oklo fission reactors prior to your post, so after a quick google and some reading I find them absolutely fascinating.

      Thanks for the informative post.

    7. Re:slightly OT: nitpick by Hartree · · Score: 1

      I first heard about it in a Scientific American article in the mid 70s. It lets us put some pretty strong bounds on how much the laws of physics, and the values of some physical constants have changed over the period since the reactors shut down. (We "assume" normally that they don't change, but we have no a priori guarantee they haven't. It's nice having a real test via the nuclear decay rates and isotope ratios of the fission products.)

      It also gives us some info on how fission decay products move when buried in the ground over very long periods. That last is currently pretty important given the debates over what to do with nuclear waste for long time storage.

  14. Re:Science is a lot more ideological than you'd th by rgmoore · · Score: 3, Informative
    Economics is not a science because there are no experiments to prove its hypotheses, unlike medicen which does it as much as possible.

    There are two problems with this argument:

    1. It is possible to perform economic experiments. I've participated (as a subject) in microeconomic experiments. The experimenters would present us with a designed trading setup and test to see how we behaved; they ensured that we behaved rationally by giving cash payouts tied to our economic success in the experimental system. Those kinds of experiments put much of microeconomics on a sound scientific footing.
    2. If lack of experiments prevents something from being a science, then you can scratch fields like Astronomy and Paleontology off the list of sciences. Those fields are sciences, though, because it doesn't really matter whether you're studying results of planned experiments or pre-existing events. If it's possible to isolate factors and compare their significance, it's possible to test hypotheses, and that's the true test of science. That is possible in economics- it's possible to study the impact of taxes by comparing different American states with different tax codes, for instance- so economics counts as a science.
    --

    There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

  15. It's still being censored!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Physics Review site is only allowing people who pay beaucoup dollars to view the articles. I thought we already paid for this stuff with public funds when the original research was done. It's time to open up the results to everyone instead of just a few.

  16. Klaus Fuchs by Toby+The+Economist · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    > In the end, the absence of publications on fission
    > in the Physical Review was too glaring to go
    > unnoticed. A Soviet scientist deduced from the
    > Americans' silence on the topic that they were
    > pursuing an atomic bomb. The Soviets soon followed
    > suit.

    Of course, Klaus Fuchs passing on research details from the Manhatten Project helped.

    --
    Toby

    1. Re:Klaus Fuchs by mickyflynn · · Score: 1

      and the Rosenburgs. Probably Alger Hiss and others in the Truman administration, too.

  17. Re:Science is a lot more ideological than you'd th by 4of12 · · Score: 1

    they ensured that we behaved rationally by giving cash payouts tied to our economic success in the experimental system.

    I've participated in economic experimental games like that, too. Rational behavior sounds like something that should be easy to gauge, but it's not.

    The problem is that, in the real world, there is this constantly shifting layer of perception that participants have of cost and of reward. By changing peoples' perceptions, it doesn't matter too much that they have this rational decision-making capability. If you can be made to believe a choice is critical to your very survival, then you will be willing to bear high costs. Even if I, by rational analysis, think you are being deluded.

    When cars, deodorants and extended warranties are sold by appealing to fear or to anxieties about one's sexual attractiveness, and sold quite effectively, you get an idea of just how weird our system is.

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
  18. Re:Science is a lot more ideological than you'd th by reg106 · · Score: 2, Informative
    According to a theorem usually attributed to Cybenko, any continuous nonlinear function can be represented by a linear combination of sigmoid functions of a linear combination of your parameters. In neural nets terms, a single hidden layer net with 2n+1 neurons in your hidden layer can represent _any_ continuous function.
    If you're talking about Cybenko's '89 paper, I believe you misunderstand the result. The main theorem simply says that for any continuous function f on the interval and any epsilon>0, there exists a "neural network" (hidden layer of n sigmoidal neurons) that is epsilon close to f in the infinity norm. So even if you had a training technique that could avoid all local minima, Cybenko's result does not indicate the number of neurons required to attain a certain epsilon. No guarantee of the quality of approximation is given for fixed n. (This is not surprising if you think through the case n=1,2.)

    Cybenko's result was more of a reality check for the NN community than anything else. If NNs didn't have this property, there wouldn't be much use in studying them. The Weierstrass Approximation theorem, which you can find in a good real analysis book, shows that plain old vanilla polynomials of the form sum(i=1,n) a_i x^i have the same property.

    Barron had a paper giving rate-of-approximation results for a certain class of functions. This starts to answer the question "how big should n be?" I'm not sure what new work has appeared along these lines. I've been out of touch with the NN community for a few years. That said, a lot of the learning people seem to be more excited about support vector machines and kernel methods these days. I guess some people group these techniques along with neural networks, but they lie on a much more solid foundation of statistics.

    cheers, Rick
  19. What defines a "Science" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is it that you use to distinguish "Science" fron "Non-Science"? And, how do the issues of bias enter into your asessment?

    In my opinion bias is not part of any "science". People do have biases and that affects hopw they go about their work and how they interpret their results. This issue is an inescapable aspect of humanity and shows up in all disciplines ranging from medicine to mathematics.

    But you specified that "...if economics isn't science, medicine isn't either..." but you didn't support that or provide any basis for comparing the two. What is it that invariably links the scientific-classification fate of medicine to that of economics? Or, to cite examples, what is it about Thomas Friedman's half-assed (and yes I do think it half-assed) "Golden Straightjacket" that makes it "science"?