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In the Year 2020

An anonymous reader writes "Every 5 years, the CIA funds a detailed forecast of the future 15 years hence. The biggest trend identified in the latest report is the economic and technological rise of Asia."

14 of 515 comments (clear)

  1. India Economy by Coneasfast · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Something i would like to mention

    As the report states, India and China will both be big economic powers partly due to their huge population, but the standards of living won't necessarily be better.

    I've been to India 12 years ago and i've been last year, and yes the standards of living have vastly improved, but for it to be at an acceptable level, it definitely won't take another 15 years. My hope is within 50 years (and that's being optimistic).

    --
    Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
  2. +5: Anti-Bush Tirade by goldspider · · Score: 5, Interesting

    OK, trollish subject aside (and yes I believe that's why it was modded up), what makes you believe that anyone else would be any more fiscally responsible?

    I'll agree that Bush isn't doing us any favors, but you don't replace one big spender with another and expect things to be any different.

    Case in point: Bush is trying to overhaul Social Security and rescue it from the inevitable financial ruin that Bill Clinton predicted in 1998. What are Democrats saying in response? That there is no financial crisis in Social Security, that the problem can be fixed by simply raising taxes.

    Let me reiterate: Bush isn't doing this country's finances any favors. But neither would Democrats. The whole lot of them need to be given a lesson on how to spend other peoples' money (hint: sparingly).

    --
    "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    1. Re:+5: Anti-Bush Tirade by jp10558 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree that many people don't get economics. I probably don't myself. However, as the big picture goes, why do so many conservitaves miss the big picture in a different way?

      In your above senario, let's say there is no Social Services and welfare (to work in many places). So that person has -$$ because of bad life judgements.

      As a liberal, I don't care about that person. I'm looking at a big picture - those childern and that woman having no money will still cost me, even if I don't pay into social programs.

      Why? Here:

      Instead of preventative health care, they end up in the emergency room. But can't pay that much larger bill. Guess what - that gets passed on to people who can pay the bill - you and I.

      Even if we don't treat people at the emergency room regardless of proof of insurance it costs us.

      How? Here:

      Now, when you are having a heart attack (or whatever) and the paramedics show up, someone has to find your proof of insurance or give them a large wad of cash so they know you can pay for treatment. Guess what, while they were running the forms, you died! Doesn't that suck? But at least you didn't have to pay towards the people you listed above.

      Lets get away from medicine. Those people who get no help from anyone now are trying to feed themselves. Look at the innercity, what do they do to get money? They have no skills to get a job with, so they either start dealing drugs, or start stealing things.

      Either way, now you pay - more - in both losing areas of the city you feel safe in, and in a larger police force to try and stop such crime, and possibly in the additional hassle of dealing with police more often.

      So, I don't think the above sees the big picture any better than your opponents. Often, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
  3. No mention of Peak Oil by vrmlguy · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Two points from the paper:
    Despite the trend toward more efficient energy use, total energy consumed probably will rise by about 50 percent in the next two decades compared to a 34 percent expansion from 1980-2000, with an increasing share provided by petroleum.
    According to the petroleum producers, at current rates of consumption the world's current petroleum reserves will be exhausted by 2040. A fifty percent increase in consumption will exhaust them much more quickly. A few back-of-the-spreadsheet calculations indicate that we could run out of oil by 2028.
    The International Energy Agency assesses that with substantial investment in new capacity, overall energy supplies will be sufficient to meet growing global demand. Continued limited access of the international oil companies to major fields could restrain this investment, however, and many of the areas--the Caspian Sea, Venezuela, West Africa and South China Sea--that are being counted on to provide increased output involve substantial political or economic risk. Traditional suppliers in the Middle East are also increasingly unstable. Thus sharper demand-driven competition for resources, perhaps accompanied by a major disruption of oil supplies, is among the key uncertainties.
    So the big question is, how big are the undiscovered reserves in the four areas mentioned above?
    --
    Nothing for 6-digit uids?
  4. 2010 by OECD · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's interesting to look at the (nearer) "2010" one (done in 1996.) I was expecting a laugh, but it's not too bad. Tidbits that struck me:

    The "Social Security-Medicare" debate already reverberating throughout the developed world will be acute.
    We anticipate genetic engineering fueling a fourth agricultural revolution by the end of this timespan. As in the past, shortages will be man-made.
    To compete, businesses will continue to move beyond regional or national perspectives to optimize global trade.
    Potential adversaries will attempt to blunt our military superiority in other ways: improving their capabilities relative to their neighbors, and using unconventional and often asymmetric means--ranging from the increased use of terrorism to the possible use of weapons of mass destruction.
    The likely course at least through 2010 will be an enlarged NATO serving s the primary vehicle for launching and sustaining "coalitions of the willing."
    US-European strategic interests will be buffeted by several contentious issues: differences over -a policy toward Iran and Iraq (where political changes will occur in both countries by 2010); costs of underwriting a Middle East peace; divergent views on the future of Turkey's relations with Europe; and US positions on "fair vs. free trade," extraterritoriality, and the role of the World Trade Organization (WTO) in settling trade disputes.
    --
    One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
  5. UN Secretary General Private Diary Entry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    September 11, 2020

    It has been exactly nineteen years today since the view from the 38th floor changed with the destruction of the Twin Towers. I was remarking when the President of the United States phoned that more than the skyline has been altered since. Not only has a new structure been built, partially obscuring the devastation of 9/11, but the US has risen like a phoenix--albeit a beleaguered one--and it again seems to be the bedrock of the international order.

    I would say it started when Europe and America began to get together again. It turns out Venus and Mars cross each other's orbits from time to time. The 2010 terrorist attacks in Europe had a lot to do with it. They changed attitudes, and suddenly the Europeans had a better appreciation of catastrophic terrorism--a whole different kettle of fish from what they had known. Publics quickly became energized, particularly as the attacks were seen as totally unjustified. The seriousness of the attacks was such that Europe and America got beyond the name-calling and, in fact, Europeans began imploring America to get tough on terrorism.

    The closing of transatlantic ranks was prompted by more than this. One thing that became clear is that Europe was more unified than some of our American friends imagined. New Europe turned out to be not that much different from Old Europe, once it joined the EU club and began hanging out in Brussels. NATO went through some rough times but is now working better with the EU. There is grudging acceptance on both sides that NATO has the necessary military tools while the EU can bring to the table a capacity for nation-building.

    On the European side, a lot had to do with Turkish accession--something I never expected to see. With the prospect of Turkey coming in, the Europeans realized that their border was now squarely in the Middle East and that meant they had to be more prepared to deal with all the problems of terrorism, fundamentalism, youth bulges, etc.

    Coming together as they did, Europe helped to persuade the US that something had to be done to stop the spiraling violence in Palestine. For the Europeans, that had always been the root of the problem, but divisions and a lack of will always got in the way of any concerted action.

    Energy and climate change are also playing an increasing role in the US-European dynamics, but not the way one would have expected. For a while, the Europeans looked like they were trying to isolate the US and insist on Washington playing by EU rules. But that was never really going to happen, and European leaders did not factor in their own publics' increasing resentment of China's and other developing countries' flaunting of environmental standards. Kyoto was suddenly out and a new framework had to be thought up with the Americans inside.

    The US role changed even more dramatically in Asia. China was rising and, while not directly challenging the US, was certainly displacing it in the region, particularly economically. America's preoccupation with Iraq and terrorism looked set to diminish the US role even more. Japan stood close to the US on Iraq but was conflicted too because of its economic dependence on China. In South Korea, the younger generation blamed the US for the division and problems with the North. It seemed only a matter of time before the US would be pushed to the sidelines.

    Then a series of events occurred which changed the dynamic. Frightened by the continuing impasse in North Korea, rumors leaked of the Japanese seriously thinking about their own bomb. About this time China also suffered an economic relapse, which exacerbated the confrontational tone over Taiwan, also heightening worries in Japan and Southeast Asia. The US initially wanted to heighten its profile but found that many worried about a US-China conflict. Washington ended up scaling back its military presence in Korea and Japan. Most do not want the US to leave; even China, I think, secretly sees some virtue in having the US around inasmuch as it ma

  6. Re:Internal conflict is what I worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The only reason Clinton was able to balance the budget is because of the historic tech boom at the time and the lack of military spending.

    Military spanding is a tiny sliver in the overall budget. Even today, in the middle of a war, military spending is a lower percentage of the federal budget than when Jimmy Carter was President.

    Clinton was able to balance the budget because he *GASP* cut social programs. We have big deficits now. NOT because of the meager tax cuts, and NOT because of the war. It is because Bush has gone apeshit with welfare spending.

    Visit cbo.gov and see for yourself.

  7. Re:US and Rome by paretooptimum · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Reminds me of a quote in Gibbons Decline and Fall of Rome (a light three volume read)

    "The decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the cause of the destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident and removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of the ruin is simple and obvious: and instead of inquiring why the Roman Empire was destroyed we should rather be surprised that it has subsisted for so long."

  8. They forgot the 2nd Middle Ages, and immigration. by master_p · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First of all, the first world's population will be radically altered from the vast number of people emigrating from 3rd world countries to 1st world countries. This is has prons and cons: it will definitely give a boost to local economies, due to more young people working, but it will also bring havoc to social peace.

    Secondly, we are plunging with great speed into a 2nd age of darkness. More and more, people don't use their critical thinking and logic and they are based on emotion, faith and mysticism. Although technology has done quantum leaps in the last century, the average person (average, when including 3rd world countries, of course) has no clue about mainstream science and attributes everything to God (just like with the recent tsunami being viewed as a punishment from God).

    The standard of education goes down like a rock falling from a cliff, and there are gonna be millions of people with diplomas and degrees which are essentially uneducated into what makes society tick.

    The computer business will reach a point where everything halts. Processing power would be so great, that upgrading will be meaningless. Of course that is after computers can do realtime raytracing and voice synthesis.

    We are never gonna go to Mars.

    There is a possibility of a 3rd World War, much more devastating than the first two, especially if politicians keep ignoring the facts that the west's wars are viewed as religious wars by East.

  9. Re:Missing scenario by killbill! · · Score: 3, Interesting

    To be honest, as long as the renminbi remains pegged to the dollar, as long as the Japanese Central Bank is buying dollars to slow the rise of the yen vs the renminbi, and as long as European companies are forced to cut into their margins to remain competitive vs the Japanese*, then American consumers won't see too big of an increase.

    Oh wait, they are already. OIL PRICES.

    Remember, the 1973 oil shock wasn't only in retaliation to Western support for Israel in the Kippur War, but also to make up for the loss of purchasing power since the mid 60's.
    I am convinced the recent rise in oil prices is linked to the depreciation of the dollar, and not only to Chinese growth increasing demand faster than reserves are discovered, or insecurity in Russia or the Middle East.

    If I remember correctly, since Nov. 2000 the euro's appreciation has more or less matched oil's ($.85 to $1.35, vs $30 to $50 : +60% in both cases).
    When arab investors became persona non grata in America after 9/11, petrodollars started getting increasingly invested in Europe (or in China), which fuels the euro's rise over the dollar. The resulting fall of the dollar makes the Arabs painfully aware of the loss of purchasing power they're getting (since they're getting fewer euros per barrel), so they have to improve their prices.
    Oh yeah, and they convert their dollars into euros event faster.

    So far, American consumers have been protected from the effects of the dollar's depreciation by external factors. However, if China has to increase its prices because of the increase in oil prices, if the Federal Reserve has to increase interest rates, if Japan stops being able to buy those T-bills, or if OPEC suddenly starts demanding payment in euros, American households will feel the heat. Or even be wiped out.

    * I'm working at a small German sports car manufacturer. We're selling our entry-level model at a loss in the US because we're supposed to be 20% more expensive than a Nissan 350 Z, but we cannot afford to be twice as expensive...

  10. Re:Plane travel by Duhavid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There was a news article a while ago about how the searchers at the terminals were touching people in places they did not feel comfortable with.

    One woman complained about a searcher pressing her hand between her breasts.

    The GP was taking the issue a bit farther out, but ( IHMO not too far out ). Kids are ( sometimes ) taught to obey, and might not feel at liberty to say "I dont want this". This is ( sometimes ) how child abuse happens ( as I understand it ), so I think the issue reasonable.

    ( Yes, the presumption is that your child would be going with you, not an unreasonable presumption ).

    --
    emt 377 emt 4
  11. Re:mmmmkay.... by killbill! · · Score: 2, Interesting

    IRAs are a scam.

    We're hearing that goold old SS is failing because of demographics - ie that employed people will be unable to pay for pensioners because there too many pensioners for too few employed people.

    The sad truth, however, is that the very same reason that is killing SS, will kill stock markets. We often hear the myth that stock markets outperform other investments on the long term.
    The truth is, stock markets can only rise if there are more people willing to buy, than people willing to sell, i.e. if there are more 40-year-olds than 65-year-olds.

    Think about it: Stock markets rise because demand is growing faster than offer.
    But who is usually buying stock? People saving up for their retirement. So they buy stocks (or shares in mutual funds, which then buy stocks).
    What is usually selling stock? Retired people - that are selling to finance their retirement.

    In other words, if the ratio of retired people to employed people increases, offer grows faster than demand. Markets tank.

    And this, ladies and gentlement, is the reason the market will be bearish for at least two decades once boomers hit 65 (that is in merely 5 years).

    Remember the boom years of the 50's and 60's, during which stock markets notably underperformed?
    No wonder demand was weak, if there were fewer 40-year-olds than usual, since so many had died 20 years ago during WW2.
    The stock market only got real big under Reagan. Surprise, this is exactly when the first boomers reached 40 year olds, whilst there were very few sellers (WW2 generation): demand was much stronger than offer. Markets rose, and kept rising until today.
    However in 5 years, there will be more people wanting to sell than people willing to buy. In other words, IRAs are a disaster waiting to happen.

    The only way out is if the Chinese come in and do a massive buy out, 80's Japan style.

  12. 60K/year = middle income prole by MacDork · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Clinton did so only by further increasing the disproportionate tax burden of "the wealthy".

    Really? You coulda fooled me.

  13. Re:Missing scenario by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Interesting, but have you considered the theory of "Peak Oil"?

    Consider some of this:

    • This theory was given by an oil industry expert in the 1950's. It has been shown to be reliable, as it predicted that the peak of US oil production would be in the early 1970's, which it was (around 1972-73). It is called the Hubbert Peak. Graphs of world oil production are fairly consistent with the curve presented by the theory.
    • There are several areas with small to medium sized deposits of oil in existence that are being pursued, but...
    • ...For the first time in recent history (100 years), there have been no new large fields discovered.
    • Like the concept of methane (Natural Gas) powered cars? Guess where the vast majority of natural gas comes from? Oil wells.
    • Guess how much Methane is available for consumption (based on current extraction rates)? Only enough to cover a fraction of our energy needs that are being met with oil-based energy.
    • Hydrogen cars are nifty, but the number one way to produce economical hydrogen gas today is through - you guessed it - the chemical conversion of methane gas. Guess how long that will work without some form of renewable energy?
    • We've dammed about every major river that we can already without causing severe ecological damage to the surrounding areas. Hydropower is significant, but it's not enough.
    • We highly supplement our electrical needs with oil-derived power (natural gas turbines, gas generators, etc.) Think more than 10% and less than 30%.
    • California's brownouts were NOT an issue with capacity in the west. The blackout we had in the East WAS - a single station gave out, and the overload on the existing system "tripped" the remaining stations one by one, like dominoes.
    • The majority of your foodstuffs, heating, cooling, hot water, pumped potable (fresh) water, and transporation needs are (usually) tied to electricity, methane, gasoline, or other oil products or by-products. God help someplace like New York or L.A. when the shit REALLY hits the fans...the LA Riots over Rodney King will seem like a stroll in the park when MILLIONS of people decide that they can't live in the city anymore...
    • ...which makes all of those recently enacted laws so much more useful. Specifically, the ones that are erroding our constitutional rights.

    I've heard counter-arguments that the theory is bunk and we have plenty, but so far, every piece of documentation I can get my hands on points the other way - that we are going to be in a world of hurt in about 5+ years or so, with nowhere to go but down. Think of the Great Depression of the 30's, but think of one that never ends. Oil prices and the activity with Euros you describe above are merely a reflection of that theory. Given that we are now over the $40/barrel threshold, I'm (anxiously) awaiting the crossover even in 2008, when combined OPEC production is projected to match the production from ALL OTHER NON-OPEC MEMBERS. After that point, it's all downhill; OPEC will effectively have the majority of reserves on the market, and whenever you have a de-facto "monopoly" of this kind, prices go up. Give that nearly all of our culture and economy is predicated on cheap, readily available energy (oil, gasoline, diesel, methane - which is a byproduct of oil production), I don't see things going well in 5+ years unless the public has a MASSIVE wake-up call, scales back consumption (just long enough to buy time), and starts taking a serious look at how we live. What's that? You like driving your car? Well, I can guess that it's not going to happen - people will continue until the price of oil is too prohibitive. By the time prices reach the point that most of the public notices, it's too late - we're on the downward slope of the production curve, and production expenses will continue to mount.

    The 1970's oil shock was nasty, and there are people here on Slashdot who weren't even born yet when it occured, so it's