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Point-and-klik Linux Software Installation?
bfree continues: This is not the only change in klik recently however, now applications are built into compressed image (cmg) files rather then stored as application directories. This means that you can store the application on any filesystem and move it around at will. Klik no longer totally depends on kde. Where previously klik could only be used with konqueror, now you can also use firefox and elinks, and where previously kdialog was required, now any of dialog|Xdialog|kdialog should work.
Klik now also supports more distributions fully. The officially supported list of distributions is now Knoppix (3.7), Kanotix (BHX), Linspire 5.0 and Simply Mepis (2004.04). Klik assumes that you will have installed at least the lowest version of any package which is present in all supported distributions and build the applications as such. If a package you want klik to install depends on a package in this base system it will not be included in the cmg so you must have it installed or add it to the cmg by hand afterwards. If you want to try using klik on another distribution, your results will primarily depend on whether or not your distribution has the packages the cmg depends on and assumes are present. So you will certainly fail to install kde applications on a distribution with no kde (as all the supported distributions have kde), but programs with simpler, or less common and therefore missing from some supported distributions, dependencies can work just fine.
One of the best ways to demonstrate the power of klik's techiniques is with the Christmas present from probono, an OpenOffice.org cmg for version 1.9.65. With this cmg (which runs on far more distributions then klik's supported list, especially as it uses Linux transparent iso compression rather then cramfs) you can download one 100M file to try out the preview release of Ooo, no need to upgrade any parts of your system and if the system has been setup by root to use cmg files there is also no need to even be root. I think this demonstrates the very best feature of bundled applications, you can try a potentially reckless preview release of software without having to upgrade your system.
Is it me or do the k-folks have a totally kde-centric world-view? I mean who but them would develop a software installation system that has kde as a dependency and ensure that way that no distribution that doesn't want to lose all non-kde users (not only gnome, but users of all other window-managers and users that don't need X on their machine) can use their system?
Linux is not Windows
Actually, as an actual Gentoo user, it sounds pretty good. It'd be nice to have a variety of gentoo compatable binaries on the net, and easily installeable/removeable ones at that.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
I'm using Firefox on Slackware and I hate Bill Gates as much as everyone here, but we know what will happen if we mimic Microsoft's behaviour of detecting and preventing based on some ID.
Windows has had this for ages,
....
we call them EXEs.
Seriously though, just being able to click on a link, save to a directory, and run a program, is such a nice thing. I don't care how it is bundled up, just make the darn thing run!
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From that sentence One of the best ways to demonstrate the power of klik's techiniques is with the Christmas present from probono, an OpenOffice.org cmg for version 1.9.65..
OpenOffice is one of those huge projects which come in preinstalled preconfigured and self sufficient package which have to be decompressed in one directory.
So having a "klik" package is not a proof of technical achivement, as it would be trivial to have a, say, loki setup or even a script which untar the package and put the missing entry in PATH.
No, give me a klik package of some kde or gnome program wich installs and works with every distro, aka fit nicely in every distro and rely on dynamic and present librairies. THAT would be a true demonstration.
If Linix is ever going to be a real force on the desktop in general, and not just the corporate desktop, it needs to do some serious work on how programs are installed.
I personally disagree with your above assessment -- the Mac OS X style of program installation and packaging is exactly what Linux should be striving for. In this configuration, a single application package can contain executable forks for multiple operating systems/distributions in a single package, which can be stored in a disk image and "installed" merely by dragging and dropping it into its target directory. Everything that is part of the program is then part of the package itself -- there is no need for an application to pollute the rest of the system by dropping files all over the place. Deletion is as simple as deleting the program icon/directory, and presto -- it's gone.
Indeed, I can see such a system actually working better on Linux than it does on OS X due to the ability for the package to contain executables for multiple OS's. A single package could contain executable code for Linux on x86, x86-64, PPC, S390, Alpha, MIPS, and all other Linux architectures (along with Mac OS X if one wanted to). Have a buddy running a different architecture you want to share an application with? Just copy it to their system as-is: the loader selects the correct executable and libraries within the package to use, with all the architectures sharing common application resources.
Installing applications on Linux is one of the major hurdles for Linux to 100% pass the "Mom test" here (my mothers system is running Fedora Core 3, because it's vastly easier for me to manage and maintain for her remotely than Windows ever could be, and I don't have to worry about her accidentially deleting system files or otherwise munging up the system somehow, besides being stable and damn good looking!). Mom recently wanted me to find and install a bunch of card games and little arcade games for her, and besides having a hard time finding many such games that suit her tastes on Linux (she doesn't want online multi-player, and doesn't need 800 different solitaire games), the ones I was able to find were a PITA to install (as most of them were source-only, build-it-youself, and then go in and manually create the necessary data files to add them to the Gnome menu, the latter of which I continue to believe there is no excuse for anyone to have to do).
On top of this, IMO the Open Source community needs more package maintainers, especially for smaller projects. It's hard enough for a moderately popular project to keep up with development, user requests, bug reports, end-user support, web site maintanence, and documentation as it is, nevermind trying to ensure your project gets packaged for the myriad of different packaging formats out there (and not just for Linux either if your project is portable to other OS's).
Okay, rant mode off. I neeeded to get tthat off my chest :). Linux program install has a long way to go before it's going to be friendly enough for the average non-sys-admin user.
Yaz.
A fellow Gentoo user, I don't see this fitting into the Gentoo paradigm. Gentoo, from its very beginning, is the opposite of packaged binary software. The initial geek factor with Gentoo was that you could throw in all the wacky compiler optimizations you wanted and build your Linux system from scratch -- very attractive to a small percentage of humans.
/opt -- an obvious attempt at some modicum of castigation. I suspect that there will be little impetus at the developer level to move Gentoo in the direction of more precompiled binary applications and away from the "compile everything from source with your own optimizations" model.
What I'm seeing now is that Portage has a couple really cool advantages over other packaging systems, and with those features come a horde of less wacky enthusiasts. Those features are, namely, ease of removal and upgrade and dependancy bliss. Nothing like issuing an "emerge world" and coming back 10 hours later with no hitches.
Even the binary packages you can install through the portage tree are relegated to
It just seems to break the foundational philosophy of the distribution to me.
-Ant Slayer-
Dependencies are dependencies - they exist to say "I NEED these things to even work at all." If you find some package that lists something as a dependency but you have no problems using the package without it, you've just found a bug.
Yes. Not only that, when installing, I am sure dependancy needs to be met and install scripts need to be run.
You can break your system hard.
Post inst script of rm -rf / will wipe yor system. So I really need some more explanation before I Klik from my Debian PC.
Osamu
Looking at the documentation, I'd say this is a step in the right direction for Linux to be appropriate for home users. For the typical user, it is important that they can find an "application link" somewhere on the internet and just click it to use it. Package management systems like apt/urpm/emerge work well and are still necessary for Linux, but klik-style installation will enable average users to be comfortable using software that hasn't already been installed by someone else. As a result, they will probably feel a lot more "at ease and in control" during their Linux experience.
As a bonus, the linked application only runs with the user's privilege level. That means if it's a malicious app, it won't hose the whole system, and security/recovery becomes much easier.
It almost makes me want to try out desktop Linux again (using OS X right now).
Yeah, but you have to use the secret beta text-mode only klik client (codenamed "xterm"). Open xterm and type "emerge " (the trailing space is important!) Open the klik! web site and highlight the name of the app you want to install with your mouse pointer. Then middle-klik on xterm, and press enter. Presto!
0 1 - just my two bits
I think this is a step backwards. Linux installations are already "one click", with an excellent user interface: you go to the software directory ("package manager"), select what you want to have installed, and it just happens. That works in most modern distributions. After you have selected what you want installed, it gets maintained and updated automatically.
Klik seems to take us back to the cumbersome systems that Windows and Macintosh use, where you have to download applications and worry about when they are going to get upgraded and whether the different pieces that are installed are going to be compatible. That is not progress.
Please let's not dumb down the Linux package system to the level of Windows or Macintosh: that would be bad for all users, expert and novice alike.