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Governments Take Sides In Blackberry Patent Suit

Posted by timothy on from the please-don't-call-it-a-free-market dept.

geekboy_x writes "The recent court decision giving NTP a big chunk of Research In Motion's Blackberry profits has attracted an unusal participant - the government of Canada. The original ruling, where RIM was judged to have violated 5 of NTP's patents, has now been stayed pending appeal, and the Canadian government has filed a motion in the U.S. court to request a full re-hearing. At stake is not only money, but the rights to sell and service any Blackberry-like product."

19 of 311 comments (clear)

  1. Canadian Government... by Caydel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Obviously the Canadian government has an interest in this, as it is one of the leading canadian technologies; however, this seems to be quite a large step for them. They usually seem to pussyfoot around such issues, especially when dealing with the US...

    1. Re:Canadian Government... by rborek · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The issue isn't with RIM per se, but the fact that the US courts are trying to apply US patent laws to systems physically located in Canada - which should fall under Canadian patent law. If the US courts uphold this, it will present a huge barrier to Canadian (or for that matter, any other countries) companies entering the US in any way (including sales and support to US companies from Canada), as a US company that holds a patent will be able to sue the Canadian company for using their patent in Canada to supply technology, services, etc. to US entities.

    2. Re:Canadian Government... by mzwaterski · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I don't see how you could have this fall any other way. Lets assume for the sake of discussion that NTP does own these patents and that the Blackberry does infringe them. Why should a company from Canada be able to come to the US and start selling a product that is infringing a US patent. The minute their products crossed the border, they became subject to US laws. Of course, they are free to make and sell what they want in Canada, and this lawsuit does not interfere with that. In fact, as the article points out "In August 2003, a U.S. court awarded NTP $53.7 million in damages and an 8.6 per cent royalty on all the revenue from U.S. BlackBerry sales." I.E. none of the sales in Canada are at issue.

      I guess I don't see how this could fall any other way. Think about what would happen if international companies were allowed to make an infringing product then ship it across the border and start selling it. Why should I invent something if I could just move to Canada, wait for someone else to invent it and perfect it, then copy their idea and start selling it myself. Heck, while I'm at it I will even use their name and logo.

    3. Re:Canadian Government... by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, the Yankees are right spooked now about the removal of tarriffs (which is all but inevitable, though it will probably be at least a year). You see, while US government has allowed American sawmills to continue in their inefficient and outdated ways, the tarriffs basically culled all the weaker outfits in BC, leaving only the companies with the highest efficiency. Darwinian mechanics takes over now. If that tarriff is removed, those coddled American lumber companies are going to be deader than a doornail in a decade.

      This is why protectionism is ultimately detrimental to those industries that a government seeks to protect. Unfortunately the average voter in a lumber-producing region in the US is largely ignorant of this basic principle, and politicians and lumber company executives are quite happy to milk voter stupidity for short-term gain.

      The other side of this coin (as with Bush's protectionist steel policy towards the EU) is that the American consumer gets hit with higher prices on raw materials driving up commercial goods. Whether it's an automobile or a new house, it's all the poor joes at the manufacturing plants, distributors, sales outfits and the poor slob that's paying for the goods that get nailed. Of course, all these guys probably live in the wrong state, so that's okay.

      Don't worry American consumer, us Canucks will save you. When those tarriffs are lifted, those greedy short sighted goons in the Commerce Department and in the lumber companies are going to be run over by trucks bring BC 2x4s across the border.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  2. How close are Matrin and RIM? by spikexyz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I shook Paul Martin's (Prime Minster of Canada) hand outside the RIM headquaters in Waterloo this past summer during the election. I wonder how close of a relationship Mr. Martin has with RIM and how this played into the Canadian government's decision to get involved.

    1. Re:How close are Matrin and RIM? by kaladorn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think that's entirely wrongheaded. Take off your tinfoil hat for a minute. CBC had some good coverage of this issue last night.

      The issue here is that the US court is trying to apply an outrageous scope to their own IP law - well beyond their borders onto systems physically present and using technology developed in Canada. This violates a number of traditions in the legal area (perhaps even aggreements or laws, but I'm a bit vague her) that say essentially that if something resides in your country, your own IP law applies. The US judge has made a decision which extends US IP law into Canadian space.

      The Canadian government is thus getting involved as a matter of national sovereignty and to forestall a whole whack of these. And to protect Canadian business interests from this ridiculous decision - it would effectively open up a whack of Canadian businesses to suits under a vastly changed understanding of how IP law is supposed to work and it would infringe Canada's sovereignty to have its own laws that differ from those that operate within our southern neighbour.

      This is perfectly well a matter of Canadian government legal, political and economic interest. It has nothing to do with RIM particularly, they just happen to be the test case. This is about a US court that is letting itself exceed its domain and pass judgements with wide ranging ramifications that reach into other countries.

      I think the simple logic that the US should be applying here is this: If it would piss us off if someone did it, maybe we should think twice before we do it to someone else.

      The might makes right argument has been responsible for any number of horrors over the years. Last time I checked, the US is supposed to stand for liberalized trade, free enterprise, fairness, etc. This judgement is about trying to inflict the laws of nation A on nation B in contravention of the historical process and in an unfair manner.

      I'm not confident it will be struck down - IP laws which original protected and fostered innovation and artists now throttle them and quash innovation through prodigious if questionable litigations. The US court in question has been passing wide ranging decisions which seem to strengthen the IP laws rather than pruning them back to foster the innovation they were originally meant to foster. So it may well be that this (to my mind) ridiculous decision stands.

      But this, for once, is an example of the Canadian government standing up and doing something *where and when it should* though perhaps getting involved earlier might have been useful. Still, they may not have expected such a wide ranging ruling and the precedents it set, so perhaps that isn't even a fair criticism.

      --
      -- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
  3. Blackberry-like product by spiritraveller · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Um, how is the Blackberry different from any other PDA/mobile phone combination that accesses email? Pardon me, but I've never used one.

    1. Re:Blackberry-like product by youngerpants · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just beat me to the obvious point. Ever since mobile/ cell phones have had the abiolity to connect to POP3, I have had a "Blackberry-Like" product.

      Perhaps Nokia should get litigous on RIM?

    2. Re:Blackberry-like product by JWG · · Score: 5, Informative

      If I am not mistaken (and I frequently am) the patent at the centre of this is about how the Blackberry uses the cellphone network to access mail, etc. Although a Blackberry uses the cell phone system to check email constantly, it uses a different communication protocol than what a regular cell phone does, and accesses a different type of communication system from that point on. It is somewhere in between there where the patent at issue rests. Someone, somewhere, at some time dreamed this idea up in the States, got a patent for it (although they never actually made anything) and then formed a company whose sole purpose was litigate to generate revenue, meanwhile, in Canada at roughly a the same time, RIM developed this into a working idea first, then started patenting it.

    3. Re:Blackberry-like product by deadsquid · · Score: 4, Informative
      It's more about the proxy/relay services on the back end which allow the devices to synch up securely (I know, I know, don't berate me for the inclusion of that word) with corporate messaging systems (like Exchange) without the need for a TCP/IP stack on the device or relying on traditional protocols such as IMAP and/or POP.

      They also synch more than just email. Calendaring and contact info can by synchronized wirelessly using the BES (Blackberry Enterprise Server) software and Exchange. It's not just simple email, and the systems RIM uses to provide the services through carriers and corps is a little more involved than just mail access protocols.

      --
      Idiot, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant
  4. Re:l33t politian by doombob · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't politicians in the US and elsewhere have some kind of council or committee that can educate them on technology issues? I mean one that isn't run by the big business lobby. Our representative in Washington have the House Science Committee. Our friends over the Atlantic have a Science and Tech committee, etc. How are they ever going to learn about what they are ruling over?

  5. good by ashpool7 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I really don't care who is motivated by what in this case, but NTP is nothing but a holding company on some BS patents for stuff that already exists but "with RF" tacked on.

    If it means throwing out bogus patents, I'd like to see a good explanation if anybody thinks that's a bad idea.

  6. Patent holding business by mszeto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I find the 'patent holding company' to be very counterproductive. Patents should be owned by companies creating products, like they were originally intended. Companies like NTP (correct me if i'm wrong) are made solely to find other companies to sue due to infringement. The company doesn't actually DO anything other than sue other companies right?

    I'm glad Canada is stepping and saying "this sucks." Though I'm a diehard palm user, it would be a shame to see a company lose a significant chunk of their profits to a bullshit company like NTP.

  7. Re:Gods by GoofyBoy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >and pride of Canadian citizens is difficult to overstate.

    1. This happens to any local economy, not just RIM/Waterloo. For example; Hamilton/Stelco, GM+Ford/Detroit, Big Government/Washington DC, Inco(?)/Sudbury.

    2. The "pride of Canadian citizens" are not wrapped up in this. Do you have pride in what happens to B.C. softwood lumber?

    --
    The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
  8. live by the sword, die by the sword by Doktor+Memory · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This would be the same Research In Motion that tried to gouge Palm and HandSpring for patent licensing fees on the idea of a PDA with a keyboard, right?

    Imagine my total lack of sympathy.

    --

    News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.

  9. Does this argument wipe out all network patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "RIM argued that because parts of the alleged infringement occurred on its relay and routing system that is based in Canada, U.S. patent law should not apply."

    Does this mean anyone who runs on a foreign server is exempt from the patents of other contries? How could any netowrk related patents be enforced? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

  10. Re:Gods by drunkennewfiemidget · · Score: 3, Informative

    I just moved from Waterloo in the last few months, and I was raised there most of my life. My ex-gf works there, and she's still a good friend. You couldn't be further from the truth. (I sincerely hope you have tongue in cheek on this one.)

    #1: Population of Waterloo in the last few years has grown. It exceeds 100,000.

    #2: There are no pipes ensuring there's no snow on the roads RIM's offices are on. I've driven to and from there dropping my ex-gf off hundreds of times. Those roads get mighty bad just like the rest of them.

    #3: The big celebration in October is called Oktoberfest, and has been a part of K-W since probably before you were born. And it's not a holiday, you get no time off for it.

    #4: RIM employees have their taxis paid for by RIM before and after company events so that they don't drink and drive, NOT the city.

    Yes, RIM is a bit of an institution on Waterloo now, much like the Toyota plant in Cambridge. But lets not go overboard.

    And for what it's worth, I still think the 2 guys that started RIM are pompous assholes.

  11. Blackberry by spyd4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I work for Research In Motion, and this whole lawsuit is a joke, this NTP company is a pathetic corporation that just hold patents trying to land big settlements.. they should just go f^&k off and die.

  12. Re:get to the shelter! by Doctor+Crumb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That war already happened. In 1812. Canada won.