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American Airlines Information Gathering
matt-fu writes "Cory Doctorow posted a story on boingboing.net this morning describing a recent hassle while flying American Airlines. It seems that since he was traveling from the UK to the US with a Canadian passport, he was actually asked to give out the names and addresses of everyone he would be staying with in the US! He has written an open letter to AA in response. Has anyone else had something like this happen to them?"
It's NONE of their business. That's the point. They sold me a ticket, that's enough. What I am doing once I arrive in the US is absolutely not the concern or business of the airline.
Why on earth should I have to tell the airline anything at all about what I do for a living or where I'm staying? it's none of their business.
I have relatives in Las Vegas, so I go there quite often, neither for business nor for vacation.
So one day I'm at the Budget Car Rental desk, and the lady at the counter starts asking me questions, like "who are you staying with?" She wanted adressess and phone numbers, etc.
Now, I was so taken aback by all of this, that I confronted her, trying to understand what the point of the questioning was -- because it seemed to me that my credit card, insurance, drivers license, and the fact that I have very frequently made this same rental, weren't sufficient to get me past the counter.
She simply asserted that "the information was necessary before she could rent me a car." "Very well", I said, "you will not be renting me a car today. Please cancel my reservation."
I then went to the National shuttle, showed my National Emerald Card to the shuttle driver, went to the lot, picked out a car, and the shuttle driver even put my bags in the trunk for me. I had to show my card and my license at the doghouse gate, and that was that. The rate turned out to be cheaper than Budget would have been anyway.
Needless to say, I don't bother with Budget anymore.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
It seems that some here are completely missing the point.
The author, Cory Doctorow, was directed to an AA 'security counter' before checking in at the AA counter in Gatwick airport, not on arrival in the U.S., was interogated by an AA security officer and was asked to provide personal information on A BLANK PIECE OF PAPER. If I was Cory I would have been as upset as he was and I believe he asked the security officer some reasonable questions. The entire process was bizarre to my thinking.
Many have pointed out that you are asked for an address in your destination country, but by an INS offical not an airline employee, on an official customs form and certainly not before you board your flight. The only country that I know of that has customs pre-clearance to the U.S. is Canada, where the customs and immigration process is handled in Canada by American INS agents before you board your plane to the U.S. Upon arrival, you step off the plane and into the airport, no customs.
EFF founder John Gilmore has been fighting these so-called rules for some time now. Check out Gilmore vs Ashcroft regarding these rules.
Wired magazing wrote:
Our consituttion provides for redress of grieveances against the government. But how can you address something when you aren't even allowed to know it's number, title, or content?-
So it's a US thing? Please explain, then, why I had to fill out a form saying where I would be staying when I flew into London from the US?
Yes other countries require this information, I had to provide it when I went to Japan a few years ago as well. People are missing a couple of key differences though:- Countries that require this have a form that you fill this information out on. This gentleman was handed a blank sheet of paper. This alone should set off alarm bells.
- This "requirement" suddenly dissapeared when they found out he was a platinum club member. This either suggests that they believe no terrorist would bother becoming a platinum club member or they just harass people who aren't.
I suspect if he'd been given a form to fill this info out on the whole thing wouldn't have bothered him, or not nearly as much. I'd be rather suspicious of being told to write this info down on a blank sheet of paper. How do I know the security guard just doesn't like me and is going to go hunt down my friends to kill them? Silly thought? Maybe, but then again I truly would have no way of knowing if that was the case or not, and their seemed to be no official form to back up his claim that it was required.When I fly to Europe, they look at my passport for about 5 seconds (literally), and wave "hi" as I enter. Makes me want to stay. When I come home to NYC, I get literally hours-long lines past a few officials, with the majority of windows empty. Then I get hassled with all kinds of BS when I show my passport with my NYC address. Makes me want to stay - in Europe.
Meanwhile, small planes buzz the Statue of Liberty without even being warned away, I know of all kinds of people who accidentally carry potentially lethal weapons (hatpins, mace, etc) through "security", and no one has attacked the US. This whole "security" culture is a total sham, costing billions and our liberty to prop up corporations and the government with unchecked power. Goddamn bin Laden and his Republican soulmates, and the pussy Democrats who help them get away with it.
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make install -not war
Alas, the summary left out the important point. This was not a customs or INS form. He was not asked to do this by INS agents. This was at the American Airlines security counter, on a BLANK piece of paper, administered by an American Airlines rent-a-cop. This is very different.
Normally, you provide your details to the INS or Customs. He was asked to provide them to AA.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
I went to Romania, not exactly the pinacle or bastion of freedom and democracy, and on entry was asked simply where I was going, why and for how long I was staying. Nothing else. This country was communist in 1989, and travel restrictions seem less severe that the USA? Maybe this is cause for Americans to pause for some deep reflection on what they were fighting for, and what they really won, at the end of the cold war.
3000 died. That is true... it only took 3000 to lose our freedom in this country. Give it a second thought. After 3000 dead everyone who enters our nation is treated as a criminal. Now remember the hundreds of thousands who died to bring you that freedom. DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR FREEDOM SO EASILY. Hundreds of Thousands of Americans died to bring Freedom back to Europe. That was not even our own freedom. In the Revolutionary war 10s of thousands died to Create your freedom. Stop being Scared of life and start living it. An Oppressive government is no way to run a country. Honor our soldiers and honor our forefathers by asserting your rights to privacy, freedom of speech, freedom of worship and freedom to congregate. This is what makes America great. Read your history books and learn. No one is out to get you, though its hard to tell with the Alert set to "Orange" today.... hmmmmmm how do they come up with that anyway? Does that mean I should keep my gas mask in my car, just in case????
-One More Concerned American.
"Platinum" isn't a club, it's a level of the frequent flyer program.
To reach Platinum you have to have flown 50,000 miles in the previous ( or current ) year. Unless you have used cash for all these flights they already have LOTS of information on you, where you go, how long you stay. If you use a credit card they know where your bills go, maybe even where the tickets are sent.
It's very reasonable that they wouldn't ask you as many questions if they already knew most of the answers. For the majority of Platinum level flyers they already know lots about you.
This doesn't mean it's resonable to ask all the questions they do from everyone else, just that it makes sense they'd back off for platinum card holders.
Good point, not to say "me too" on this. Would very much like to visit the US, but there are two factors that I can't possible take risk of:
-possible apprehension on little or no grounds, suspicion being enough
-possibly followed by lifelong interment and/or torture without court orders, attorney, notification of relatives and embassies,
in short: I'm not taking any risks of sudden and permanent "disappearing". No matter how big this risk may be for non-Arab-looking people, I won't take chances. I feel it is a shame for American ideals and values and I'm sure I couldn't hold back my opinion while in country, what places me at a higher risk than average.
I just wonder how military personell, sworn in on bible and constitution can be such a disgrace for their corps, their uniform and their country to torture anybody and follow orders to put them into jail forever without a court hearing. No matter how they present it, it is disgusting. That doesn't mean all terror suspects should be freed, terrorists should roam freely or whatever - but there absolutely needs to be a distinction between the Mob and the government. Not needing warrants, judges and courts to indefinetly put someone to jail makes this moot.
In the face of the camps at Guantanamo Bay, every respect fades, for the United States as a whole and the United States military in particular. Every soldier that stays on duty in Guantanamo Bay betrays his uniform and anything that it stands for, including the constitution and the most basic human dignity.
As long as there are officers on duty in the United States of America, that are able and willing to follow immoral and unconstitutional orders, I will refrain from coming closer than several thousand miles of US borders, neither on transit nor on business obligation.
You're totally naive - of course you don't live in NYC. Where we voted 3:1 to get rid of that clown Bush who's making us even less safe every day. Why start with "after 9/11"? How about stopping bin Laden when they were warned? It couldn't have anything to do with Saudi Arabia, and bin Laden's brother, Bush's corporate sponsor? Or that Enron pipeline across Afghanistan? Or the unprecedented power and denial Bush has won in the wake of the attacks? No, that's all coincidence. New Yorkers are a city of scaredy cats. Thanks for looking out for us.
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make install -not war
My most recent experience:
Last August I, my girlfriend, and two other (male) friends went on holiday to Mexico. We booked it in June, to travel in August.
The flight was from London to Cancun, changing in Houston - with the Houston->Cancun flight leaving 1hr 40 minutes after we landed.
One of the co-travellers has a Malaysian passport, (although he had "indefinite leave to remain" in the UK, and is now a full British Citizen) so he had to apply for a tourist visa to enter the US. As he's a male aged between 16 and 45, aswell as the standard DS-156 visa application form, he also had to fill in the dreaded DS-157 form.
On that form, he had to provide:
He applied for his visa in June, to travel at the end of August. The visa was eventually approved - it arrived in October.
Net result: he lost 2000 UK pounds (that's $3,733 US) on a holiday that never happened, as buried deep within Expedia's small print was a clause that prevented refunds or claims on travel insurance in case of visa problems.
So despite now having a visa which allows him to visit the US any time in the next ten years, he's never going to use it. He never wants to go to the US ever again, and now that the rest of us (British citizens from birth) have to have fingerprints and digital photos taken, neither do we.
http://instantbadger.blogspot.com
In all (civilized) legal systems I know, when the authorities detain someone, they either have to get a judge to OK the detention within typically 48 or 72 hours, or let the person go free. This is considered one of the fundamental principles all civlized legal systems are based on, right beside the whole "innocent until proven guilty thing". You might argue the detainees in Guantanamo are not suspects, but prisoners of war - in that case, the U.S. would have to treat them as such, which it does not (read the Geneva convention about proper treatment of prisoners, it's available online). Now, you could argue (and I'ld tend to agree with you) that the detainees we are talking about do not qualify as prisoners of war, but as "illegal combatants" - but you still have to *prove* that they are illegal combatants, which means that until proven guilty, they detainees are only *suspected* illegal combatants.
(Reasonable) people around the world are not complaining that the U.S. is detaining people that are possibly very dangerous and despicable terrorists; they are complaining that the U.S. reserves the right to deny any foreign national the same right to due process that the U.S. demands for it's citizens in those same countries. While this would be bad enough coming from any country, it's even worse coming from the self-proclaimed leader of the Free World.
I am *much* more afraid of a government that can detain me indefinately, without giving me any way to defend myself, than I am of the possibility of being killed by some Islamist nutjob.