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American Airlines Information Gathering
matt-fu writes "Cory Doctorow posted a story on boingboing.net this morning describing a recent hassle while flying American Airlines. It seems that since he was traveling from the UK to the US with a Canadian passport, he was actually asked to give out the names and addresses of everyone he would be staying with in the US! He has written an open letter to AA in response. Has anyone else had something like this happen to them?"
Trying being a diabetic with an insulin pump. The security people aren't big fans of people with tubes coming out of them strapped to little computers.
This is probably an automated check on anyone with a 3rd country passport.
They need to followup with the families to make sure none of them get mad cow disease.
Yeah, something like this happened to me last time I was flying to Nigeria. They made me stay in the country, and I never did get that money I was supposed to get from Prince Nanawobob Jones...
Is why myself and a lot of people in Europe are currently very reluctant to go to the US, be it for business or leisure, even with the favourable exchange rate...
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
I went with my friend to pick up his german friend who was coming in from Germany and she didn't have his or anyone else's address in America. The custom's agent was apparently pissed and had to come out to find my friend to get an American address. This was all very weird to us and we had to wait for like 2 hours for her. So, I believe this is a US customs issue, not just AA.
Yes its standard for all non-US citizens coming into the US, even on a short vacation or business trip. It was that way even before 9/11 too.
I've flown to the US (from the UK) with several different airlines, and I have to say that American Airlines gave me far more hassle than the others. My favourite bit was when I was travelling with a friend, and they separated us when we checked in to ask us questions like how long we'd known each other, how we met, etc. What did they think I was likely to say? "Well, we met at a terrorists' convention in 1998..."?
I signed my parents up with passport, because I was afraid they would not be able to fly without one. Turns out I was wrong.
I guess Micro$oft does not run all of the world.
And if my parents and the banks like M$ maybe it is only 1% evil.
System V rules the world!
Peace.
I mean, if I fly to the US intending to wander round and find a hotel that looks nice to stay in, but don't know ahead of time where i will, in fact be staying, will I get detained at the airport?
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
I find that very hard to believe. I'm a Canadian and travel to the U.S. several times per year. It has never happened to me, and I've never heard of it happening to anyone that I know.
I do, however, have a weirder story. A friend of mine (also a Canadian citizen) attended a Muslim wedding in Canada. On his return to his residence in the USA, the border guard asked him about the Muslim wedding that he attended! My friend had not disclosed that information, but the border people new about it and questioned him on it.
Either I've been smoking too much crack or my memory is shot, because I'm pretty sure I've been required to do that every single time I've flown to America (to visit family, first time was in 1999). I have a Danish passport and usually fly via Iceland, with Icelandair, but have also flown via the UK.
There's the usual "I will not commit terrorist acts" but also a section where you list who you will be staying with.
In 2002, I didn't have my cousin's then NY address handy, so I made one up. Good thing they didn't check up on it.
Funny story: On one trip, I had a present with me for a wedding, and had to take a national connecting flight from Boston to Baltimore. They had these things where they check for various trace chemicals that would indicate explosives. It of course went off five times on my suitcase, so the guy had it opened and went through it, item by item.
Finally he got to the present, a bottle of Gammel Dansk (a bitter alcohol), which was wrapped. He asked me what was in it, I told him. He then asked me if I had spent time near or on a farm previous to my flight, all the questions that would explain why I had trace chemicals on my luggage, but there was no apparent reason. He eventually let me go, when I started commentingthat I had to catch the connecting flight.
During the carry-on check, I realized I had a box-cutter in my pencil-case. There were also a couple of blades that were just floating around in there along with the pencils & pens. As the guy was rummaging through literally everything, including the pencil-case, I gotta admit I got a bit nervous that he would cut himself. He didn't find it, though. So much for thoroughness, heh.
My aunt was less lucky. She had her knitting pins confiscated and they almost ruined the cake she was bringing for the wedding.
It's NONE of their business. That's the point. They sold me a ticket, that's enough. What I am doing once I arrive in the US is absolutely not the concern or business of the airline.
Why on earth should I have to tell the airline anything at all about what I do for a living or where I'm staying? it's none of their business.
This probable isn't american airlines fault, but more due to government regulation.
Did you RTFA? The person in question was never asked those questions when flying on USAir, and when American Airlines discovered he was an AAdvantage Platinum member, they immediately changed their tune and told him they no longer needed to ask those questions.
If it's a government regulation, then why didn't he have to comply with it when he flew USAir? Why didn't he have to comply with it because he had Platinum status in American's frequent flyer program?
Oh, and when an airline loses your luggage, you generally have a good idea they've done that before you leave the baggage claim at your destination airport. You have to file a claim for your missing bag (description, etc.) and they collect contact information at that time. There's no need to collect that up front.
I have relatives in Las Vegas, so I go there quite often, neither for business nor for vacation.
So one day I'm at the Budget Car Rental desk, and the lady at the counter starts asking me questions, like "who are you staying with?" She wanted adressess and phone numbers, etc.
Now, I was so taken aback by all of this, that I confronted her, trying to understand what the point of the questioning was -- because it seemed to me that my credit card, insurance, drivers license, and the fact that I have very frequently made this same rental, weren't sufficient to get me past the counter.
She simply asserted that "the information was necessary before she could rent me a car." "Very well", I said, "you will not be renting me a car today. Please cancel my reservation."
I then went to the National shuttle, showed my National Emerald Card to the shuttle driver, went to the lot, picked out a car, and the shuttle driver even put my bags in the trunk for me. I had to show my card and my license at the doghouse gate, and that was that. The rate turned out to be cheaper than Budget would have been anyway.
Needless to say, I don't bother with Budget anymore.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
It seems that some here are completely missing the point.
The author, Cory Doctorow, was directed to an AA 'security counter' before checking in at the AA counter in Gatwick airport, not on arrival in the U.S., was interogated by an AA security officer and was asked to provide personal information on A BLANK PIECE OF PAPER. If I was Cory I would have been as upset as he was and I believe he asked the security officer some reasonable questions. The entire process was bizarre to my thinking.
Many have pointed out that you are asked for an address in your destination country, but by an INS offical not an airline employee, on an official customs form and certainly not before you board your flight. The only country that I know of that has customs pre-clearance to the U.S. is Canada, where the customs and immigration process is handled in Canada by American INS agents before you board your plane to the U.S. Upon arrival, you step off the plane and into the airport, no customs.
EFF founder John Gilmore has been fighting these so-called rules for some time now. Check out Gilmore vs Ashcroft regarding these rules.
Wired magazing wrote:
Our consituttion provides for redress of grieveances against the government. But how can you address something when you aren't even allowed to know it's number, title, or content?I wish I could find the specific show, but this is documented somewhere in the vast vault of kpftarchive.org. A woman and animal rights activist I know fairly well was stopped in the Houston, Texas airport after returning from overseas with her parents. She was seperated from her parents by armed guards, held for hours, and had to wait for the local FBI / sheriff person to show up. Turns out this person has been attending demonstrations undercover for years. The key detail is that this woman, and everyone else in the Houston animal rights community, is strictly dedicated to non-violence and legal, peaceful, non-sidewalk blocking demonstrations. She's specifically taken on some powerful scum, such as Charles Hurwitz. The FBI agent vaguely threatened her, and mentioned details that according to the woman in question could only have been gained by listening to her private telephone calls. Then, the tactics changed, and the agent began to offer her college tuition or even cash for turning informant (not withstanding the fact that there is actually nothing for her to inform about). She declined. Finally, several hours later she was released. She had committed no crime, was not involved in the investigation of any crime, and was never given good reason as to why she had been held. It seems that just mere connection with a peaceful, unpopular cause is enough to be threatened. In fact, an agent (possibly the same one) once told me that 'you'd be surprised what you can do to someone without ever pressing charges' - a clear threat. She bravely went on the radio the next day to tell everyone what had happened. I imagine most people just keep quiet.
Difference is that this isn't the incoming country collecting the information at customs, but the AA people at the departure country.
Your destination country has the right to refuse you a visa if you don't give them the information they request, but they also probably have privacy laws saying that they won't be selling said information. He asked what AA's data-retention policy was and whose policy it was to collect this information (TSA or AA) and they couldn't answer him sufficiently.
His letter asks AA for the information he's entilted to under UK law: the company's data-retention policies on this information.
On another note, I've found that it's completely normal for airline agents to tell you that anything the company has told them to do is a federal policy, whether it actually is or not. For instance, bags can't be checked through from Love Field in Dallas to airports in non-adjacent states due to a local law meant to send out-of-state traffic through DFW, but if you ask the airline agents they'll adamantly claim it's FAA policy.
When I fly to Europe, they look at my passport for about 5 seconds (literally), and wave "hi" as I enter. Makes me want to stay. When I come home to NYC, I get literally hours-long lines past a few officials, with the majority of windows empty. Then I get hassled with all kinds of BS when I show my passport with my NYC address. Makes me want to stay - in Europe.
Meanwhile, small planes buzz the Statue of Liberty without even being warned away, I know of all kinds of people who accidentally carry potentially lethal weapons (hatpins, mace, etc) through "security", and no one has attacked the US. This whole "security" culture is a total sham, costing billions and our liberty to prop up corporations and the government with unchecked power. Goddamn bin Laden and his Republican soulmates, and the pussy Democrats who help them get away with it.
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Yeah, right.
Alas, the summary left out the important point. This was not a customs or INS form. He was not asked to do this by INS agents. This was at the American Airlines security counter, on a BLANK piece of paper, administered by an American Airlines rent-a-cop. This is very different.
Normally, you provide your details to the INS or Customs. He was asked to provide them to AA.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
Ah, diabetes and airlines after 9/11. Such fun! ;)
;)
I have two stories here.
The first one was when I was checking in for a flight. Diabetic needleheads in my bag (these are sealed thumb-sized packages that you fit onto the end of an insulin pen). The attendant asked, probably for the umpteenth hundredth time, the boilerplate question "Do you have any sharp metal objects, etc, etc?". My nonchalant answer was "yes". After getting a few hundred "no"'s in a row, followed by my calm response of "yes", the look on her face was priceless. After leaving her in a state of confusion for a few moments I explained to her that I was diabetic, what they were for, and gave her a doctors letter confirming it. She seemed strangely relieved.
The not-so-happy second story was on a domestic return trip back home to Adelaide (Australia). After having traveled to a different state, on the way back the jerkoff checking my stuff (which I politely and properly declared), obviously looking for a power trip decided to give me a hard time for having too many needleheads (I had three). Never mind I can't eat food without getting sick without insulin. Sometimes needleheads break and warp, especially when you are trying to jab yourself with a pen between two other passengers on a cramped airline seat. I had a letter from my GP explaining I was diabetic, a medic-alert bracelet, etc, anticipating the whole post-9/11 paranoia. And I wanted to get home. I'm hoping karma comes back and bites that jerk in the ass.
I can't imagine what it would be like with an insulin pump. I put off looking into one for a while because I made too many flights post-9/11 and didn't want someone trying to yank the thing...
I went to Romania, not exactly the pinacle or bastion of freedom and democracy, and on entry was asked simply where I was going, why and for how long I was staying. Nothing else. This country was communist in 1989, and travel restrictions seem less severe that the USA? Maybe this is cause for Americans to pause for some deep reflection on what they were fighting for, and what they really won, at the end of the cold war.
3000 died. That is true... it only took 3000 to lose our freedom in this country. Give it a second thought. After 3000 dead everyone who enters our nation is treated as a criminal. Now remember the hundreds of thousands who died to bring you that freedom. DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR FREEDOM SO EASILY. Hundreds of Thousands of Americans died to bring Freedom back to Europe. That was not even our own freedom. In the Revolutionary war 10s of thousands died to Create your freedom. Stop being Scared of life and start living it. An Oppressive government is no way to run a country. Honor our soldiers and honor our forefathers by asserting your rights to privacy, freedom of speech, freedom of worship and freedom to congregate. This is what makes America great. Read your history books and learn. No one is out to get you, though its hard to tell with the Alert set to "Orange" today.... hmmmmmm how do they come up with that anyway? Does that mean I should keep my gas mask in my car, just in case????
-One More Concerned American.
You're totally naive - of course you don't live in NYC. Where we voted 3:1 to get rid of that clown Bush who's making us even less safe every day. Why start with "after 9/11"? How about stopping bin Laden when they were warned? It couldn't have anything to do with Saudi Arabia, and bin Laden's brother, Bush's corporate sponsor? Or that Enron pipeline across Afghanistan? Or the unprecedented power and denial Bush has won in the wake of the attacks? No, that's all coincidence. New Yorkers are a city of scaredy cats. Thanks for looking out for us.
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make install -not war
you are treated like a king if you are Mexican [...] and the cops are not allowed to check if you are legal or not
Yes, in the US it's only royalty and illegal Mexican immgrants that are allowed police protection. [rolls eyes]
The poster might give you the impression that the state of California offers all sorts of special benefits that accrue to illegal aliens. As far as I know, that's not the case; it's just that many government programs help out all people rather than checking to see whether you're a citizen or not.
Personally, as a Cali taxpayer, I'm glad of that. Humanitarian considerations aside, society pays a heavy cost if illegal immigrants are afraid to report crime, or if their children are forced to be sick, malnourished, and ignorant. Whether we should let them come is one question, but as long as they are here to stay we might as well make sure they make it.
I'm a little late for this but it's an area I'm familiar with so I thought I'd contribute it.
The U.S. Customs Department is in the process of moving towards what they call "U.N. APIS" (Advanced Passenger Information System). Details can be found at here in the Word document US Passenger List; UN EDIFACT Message Set.
The U.S. APIS system which has been used for some time does not require destination address information. The U.N. format does. See the linked document pages 60-63 for more details. Eventually this will be required when flying any major airline coming into the U.S., not just American Airlines.
Two attacks. Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal building in Oklahoma City, remember? Fertilizer bomb.
Funny how no U.S. rightist militias were rounded up and sent to "processing" in Cuba for the rest of their lives, just-in-case and to keep-us-safe. No roundups of crew-cut guvmint haters. No searches of all pickup trucks and rental vans until the end of time. No permanent military surveillance of interstate rest stops, which is where McVeigh practically lived. No color coded "alerts". Could it be that they vote? That they're white? Could it be that all this "security" would have been as nonsensical then as it is now? Is it because Americans really, really think they are Christ's army in the war against a false god, or at least against dark people far away, and no torture, no suspension of the constitution is too much if we kill some more?
Sigh. Try finding the BBC Documentary "The Power of Nightmare". Lokitorrent has it at the moment. I've come to agree with the premise: there really was no such organization as "Al Qaeda", that it was the construction of a prosecutor that Bush used as a blueprint, that the attack was the last gasp of a desperate and failing jihadist movement, and that we have been taken to a near-dictatorship on nothing but the power to create a constant state of fear by extremely ruthless and self-deluded men who've methodically eliminated all contention of their assertions in the military, the intelligence community and the media. Even to question the simplest of their premises gets you branded a loon. We need to wake up. But I don't see how. Malignant egophrenia, aka "mad emperor's disease", has taken complete hold of the U.S. We've gone nuts, and we're taking everyone down with us.