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Does Microsoft Cause Lower Software Prices?

AngusSF writes "OK, slashdotters, , so is this FEE article Antitrust Benefits Consumers? It Just Ain't So! true?" AngusSF quotes from the article: "... as Stan Leibowitz and Steve Margolis have shown in their book, Winners, Losers and Microsoft, in virtually any market that Microsoft has entered (financial software, spreadsheets, etc.), the effect has been a dramatic reduction in prices and an expansion of output and innovation. Software products that do not compete with Microsoft's products fell in price by 12 percent from 1988 to 1995, but by 60 percent where there was competition from Microsoft.", and writes "I'd really like to see some on-line evidence of this. Has Microsoft competition in office suites really cut prices there?"

83 of 726 comments (clear)

  1. Must Be True by fembots · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ever since Microsoft entered the desktop OS market, Linux felt so threatened that it's been giving away free source codes!

    1. Re:Must Be True by savagedome · · Score: 2, Funny

      giving away free source codes

      Yeah. True. I download it from the Internets.

    2. Re:Must Be True by IdleTime · · Score: 2, Funny

      You mean the Enternets, right?

      Isn't that what the blue E means? Enternets?

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    3. Re:Must Be True by randallpowell · · Score: 2, Funny
      I thought Linux xealots never bathed, Apple zealots worked all day to afford Macs and iPods, Limbaugh zealots abused morphine, and Moore zealots have bad taste in films.

      I prefer Linux zealots but I am one.

    4. Re:Must Be True by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hardly, they'll use the networking effect. What company risks using the small startup's office suite, when none of their customers or suppliers do?

      Then, they use all sorts of aggressive tactics.

      Besides, what venture capitalist will fund a startup going up against Microsoft?

      I'm not saying it's forever, but in Microsoft's case, the monopoly will erode far slower than a monopoly carmaker's would.

    5. Re:Must Be True by Dashing+Leech · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The only way an *unearned* monopoly can exist is through government force.

      Not true at all. Microsoft uses (used?) its dominance in one market to force or bias usage of its products in other markets. This is more or less what the antitrust suits are all about. When an 800 lb gorilla like Microsoft tells vendors to only sell their products or they'll stop selling through them the vendor must comply.

      An earned monopoly comes from making the best product at a good cost value. Even MS dominance in Windows wasn't driven by it necessarily being the best product, it was because MS made exclusive deals to have their operating systems installed on PCs at the point of sale. Why would a consumer go through the hassle of finding another (better) OS, paying extra for it, removing the MS OS, and installing the new one. MS might have earned it in the "shrewd businessman" kind of "earned", but not in the "best product and value" kind of "earned".

    6. Re:Must Be True by ReaperOfSouls · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Besides, what venture capitalist will fund a startup going up against Microsoft? Every linux start up has in one way or another has gone up against Microsoft. Whether or not they are successful or not is not really at issue, but most of those companies got some of their start up cash from VCs. WRT to VCs, if you go and tell them that your new start up will be the new microsoft, then you will be laughed out of their office. The key is that you want to be able to show that you can take some reasonable portion of on of the many markets that MS operates in. If you can show your solution is better then microsoft, then you have a good chance at getting a hunk of cash. A good example is the number of Embedded Linux companies out there. The goal is not to take MS on head on, just to take on their embedded CE market.

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    7. Re:Must Be True by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Putting open source arguments to one side, normal economics says that if a well-healed monopoly with a significant investment entry barrier required to enter it, then that market is pretty much unassailable; very few businesses would risk trying to take it- the encumbent can too readily enter a price cutting war of attrition.

      The only way an *unearned* monopoly can exist is through government force.

      Depends what you mean by "earned". If you mean is it impossible for a rich, but otherwise clueless company to buy up all the competitors in any sector and achieve monopoly status- then no, of course not. And there are other ways this can come about, for example if a major competitor folds.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    8. Re:Must Be True by Anonymous+Writer · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's a perfectly cromulent word.

  2. Does Microsoft Cause Lower Prices? by pnatural · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, they don't.

    Are they the cause of cheaper software? Yes, they are.

    1. Re:Does Microsoft Cause Lower Prices? by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Are they the cause of cheaper software? Yes, they are.

      Indeed, "software sucks because users demand it to."

      In a market that Microsoft doesn't 0wn, it is a fearsome competitor on price by pumping out crappy software.

      However, in a market in which they are the monopoly, they don't stop pumping out the crappy software, but they charge monopoly rents to help fund their entry into the next market. The government is supposed to prevent this, but it seems to be out of antivirus.

    2. Re:Does Microsoft Cause Lower Prices? by ChatHuant · · Score: 2, Informative

      Now there is only office for 300 dollars, and you get MS(doesn't)works free w/ a new pc

      Unfortunately, you are badly uninformed.

      But hey, why let facts stop some good FUD?

    3. Re:Does Microsoft Cause Lower Prices? by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Think about the markets that Microsoft hasn't entered yet:
      AutoCAD
      Desktop Publishing
      Graphics Design
      Quark, MacroMedia, Adobe, these guys are still selling program for $700


      If you're not an architect or an engineer, why would you want Autocad at any price? If you are, $700 is peanuts for the tools of the trade. As for DTP, MS does make Publisher, very cheap, (but anyone professional will sneer at it) and is making a new photo editing app, not for professional publishing but for home use. But there is already a huge variety of photo editng apps, including from Adobe who've provided cut down versions of PS (PS Elements, PhotoDeluxe) that sell cheap and are often bundled with scanners or cameras. Corel has very cheap and very powerful photoediting and layout apps (I use their Ventura for laying out books). Paintshop Pro is cheap and has a strong following.

    4. Re:Does Microsoft Cause Lower Prices? by turgid · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Are they the cause of cheaper software? Yes, they are.

      The problem with software is that it can be copied for very little cost, so there is no incentive to pay for a cheaper alternative to the software you want, since you can almost always obtain an unlicensed copy for virtually free.

      Thus there is very little competition in the software market in the conventional sense.

      How many people do you know who run illegitimiate copies of Windows and Office? I've seen it happen countless times, when despite my offers of assistence people would rather just use unlicensed copies of commercial software.

      I've even seen people pay good money for pirate software, when I'd previously offered to give them Free software, set it up for them and show them how to use it.

      Next time I see someone "pirating" commercial software, I'm reporting them to the police and FAST. I've run out of patience and good will. Time for some REVENGE!

      Muhahahahhhahahahah

  3. correlational! by Frymaster · · Score: 5, Insightful
    any market that Microsoft has entered (financial software, spreadsheets, etc.), the effect has been a dramatic reduction in prices and an expansion of output and innovation

    this relationship looks correlational rather than causal. as the market for a certain type of home software expands, the price goes down. the same market force also attracts microsoft. both are the result of a common cause: the market.

    1. Re:correlational! by freemacmini · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually I think it's causal. MS can afford to subsidize software due to their monopoly profits. Of course this means the competition has to drop their prices hence "cutting off their air supply".

      Once the competition has been eliminated or marginilized MS raises their prices or holds them steady (see office).

      This is why open source is so great. MS can't undercut it and now is threatened with somebody else cutting off their air supply. Note how MS is cutting prices left and right on their monopoloy products.

      In the end MS will probably end up like netscape, you can't really win if your competition is giving away stuff for free.

    2. Re:correlational! by __aanebg9627 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      No, the relationship is causal -- predatory pricing.

      Microsoft is a classic monopolist, and shows the symptoms: significantly higher profits than other software industry businesses, over many years. If MSoft's products were in competitive sectors, its profits would be more in line with the rest of the industry, as competition would lower prices (basic Econ 101). Instead, it reaps returns far above average.

      Just read a few of the other articles on that site -- these people are polemicists, not economists. And not very good ones, either; their arguments have many logical holes. Lots of vigorous arm-waving, no rigor. It's probably some Republican-funded policy paper mill, clearly not an academic think tank. /ignore

    3. Re:correlational! by elhedran · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And the proof is an example where the market was already there.

      The console market. Microsoft entered, did the cost of games in the console market go down, no.

      What about movie editing, they haven't gone in (not seriously yet), but the price is dropping on more and more higher utility software.

      I would need to see more 'control' data to believe its causal.

    4. Re:correlational! by protohiro1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      They are a very old Libertarian think tank. They have an agenda and an axe to grind. They believe that all legislation regulating the economy is bad. It would be unlikely that they would reach a conclusion that anti-trust laws are a good thing.

      --
      Sig removed because it was obnoxious
  4. Oddly enough... by Xaroth · · Score: 4, Funny

    "I'd really like to see some on-line evidence of this. Has Microsoft competition in office suites really cut prices there?"

    Oddly enough... the price dropped 100% in the office suites arena. ;)

  5. Nope by doormat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because after MS runs the competition out of business (or out of that market), the only software in that segment is MS's overpriced Office suite (though the student edition of office isnt too bad).

    --
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  6. One nit-pick by mtnharo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From one perspective, yes, Microsoft does indeed cause lower software prices. Competition in a given market area (Office Suites etc) will reduce prices among different vendors. However, once a particular vendor has asserted dominance over a particular product area, they are free to raise their prices again. Thus, competitors in the Office Suite area (Staroffice, Wordperfect Office) are much less expensive, while Microsoft's product (especially full "Professional" versions) is much more expensive. Net effect: More expensive software for the consumer, because everyone "needs" the de facto standard.

    1. Re:One nit-pick by general_re · · Score: 2, Insightful
      However, once a particular vendor has asserted dominance over a particular product area, they are free to raise their prices again.

      Nevertheless, the price is still lower in real terms than it was before. In 1985, Wordperfect for DOS was selling for $450, which is around $790 when adjusted for inflation to today's dollars. Even if I go out and buy the full retail version of Office Professional 2003, it'll cost me $499 or so, or almost $300 less in real terms than WP cost back in 1985. And in return for that lower price in real terms, you get a product that is virtually infinitely more capable than the older product.

      Whether they've raised their prices or not since 1985 is really neither here nor there - consumers are still winners over the same period.

      --
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    2. Re:One nit-pick by shystershep · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The price may be lower in real terms, but the same is true of nearly everything in computers and electronics -- in fact, I can't think of a single example where a product (hardware, software, etc.) is more expensive or even the same price in real dollars as it was 20 years ago. Hell, now you can buy a computer with more processing power than a 1985 mainframe for less than you paid (in 1985 dollars) for a Commodore 64.

      The question is not whether prices have dropped, but whether they are artificially high. In other words, has Microsoft's monopoly position kept prices from dropping compared to what they would be if those prices were determined solely by supply and demand? There is no way of knowing for certain, but I would be willing to bet the answer is yes.

      As an aside, Corel et al. aren't competing with a $499 product; they're competing with a product that is sold at its list price, sold at vast discounts, and widely pirated (e.g., free). It would make an interesting study, but my guess is that the prices of Microsoft's competitors are probably somewhere near the true market price given the wide range of the actual cost for Microsoft products.

      --
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    3. Re:One nit-pick by Andy+Gardner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is that the market was much smaller in 1985 so prices had to be higher, since then the computer/software market has exploded. Todays product may be $300 cheaper considering inflation but I suspect it should be a hell of a lot cheaper considering the increased consumption.

    4. Re:One nit-pick by jbolden · · Score: 2, Informative

      Lotus 1-2-3 was hand coded assembly. It was fast not feature rich. Lets not forget how much more code you are getting today and how much more it does. Applications that do far more than these apps did are free today.

  7. Actually it is open source that does it. by Saven+Marek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well this is ignoring other factors.

    When you look at it you will see MS enters markets that already exist. They pick and choose and go in when things are getting popular

    The thing this article misses is that also when things get popular open source people come in too and write their own versions for free. And they do it better than propriterary software usually.

    Which is the real thing that drives prices down.

    High margins and high profits only exist in really tiny niche markets that dont have many competitors.

    Microsoft is just entering markets that also other competitors such as open source teams are entering and thus it is not just microsoft who is making prices lower. Somebody has not thought this through properly.

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    1. Re:Actually it is open source that does it. by Durandal64 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The thing this article misses is that also when things get popular open source people come in too and write their own versions for free. And they do it better than propriterary software usually.

      Which is the real thing that drives prices down.
      I love the idea of open source, but if you honestly think that it drives the prices of commercial software down, you're kidding yourself, at least on the consumer level. OpenOffice is nice and all, but it's just as bloated as Microsoft Office, and it's got the same nightmarish, crappy user interface. OpenOffice is too busy trying to imitate Microsoft Office. And don't get me started on the Gimp. Again, great idea, but the user interface is a travesty.

      Things like Firefox and Gaim are pretty well-done, but they aren't replacements for commercial software; they are replacements for shitty free software like Internet Explorer and AIM.
    2. Re:Actually it is open source that does it. by say · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OpenOffice is nice and all, but it's just as bloated as Microsoft Office, and it's got the same nightmarish, crappy user interface. OpenOffice is too busy trying to imitate Microsoft Office.

      So basically you're saying: OpenOffice doesn't compete with MS Office because it generally is the same (with the same disadvantages) and is cheaper? I don't think your logics teacher will be too impressed.

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    3. Re:Actually it is open source that does it. by freemacmini · · Score: 2, Informative

      "I love the idea of open source, but if you honestly think that it drives the prices of commercial software down, you're kidding yourself, at least on the consumer level."

      Nonsense. How many times MS lowered prices on windows and office when corporations, countries and cities have threatened to switch? You can buy a legal copy of windows XP and office for $50.00 in taiwan legally. MS has reduced their prices by more then $400 in order to compete with open source.

    4. Re:Actually it is open source that does it. by LighthouseJ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is that OSS will always be catching up. I have yet to see popular OSS software show real innovation. They are just alternatives to existing applications. While that itself isn't bad, the innovators that pioneer original applications will continue working and breaking new ground and making money until free competitors catch up to them.

    5. Re:Actually it is open source that does it. by Perky_Goth · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ldap, zeroconf, the bsd tcpip stack, tex, apache, zope+plone...

      look harder.

    6. Re:Actually it is open source that does it. by nathanh · · Score: 2, Interesting
      but nothing as groundbreaking as a graphical user interface

      You do realise the GUI wasn't groundbreaking? Apple took two attempts before they got a winner. They'd based several of their ideas on research papers written by Raskin, pioneering work by Engelbart in the 60s, ideas taken from Smalltalk, etc. It was all incremental improvement.

      Xerox PARC is often credited as the "source" that inspired Apple (though Raskin denies even that much) but PARC didn't innovate either. They integrated a bunch of existing ideas into a technology demo. Windows, viewports, scrollbars, icons, menus; those ideas all predated PARC.

      or the internet itself has come along in a long time.

      The Internet took more than 2 decades to become an overnight success. Once again, very slow incremental improvements were the key.

      My next thought was "when is the next instance of revolutionary technology going to hit?"

      It will never "hit". That's a sensationalist point of view that Cringely likes to play upon because it makes for a more exciting story. The reality is that the revolutionary technology is probably already out there. You just don't know about it yet. Eventually it will reach a critical mass of users and "tip", at which point it takes over the industry and becomes the "revolution". But it's not really a revolution. It's just the slow incremental improvement of existing software.

      My point is that it's the commercial software firms are making the innovations, albeit small, because they are being paid to.

      I don't see the commercial software firms as being a good source of innovation. The innovative GUI came from university funded research centres. The innovative Internet came from government sponsored research centres working in cooperation with universities. UNIX might have been sparked from Bell, but the vast majority of the work that turned UNIX into something useful came from... say it with me... a university funded research centre.

      Commercial software firms are famous for taking proven ideas and making money. Not for innovation.

  8. Wal-Mart causes lower prices, too by Space+Coyote · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's not the point. The point is whether Microsoft has used its monopoly position in the market to stifle competition. The same argument is always used by companies accused of dumping in a market, and it doesn't hold up in court.

    --
    ___
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  9. monopolistic trends by potpie · · Score: 4, Informative

    A monopoly produces and prices according to it's production possiblities curve (I think that's what it's called) whereby it produces the most for the least cost and charges to maximize profits. But because there is little competition, they are able to charge less and make more money. Thus, any company trying to compete with the monopoly would have to lower its own prices, reducing its profits, just to keep up. Correct me if I'm wrong; it's been a while since I took economics.

    --
    Esoteric reference.
  10. This is absolutely true (to a point...) by ChiefPilot · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The classic behavior is that a company drives down prices to get rid of the competition (if its internal costs allow that), then raise prices after the competition is gone.

    While MS has competition within a market (Word Processing comes to mind) their prices are very low. I recall Word selling for $99 back when it was competing with WordPerfect. Today, with essentially zero competition, it's $299.

    Of course the counter-argument is Excel vs Borland's Quattro Pro: Excel was at $495 and QPro at $295, but despite great QPro reviews vs Excel purchasers thought QPro was not in Excel's league because it was too cheap!

    1. Re:This is absolutely true (to a point...) by Keeper · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Your pricing information is incorrect, as is your recollection of "historical" prices. I have never seen the MSRP of Word fall under $100.

      The MSRP of Microsoft Word 2003 is $229. Your number is off by more than 20%. It is trivial to find the standalone application available for a cost drastically lower than MSRP.

      In 1986, Wordperfect 4.2 sold for $500. Microsoft Office (which had 3 applications at the time) came out at cost slightly less than that. Today the MSRP of Microsoft Office Standard Edition (which has 4 applications bundled) is $400.

      Excluding inflation, the Office Suite produced by Microsoft is cheaper than it was 15 years ago (and you get more with it). If you take inflation into account, the cost of software has dropped significantly.

  11. Re:Microsoft = Walmart by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 2, Insightful
    (Nobody think it's worthwile to engineer a $200 competitor to Office.)

    Or even a free one.

  12. What innovation is that? by nagora · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Last time I checked MS hadn't made any innovative contributions to the world of computing. So at least part of the argument is just wrong.

    As to the pricing thing, well. Where I lived in England (really England, not meaning "any part of Britain"), Stagecoach (a bus company) rolled into town and set their prices at zero until all the other bus companies went out of business. Then they stuck their prices up to something slightly less than the old prices.

    Sure, prices were lower but in getting there all competition had been destroyed and Stagecoach is no longer (especially since they got control of the trains too) under any pressure to ensure quality. So they don't.

    It's the same with Microsoft: after they crap all over a market to kill all the competition they simply sit around and look for new ways to screw the trapped clients. Sure, the prices are lower, but quality is non-existant and customer service is some sort of joke.

    IE is a good example: until Firefox came along it had basically been left to rot. It still doesn't actually manage CSS level 1 or 2 to anything like a decent level, or display PNGs correctly. Sure, browers are bloody cheap (free) but if you'd been waiting for MS to innovate you'd have been dead and buried before it happened.

    TWW

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    1. Re:What innovation is that? by GileadGreene · · Score: 2, Interesting
      However, if the government does nothing then the 1800's and the rail-barons is what you get.

      Uh, you do realize that most of the railroad baron's fortunes were built on government contracts and government subsidies, don't you? If the government had "done nothing" there wouldn't have been any railroad barons.

  13. True... BUT by MBCook · · Score: 2, Insightful
    This is true. Because MS moved in and grabbed market share, other companies that tried to stay in dropped their price. Horrah!

    BUT... price isn't everything. Instead of having 3, 4, 5, or more products all competing against themselves and one-upping eachother for $60 each, you now have 2 products, at $50 each. Which is better?

    Now certanly $50 is easier on your wallet. But what about the OTHER effects? MS products tend to rapidly get better untill they are better than everyone else and therefor "good enough". Then then stagnate. They stagnate like time stopped. So you have one product that's good enough, and another that will try to get better. But once that other product gets better, it will reach a point where it's better than MS's. Then what? Well since by now they probably have a much smaller market share, MS can sit by comfortably. Thus the second company doesn't have to work too hard because their product is already the superior. They can keep trying to make it MORE superior, but it probably won't change things. Firefox changed IE (a little), but that took HOW LONG? Things stagnated since IE 4 or 5 (and IE still has serious problems). And other than adding a popup blocker (which does work) and more warning dialogs (which never work), IE is the same. Consumers lost. Hopefully Firefox will get accepted enough for the cycle to repeat.

    What about other products. How 'bout financial software. You have Quicken and Money for the home. That's it. Money works but I find a large number of annoyances in it (it's what I use). Quicken works, but I don't like it's interface at all (Money's is nicer IMHO). So I'm stuck choosing between the two. There is no third party to force them to improve against eachother, they are are usually considdered about the same quality (from ratings I remember seeing). No one will enter this market because it already has 2 juggernauts and they'll never get in (open source excepted). This isn't very good for the consumer.

    Unless you use a Mac. If you use a Mac, MS doesn't MAKE Money for Mac. So you can choose between Quicken and... Quicken. What a buffet of options. Fantastic. The situation on the Mac is even worse (from what I know, there may be some other piece of software out there, but from my perspective (a rather highly educated consumer when it comes to computers) there are two options). And the Mac is considdered a small market with a monopoly product (Quicken) so no one will enter that market and provide competition. You just have to hope improves from Windows move over. And even if someone DOES enter the market, MS can always walk in and sell Money if they see you doing good, and you're gone. Quicken can survive, you little product probably won't.

    I'll take $10 to $20 more and a better selection and more improvements from healthy competition over the cheaper stagnate price.

    If that's all it takes to make things "better" for the consumer, lets have the Government make everything and sell one brand and price it 5% less than the old commercial products were. There will never be improvements, and quality will probably suffer without competition, but IT COSTS LESS!

    Prices are better, quality isn't. And I contend that prices are better only through last ditch efforts to stay alive. If they little guys go out of business after MS enters a market and MS is left the only game in town with over 5% market share, they are free to never cut prices again or even raise them. Do you think Windows would cost $200-$300 per PC if MS had competition?

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  14. Bad premise by deblau · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Evidence: Software products that do not compete with Microsoft's products fell in price by 12 percent from 1988 to 1995, but by 60 percent where there was competition from Microsoft.

    Explanation: Microsoft discovered the popular application markets. So did a lot of other companies, quite independantly. There would have been price competition between everyone else, even had MS not entered those markets. The markets in which MS did not invest money aren't as lucrative (being more niche markets). There are fewer players in side markets, and as a result there hasn't been as much competition in those areas of software development.

    Lesson: correlation != causation. If you're claiming causation, you better have damn good evidence. Would there not have been drastic price reductions in the spreadsheet market without Excel? Put it another way, what would the market look like without MS ever being involved? I have no reason to believe it would look any different than it does now.

    Mark the article (-1, Troll).

    --
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  15. Photoshop by mishmash · · Score: 5, Funny

    The existance of MSPaint doesn't seam to be making Photoshop more affordable.

    1. Re:Photoshop by msully4321 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Who modded this funny? By default, anybody who laughs at their own joke is *not* funny.

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    2. Re:Photoshop by nsasch · · Score: 5, Funny

      Imagine if MSPaint didn't exist. Photoshop would cost even more! But thankfully, I can do everything in paint, from stick figures to solid backgrounds. What can Photoshop possibly do to make it better than MSPaint?!?!?!

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  16. Re:Of course this is true by Twanfox · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, if I recall right (and I may not, so .. whatever), the notion of selling the 'base' product at a loss is called a loss leader. You find this in many things, such as razors and razorblades, printers and print cartridges, and game consoles and games. Any place where you can sell some consumable that you need to operate a device, you can generally get away with selling something as a loss leader. The only problem is that you are counting on people to buy the secondary items. If someone comes up with another use for the base device that doesn't use those secondary items (say using an XBox as a multimedia PC, not for games), your plan could backfire.

    Price gouging is more like what the RIAA did. Collaboration between the members kept prices high dispite market demand (or lack thereof). You priced it at this pay scale so everyone would assume that the price you see for new CD's (say, $18.99) is just common, even if after all costs are paid for and fair profit margin applied, it remains excessively high. You either bought it at the price they set or you didn't buy it, and you couldn't find alternatives.

  17. Re:Of course this is true by raehl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And why expect the prices to go up?

    If the prices go up, then it becomes reasonable for another competitor to enter the market again, restoring competition. Microsoft isn't the only company with a war chest.

    Driving your competition out of the marketplace isn't a PERMANENT condition - if it took below-cost prices to take over the market, it'll take below-market prices to keep control of the market.

    Prices will go up not because competition got eliminated, but because you can't maintain those prices forever. The consumer benefits as long as manufacturers try though.

  18. Re:Yes it has. by MBCook · · Score: 2, Interesting
    And "home" computers were $10,000 once. If I pay $10,000 for a computer, $500 seems reasonable for software. If a computer costs $1000, $50 seems reasonable for software. See a trend? They BOTH cost 10% of what they did.

    BTW. Wordstar was $295, Word is $217. The 10% rule would put it at $30 (which would be reasonable), tripleing that would put it at $90 (Word is powerfull). Microsoft prices it at $217.

    A computer that is THOUSANDS of times more powerful costs 1/20th what it did then. The leading wordprocessor costs 2/3rds. Yeah, software prices have declined.

    PS: I know, buy Office and things are cheaper than buying individually, but the point is MS did not push down prices quite like you think.

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    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  19. Re:Of Course the do by surefooted1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    MS is a monopoly. When they enter a new market, they sell their products at a loss, with the express purpose of driving their competition out of business.

    But what large organization doesn't? You just explained Walmart's strategy too.

  20. Hmm, there is something more devious going on here by SerpentMage · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The traditional logic is that once Microsoft has attained enough market share prices will go up. Well, nope that is not what I seem to see happen. What I see happening is even more devious.

    Microsoft enters a market and calculates a sweet price, a price where people will buy the product. Then it keeps that price and increases to cover inflation. Is there anything wrong with this? Absolutely! The problem is that Microsoft does not lower their prices after that.

    In a normal market prices drop once new versions enter the market, etc, etc. Take a look at computers, cars, houses (not the properties, but building materials) and prices do drop.

    Where prices do not drop is in controlled markets, like what Microsoft has, and what the music or film industry has. Also want to see another thing about these markets? There are some who make damm big bucks and tons of people who are just eecking out a living.

    How do you change this? Consumers have the power to choose and they should use Open Source, buy "B rated" DVD's, and buy directly from unknown artists.

    --

    "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
    "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
  21. its not just microsoft .. by torpor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    .. its computers. anywhere you start to computerize, things get cheaper and more efficient.

    to say its 'microsofts fault, specifically', is to say that "computers are as good as they are because IBM made computers".

    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  22. I fired Microsoft this weekend... by zoid.com · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been using Linux for the last 11 years but I have also kept Microsoft on the family system because it has been more user friendly and familiar than Linux and cheaper than Mac. However.... this weekend after getting so frustrated at XP and the way it thinks it knows better than I do about what I want to do, and the fact it's o bug/virus/scumware/spyware/leachware etc.. I decided I would finally go completely M$ free. Wiped the hard drive on y laptop and installed Mepis Linux. Ordered a Mac Mini for the family. As soon as it gets here I'm going to install MythTV on the old XP box (ATI AIW 9600). It feels almost like I quit smoking.

  23. Correct. A classic monopolist example by BerntB · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I'm not an economist, but I think this is a classic monopolist example.

    Consider an area with many small bakeries. A big company goes in and opens bread shops with lower prices so the small shops have to close.

    Good for the consumers? No.

    After the small companies close down, because of the lower prices from the big company, the prices are increased to higher than the small companies had before the big company went into the area!!

    The profit from the high prices is used to undercut small businesses in the next area the big company takes over...

    Now, replace a geographic area with a type of application (spreadsheet, writing, etc).

    When Microsoft goes into a new area, they move their investments there. The speed of development in the old area goes down. (But while Msoft takes over an application area -- the speed and development is faster!)

    The development speed for new revolutionary features of Internet Explorer or Office isn't high...

    When there is competition in an area taken over earlier, lots of developers (paid by the monopoly profits from some other controlled area) are moved back into that place -- until the threat is gone.

    So now, with Firefox, there will be development on Internet Explorer.

    At any given time, it's better to use the monopolist product -- but in total it's never good for anyone, except for the monopolist.

    --
    Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
    1. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by onepoint · · Score: 3, Informative

      What you are saying is true, but the overal picture, is the long term growth of the market.

      standard oil is a classic example of reduced volitility of oil prices, standards or production, refinement of product, and quality improvement.

      Now we know what happened to standard oil, Breakup. There is good chance that it will happen again with MS. But like Standard oil, it will take anyware from 15 to 30 years ( history points that the Cry of Monopolist was already shouted to standard oil by 1885 if not prior to that )

      Onepoint

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
    2. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by mr.mighty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, strictly speaking, all software producers that charge higher than the cost of producing and shipping one more copy are exerting market power. What's happening is that microsoft is being attracted to a market where a monopoly exists (by someone else) by the high profits possible, and the competition reduces prices. It's still not the market setting prices, but Microsoft deciding which price will maximize profits. The problem is that no software company can survive only selling software if they don't have some monopoly power, because the marginal costs for software are so low - that's the price free markets set, and in the case of software it's less than the cost of developing it in the first place.

      In the future, markets will eventually force most commercial software to be pretty close to free.

    3. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not an economist, but I think this is a classic monopolist example.

      Perhaps, but your conclusion is wrong.

      Consider an area with many small bakeries. A big company goes in and opens bread shops with lower prices so the small shops have to close.

      If they cannot compete long term becayue they believe the larger company can sustain the low prices.

      Good for the consumers? No.

      Sure - they're paying less for bread.

      After the small companies close down, because of the lower prices from the big company, the prices are increased to higher than the small companies had before the big company went into the area!!

      But then new competitors move in, because they can make a profit at the higher price, which forces the monolpolist to lower prices again, and keep them there, to keep out competition. If they echibit a pattern of lowering and raising prices, competitors will stay in beacuse they believe the low prices ar enot sustainable and eventually prices will rise to livable levels.

      The profit from the high prices is used to undercut small businesses in the next area the big company takes over...

      Except there is no excess profit to use this way - beacuse that will bring in competition, forcing prices down.

      In the end, the consumer wins, because prices are lower than before.

      And that doesn't even take into account the ability of stores to specialize to avoid competing in a commodity business where the bigger company has more power. (ever get a decent loaf of bread from a factory bakery?)

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    4. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by shatfield · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft illegally tied Internet Explorer to Windows and killed Netscape the company.

      Now, why would they do that? Because they thought it would be good for their customers? Nope. They simply wanted to kill Netscape before Netscape had a chance to kill Windows.

      Netscape was on the virge of having a full blown, cross platform Client/Server based web solution. Using Java, you'd be able to accomplish pretty much anything that you could do with Windows, in a cross platform manner. Microsoft killed Netscape as fast as it possibly could to protect their Windows monopoly.

      I believe that this is what you meant by "Being a dick and using illegal monopoly power".

      But my mom always told me that everything happens for a reason. Apparently that reason is so that we don't have to pay anything for a web browser, and we get entertained while Microsoft gets their asses handed to them by Firefox.

      Otherwise, we'd still be using Netscape for $30 to $50 a pop.

      All's well that ends well, I guess.

      --
      "To make a mistake is only human; to persist in a mistake is idiotic." Cicero
    5. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by eric_ste · · Score: 3, Interesting


      Good for the consumers? No.

      Sure - they're paying less for bread.


      Until the population notices that the bread is of very poor quality like the rest of their mass produced cheap food after which they can only conclude that paying less made them fat.

      cheap food = cheap nutrition = expensive & serious health consequences.

    6. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by Dashing+Leech · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Sure - they're paying less for bread."

      Over the short term, but in the long run it costs them more (as mentioned in the example).

      "But then new competitors move in, because they can make a profit at the higher price, which forces the monolpolist to lower prices again, and keep them there, to keep out competition."

      That may be true for this specific example, but imagine a case where the monopolist bakery sets up a system where you get your bread delivered automatically with the morning paper and the money is automatically withdrawn. In order to cancel this service you have to call the bakery service line, then call the newspaper service, then call your bank, each time waiting for a service agent. Now a competing bakery can't just offer lower prices to take away the monopolist's customers. They must first get the word to the customers (who don't shop around anymore becuase everything is automated) and offer something that is worth the hassle the customers would have to go through to make the change. It's not the price that the competition has to overcome, it's the hassle the customers have to go through to change.

      This is a more appropriate analogy to the Microsoft case. Switching from Microsoft is more than a cost issue. Just look at the available alternatives to MS Office. Most are cheaper (or even free) and offer the same, similar, or better features and quality. Yet people aren't dropping MS Office like a hot potatoe because of the hassle involved in switching. (In the case of businesses, "hassle" equates to "cost" and "lost production".) The same could be said for operating systems. Microsofts business model is closer to a drug pusher's than a bakery.

      Cheaper price over a short term (in a given market) does not mean it's best for the consumers in the long run. They are asking the wrong question.

    7. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by clontzman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Microsoft illegally tied Internet Explorer to Windows and killed Netscape the company.

      Er... if I recall, AOL bought Netscape for $4.2 BILLION. This was a company that didn't exist a couple of years before. No company that went from zero to $4+ billion in value can be said to have been "killed." AOL let them die is more like it.

      Netscape was on the virge of having a full blown, cross platform Client/Server based web solution.

      If PR was product, you'd be right, but they were pretty far from actually delivering anything (unless you remember Netcaster as being a particularly brilliant piece of software).

      MS competed with Netscape by making their product better and cheaper, while Netscape stalled development of Navigator for years. Netscape wasn't killed; it killed itself.

    8. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I think the original article is wrong in its assumptions.

      Something people seem to forget is that Microsoft is its own worst enemy. Microsoft isn't enhancing Office 2005 to compete with Open Office.org 2.0. Microsoft is enhancing Office 2005 to compete with Office 2003!

      Consider: Microsoft has giant piles of cash, Bill Gates is closer to Scrooge McDuck than any person in history. But what he doesn't have is a steady revenue stream, constantly topping off his vault. He has to constantly create new reasons for people to send him money. Sure, Microsoft has OS sales for new PCs, but Office upgrades? Why would the users upgrade? Office 2003 still works fine. Office XP still works fine. Office 97 still works OK. Office 95 still works, sort of. The "features" that Office 2005 bring to the table are the only reasons people would have to upgrade, and Office 2003 is already a really complete product that most businesses love. Therefore Office 2005 would just be a waste, right?

      In order to get you buying Office 2005, they have to make it attractive enough that you'll consider it worth $239 more than Office 2003. And most people won't. Therefore, Microsoft doesn't make as much money.

      Microsoft has two choices here to get cash churning again: One, speed up the End-of-Life process -- ditch support for Office 95, 97, and XP soon, and ditch Office 2003 two years after Office 2005 comes out.

      The scarier option (that they are busy pursuing) is to turn software into a "rental" or "lease" business. And the only way they can accomplish that is by locking down their users' computers so they can't keep using the same old software: Trusted Computing, here we come! With Trusted Computing, if you don't pay your $9.95 per month for Office, you won't get Office. Sure, that $9.95 per month keeps you in the "newest" Office, whenever they get around to releasing one, but basically it turns Office into a revenue stream. Is $120 per year cheaper than $259 every two years? Depends on if you would ordinarily upgrade the day Office 2007 comes out.

      --
      John
    9. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by BerntB · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There is a third option: Incompatibility with earlier versions.

      Some boss will buy a new portable that is preloaded with a new version of Windows and Office. Documents won't work that well between the new and earlier versions of Office...

      (And, typically, the new portable can't run earlier versions of Windows... or something.)

      --
      Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
    10. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by BerntB · · Score: 2, Insightful
      MS competed with Netscape by making their product better and cheaper
      You claim that MS made IE for 0 dollars??

      The only reason to give away IE was to kill Netscape, because it might have been competition. Standard monopolist tactics to "remove the oxygen supply".

      (How the hell was that modded up??)

      --
      Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
    11. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by jdgeorge · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm not an economist, but I think this is a classic monopolist example.

      Consider an area with many small bakeries. A big company goes in and opens bread shops with lower prices so the small shops have to close.

      Good for the consumers? No.

      If this were true, that would suggest that Walmart is bad for consumers. From many economists' points of view, this is simply not true; Walmart brings and maintains low prices.

      The negative effect of Walmart, Microsoft, and other monopolists is that while the prices of goods often go down, the diversity of local vendors dimishes, and the remaining local businesses are mostly no longer owned by local businessmen. Locally owned businesses are driven out of the economy, so the money the local people bring into their local economy goes right back out of the economy through the almost always non-local monopolist.

      People who view monopolies as positive don't view the annihilation of successful local economies as negative. This is the common approach in US economics, where the significant measures of an economy are considered to be average wealth, and average global quality of life, rather than median wealth and quality of life.

    12. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by nsda's_deviant · · Score: 2, Informative

      A monopoly does not always undercut the competition. What you claim (A monopoly always undercuts the competition) is completely untrue. Did EA sports undercut the price of Madden to compete against ESPN NFL?

      Firms can undercut existing prices to quickly capture market shares or firms can compete at a completely different price based on features and product offerings.

      I've argued that competition that lowers people's cost of entry onto the internet as being a good thing. I LIKE HOW WEB-BROWSERS ARE FREE. So Microsoft used illegal competitive tactics to neutralize Netscape. Yes /. I understand that completely. It happened years ago, we're all still affected by it, I'm writing this in Firefox, blah blah blah. But if your telling me that web browsers that are free is a bad thing then I don't think your understanding my point. I think its great that hundreds of millions of people have had access to a free web browser (despite how inferior it maybe) so they can browse webpages instead of AOL or MSN proprietary networks. I can think of all the information dissemination that has exploded since people didn't have to pay money for webbrowsers and the web was limited to people who had browsers. This isn't as important today but in 1997 (before Firefox, Mozilla, Safari), this was huge.

    13. Re:Correct. A classic monopolist example by BerntB · · Score: 2, Informative
      [a free web browser] isn't as important today but in 1997 (before Firefox, Mozilla, Safari), this was huge.
      There were free web browsers '97. Mosaic, etc.

      Consumers usually didn't pay for Netscape in practice (I think it was free for academic institutions). If my memory serves, corporations paid to get support.

      Hence, I seriously doubt this was "huge" enough to ignore criminal monopolists killing competition.

      (OK, duh, monopolies only undercut competition when they need to do it to kill 'em off.)

      --
      Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
  24. Temporary fall in prices by syousef · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The usual pattern is:

    1) Software companies drop their prices on products competing with MS products.

    2) MS then drops its prices to a point where the company cannot compete. They don't care if they take a loss because other business sustains them while they're strangling the competition. (In the case of Internet Explorer when competing with Netscape they dropped their price to zero)

    3) The competing company typically diversifies as it needs other sources of income. It's often difficult to do this successfully, but if the company does it may even pull out of the competition all together

    4) Microsoft either buys out the competitor, or continues to sell at a low price until the competitor is no longer in the market.

    5) Once Microsoft has dominated the market, prices go up. Have a look at the price of MS Office since it has dominated.

    It's a proven business strategy. Unfortunately it kills competition and therefore innovation. It makes no sense to keep prices low if you've effectively cornered the market either.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  25. MPEG LA was protesting Microsoft's low prices. by Utopia · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A good example of how Microsoft is effecting prices is in the consumer media formats.

    Microsoft undercut MPEG-4 consortium's prices by offering licensing charges of 10 cents per encoder for its codec.
    The MPEG-4 gropup charges 25 cents.

    This led to protests from the MPEG-4 group including attempts to belittle Microsoft's codec in the press.

  26. Umm, no. by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Anyone with a war chest has a simple plan:
    1. Enter market
    2. Set prices lower than competitors can set theirs.
    3. Wait for competitors to leave market because it is not profitable.
    4. Raise prices to gouge customers.

    No-one can or will re-enter the market because at that point you can just lower your prices again. As it actually takes investment to enter a market, the immediate undercutting by you will blow them out of the water.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Umm, no. by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is probably true enough, however, you are leaving out an essential fifth step:

      5. Keep prices high enough for long enough to cover the cost of steps #2 and #3.

      Because, you see, once you've done step #4, you give competitors a reason to enter the market. Then you have to go back to steps #2 and #3 again, further pushing into the future the completion of step #5, which is the only one which can justify all the other steps.

      Show me an example of all five steps happening, and I'll believe your assertion that this is actually a problem.
      -russ

      --
      Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  27. Yeppers... by T-Ranger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Microsoft products are "good enough" and "cheap". When MS enters a given market, their products are never as good as what is out there, but they are cheap. Some example:

    • DOS 1.0 was both significnatly worse and cheaper then CP/M
    • Word v. Wordperfect, AmiPro, Wordstar... just about everything
    • Excell v. 123, Quatro
    • Windows 3.11 (for workgroups), NT 3.5, Windows 95 v. Netware, Banyan
    • IIS v. *NIX w/Apache, BIND, etc
    • Exchange v. Groupwise
    • MS-SQL v DB2, Oracle, (flat text files)
    • IE v Netscape
    • Hyperterminal v everything else
    This is not to say that these MS products have not since passed the quality of their competition, some have. Of course, in many of these cases it is because MS has driven the competition out of business compleatly.

    A recent review of OOo, the author made the comment "OOo will out Microsoft Microsoft". Compared to MS-Office, OOo isnt very good. But its good enough. And its a hell of a lot cheaper. Thus OOo will out Microsoft, Microsoft. The same is true to some degree with other projects like Samba.

    So in response to the articles question: Duh. Thats what Microsoft does. They sell good enough crap for less, forcing companies who produce good stuff to reduce their prices, reduce their marketshare, or die.

  28. Re:Of course this is true by arkhan_jg · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Driving your competition out of the marketplace isn't a PERMANENT condition - if it took below-cost prices to take over the market, it'll take below-market prices to keep control of the market.

    You're forgetting lock-in. Once a company has a monopoly, it can set it's own standards and doesn't have to worry about interoperability with other people's software, and can use it's own position to make interoperability with itself as hard as possible.

    Take microsoft office for example; competitors not only have to be free (or at least much cheaper) to even get into the market at all, they have to work with non-standard undocumented office files.

    IE is another; look at how many sites only render properly in IE because people have coded to it's broken implementation of CSS and java, rather than go the extra mile to code to standards AND IE's cackhanded version of them.

    Hell, look how microsoft is using it's desktop monopoly to push windows media player and it's DRM codecs. Only a couple of a days I had a student who lost all his recorded wma files because he didn't realise DRM was on by default, and now his backups are worthless because he didn't backup the licence files too. By making windows media codecs the default for all windows users, they're starting to push out the competition.

    Assuming they succeed, there's nothing to stop them sticking to form and making longhorn only able to work with Windows Media drm formats, thus forcing you to stick to windows (and its media player) if you want to access your own music or home videos, or listen to internet radio, or watch internet films.

    Lock-in lets monopolies keep their position without lowering prices, or innovating, or improving quality.

    And before someone says it, no, IE and WMP are not free. You just pay it as part of the tax when you buy a new PC that's very hard to get without windows (and it's only the courts that have made even that possible, given microsoft used to use OEM agreements to make every computer ship with windows.)

    I also disagree that microsoft has lowered prices. Last I heard, microsoft made 80%+ profit on windows. Windows 95 cost £39. Windows XP Pro costs £151. And the CAL costs... wow, they've gone up a lot. 5 years ago, I paid £5 a seat for NT licences. Now, at a school, we're expected to pay £30 a seat. I don't think inflation is that bad.

    --
    Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
  29. Re:Hmm, there is something more devious going on h by symbolic · · Score: 2, Insightful


    Show me an American consumer with a sense of discipline and self-reliance, and I'll show you a much freer market.

  30. OK, Here is how it works-- by DrDebug · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1) A company comes up with a novel computer idea.

    2) Microsoft ignores it while it is a 'fad', so the original company can more or less charge what they want.

    3) The 'fad' becomes a trend, and Microsoft gets interested.

    4) Using their overwhelming resources, Microsoft develops a competing product, at a much lower price. (This is in lieu of getting the technology by 'other' methods).

    5) The original company laughs it off, since any Microsoft product version 1.x or 2.x is not really competitive, and sometimes horrible.

    6) Over time, the Microsoft product gains technological and marketing credibility.

    7) The original company tries to hold on, but the lower prices of the Microsoft product (plus the creeping featuritis of the Microsoft product) eventually lead to the companies demise.

    8) The original company gives up, and releases all of their people. Naturally, Microsoft swoops in to skim off the cream of that crop.

    9) Microsoft now owns 100% of the market.

    10) Microsoft freezes development on the product and starts looking for another victim company to screw.

    11) Rinse, lather, repeat.

  31. Shoddy Journalism by AdrianG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This article seems like one of the worse excuses for journalism I've seen in some time. The author writes:

    • Competitors will always whine and cry about how the price-cutting, product-improving, and customer-satisfying practices of their more successful rivals are "unfair." This in fact is the modus operandi of antitrust: The antitrust laws provide a means by which sour-grapes competitors can achieve through politics what they fail to achieve in the marketplace.

    This is a dreadfully dishonest characterization of anti-trust laws. Microsoft wasn't accused of success through fair competition. They were accused of a series of dirty tricks that have nothing to do with competing on a level playing field. These tricks include giving their customers discounts if those customers would design their own web sites so that non-MS browsers wouldn't work with them, and pushing PC makers into deals where they had to pay for MS licences, even for machines that were to be loaded with non-MS operating systems.

    • Neither economists nor politicians nor policy wonks are capable of deciding the most "efficient" size or configuration of any business enterprise. As Ludwig von Mises once explained, "The question to be decided is: Who should determine the size of the enterprises, the consumers by their striving to buy what suits them best or the politicians who know only how to tax away and to spend?"

    This is a strawman argument. Anti-trust laws aren't designed to limit the size or market share of companies; The are designed to limit companies from using monopolies or near-monopolies unfairly to exclude competition. As such, they are only targetted at companies that actually have monopolies or near monopolies. But I supposed it's easier for the unscrupulous to simply make up non-sense positions for their adversaries and to claim that their adversaries hold those non-sense positions than it is to argue against the positions their adversaries actually take.

    • By adhering to this false "maxim" antitrust regulators are attempting to supersede the informed judgment of millions of consumers

    Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that most consumers are informed enough to exercise informed judgement, those consumers can only use there judgement to decide among the choices they actually have. If I offer an OS at the same price as MS's and if customers can choose which one to purchase, customers can make a simple judgement about the qualities of the OSs. But if MS has strong-armed vendors into making my customers pay for MS-Windows in addition to my OS for any machine they buy, even if my OS is the only one loaded, then the consumer's choice isn't just about OS qualities, anymore.

    • Third, the government is clearly unconcerned about consumer welfare in its prosecution of Microsoft: In Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson's November 1999 "Statement of Fact" he devoted a mere five out of 412 paragraphs to the issue of consumer welfare.

    This is just plain stupid. The point of Judge Jackson's "Findings of Fact" document was to describe the facts of the case, and not to concentrate on the social consequences of the facts. And in any case, the proper focus of a Judge is on the law and on the facts of a case. The author of this article is either showing his ignorance or his dishonesty.

    • He rests his case on the lame notion that, in his opinion, the company's management had "anticompetitive motives." Economic analysis may not be Mr. Litan's strong point, but mind-reading apparently is. He claims that such a malevolent "intent" has harmed Microsoft's competitor Netscape by keeping it from competing in the Web browser market. In fact, Netscape has distributed more than 150 million copies of its browser since 1995.

    The author completely misses the point, and we are left to wonder if he did more than skim the "Findings of Fact" document. MS used the browse

  32. Let the Monopoly Grow! by GISGEOLOGYGEEK · · Score: 4, Informative

    I wish MS would enter the fields of GIS / Mining / and CAD software.

    If the trend is true, then the days of spending anywhere from 4 to 80 THOUSAND dollars for a ONE seat license on these specialty softwares would end.

    You think the MS monopoly is bad? you pay nothing compared to what Autodesk, ESRI, and others charge.

    --
    George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
  33. Re:Of course this is true by IchBinEinPenguin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    prices aren't the only barrier to entry in a market.
    The word-processor market should be competition-friendly given the price of word, but it's not, given the lock-in achieved by the .doc format.
    Once you have a monopoly you can keep competition out using 'dirty tricks'. That's why monopolies are bad for consumers (after all, competition is suppsoed to be the cure-all for consumer satisfaction in capitalism), and that's why there are laws to curb monopolies.

  34. Linux would be even cheaper at $200 an hour by leonbrooks · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It takes half an hour to do an install of Mandrake Linux on modern hardware. Updates are set to happen on automatic, so zero time there. Presume you spend an hour every two years doing a distro upgrade. Mandrake Linux therefore costs you $100 up front and $100 a year.

    There is no virus scanner. We just saved 15 minutes downloading and installing it. Installing XP takes at least half an hour as well, so we're up to $100 plus the cost of XP plus $50 for the initial virus scanner download, plus anything we pay for the scanner.

    Additional software packages for Mandrake (or SuSE or Debian or Xandros or Ubuntu or... well, you get the idea) are a few clicks away rather than a major grovel around in cyberspace followed by DLL roulette. Presuming that you install either OpenOffice or MS-Office from CD and nothing else (unlikely), that's at least another 15 minutes ($50) down.

    The Mandrake Linux machine does not get compromised, mail out your documents all over the ether, or instill in the operator a terror of clicking on new mail or links. I don't know how to cost that. Maybe a major intrusion every two years, at one hour for a careful reinstall plus three hours to clean up and migrate stuff? Kiss another $800 goodbye, but how do you cost out fear and hesitancy? How do you cost out embarrassment over revealed secrets? Lost goodwill? Random crashes? Shrug. Too hard for me, let's ignore it.

    Anyway, we're up to $1000 plus the sticker price of software plus some difficult-to-quantify losses vs $300. The $1000+ install has access to a far wider range of software but it's harder to install and you have to pay for most of it. The $300 install has instant access to four thousand packages at no extra cost.

    And the harder you look at it, the worse it gets.

    For example, factor a Mac into the table, and even with higher hardware costs it might beat both other contenders in the long run (or maybe it'll only pound Microsoft into the financial sand), depending on how much use you make of Fink vs pay-for/black-box software.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
    1. Re:Linux would be even cheaper at $200 an hour by strider44 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Mandrake Linux machine does not get compromised, mail out your documents all over the ether, or instill in the operator a terror of clicking on new mail or links. I don't know how to cost that.

      Perhaps $2500 that was in my uncle's internet bill one month will suffice?

  35. The bakery example misses an importnant point by leonbrooks · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The monopoly also undermines the quality and the variety of the baking ecosystem, and killing off the local bakeries also kills of the local suppliers to those bakeries, diverting the demand to only distant bulk suppliers so it hits the whole economic ecosystem from keel to crowsnest.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  36. There is another aspect by einhverfr · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think that Microsoft *has* caused prices to go down dramatically to the point where the *only* viable competition can be open source. Here is my reasoning (I am a businessman, not an economist but the two have some overlap sometimes).

    When you develop proprietary software, you absorb the entire cost of R&D as well as marketing in advance, and then you sell licenses in order to make that money back, along with a profit margin. The actual boxed sets only cost a few dollars to produce, but the research and development is where the major costs are, and these dwarf the production costs pretty heavily.

    So, if you can sell twice as many of something than your competitor, you can actually sell the product at a lower cost than your competitor's break even point. I believe economists call this "economy of scale." You can even do this at the same that you use some of the profits to subsidize research and development of other projects. Whether this is predatory or not I will leave to lawyers and the courts (I suspect the answer is "it depends").

    Now, if you are a company which is smaller than MS, you cannot compete with Microsoft on the basis of volume. So Microsoft is able to develop (often better) software faster because they already have achieved scale in these markets. The other companies cannot compete and they slowly sink into obscurity (re: Corel, etc). Some of this may be predatory, and the rest is the fact of the market. So, the result is that you cannot beat Microsoft at their game if you play by their rules. They are bigger and they will *always* win because they can make money on a more marketable product at a lower price than you can.

    So, what about competition? Is there no hope? Actually there is. Open source actually is more efficient at spreading the development effort around so that needed features get added with less general expense. Therefore the pace of popular open source projects easily dwarfs Microsoft's, the total cost of ownership is lower, etc. Linux, OpenOffice, Mozilla, etc. actually beat Microsoft at their own game by reinventing the rules (which is what all successful businesses and projects do anyway). So open source will reduce costs even further to the point where Microsoft cannot be profitable and compete.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  37. Software prices vs. quality by solprovider · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Imagine if MSPaint didn't exist. Photoshop would cost even more!

    A free graphics editor (think the GIMP rather than MSPaint) allows/causes the professional quality software to have higher prices. When Photoshop is the only software available, Adobe has to choose between high prices or market penetration, and market penetration usually wins. Do you want 10 sales at $10,000, or 1,000,000 sales at $100? With some of the functionality available for free, Adobe has already lost most of the low end of the market, but potential customers needing more will pay more, resulting in higher prices.

    When Microsoft enters a market, they compete on price, because (until recently) they had little interest in profits from products other than MSWindows and MSOffice, but they had great interest in destroying competitors. They could not compete on functionality because their software is barely functional. The downside of MS entering a market is:
    1. A very poorly designed application from MS.
    2. Removal of competitors means there are fewer good applications.
    3. The quality of all software suffers.

    The other downside of their monopoly was many good ideas were discarded because they either:
    - competed with a MS product, or
    - MS could easily enter the market,
    so there was no chance of funding. MS proved this the only sane choice by destroying the existing software companies (Lotus, Ashton-Tate, WordPerfect, every other PC software company existing in the 1980s) and the few that tried anyway (Netscape, Real). Yes, I know those companies made mistakes, but who owns each of their markets today? Why isn't there any commercial competition? The only method to compete with MS is to give software away, and even then MS will do its best to conquer.

    I dislike the lack of alternatives. I dislike poorly designed software. MS's lowering prices is the cause of this, and should not be celebrated.

    --
    I spend my life entertaining my brain.
  38. well, yes, but... by idlake · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sure, Microsoft's entry into those markets caused prices to tumble: Microsoft knows how to undercut competitors. But those markets were ripe for the picking: some company would have entered them quickly.

    The problem is that with Microsoft's entry, prices have stopped falling. Microsofts undercuts competitors to drive them out of business, but once they have a monopoly, they hold prices constant or even raise them. It's standard monopoly behavior: first, you give up profit for acquiring the monopoly, then you reap your rewards many times over. Internationally, it's known as "dumping". While in the short term, it may cause prices to fall, it is not something that's good for customers.