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Taking My Freedom With Me to China?
Solo Han asks: "I'm considering a move to China next year, and while I have just as many problems as y'all do with the government, I still like the freedoms afforded me, especially when it comes to access of information. Chinese citizens, however, do not have the same freedoms, as we are constantly reminded here on slash-o-dot. Pr0n, mp3z, and games aside, what are the things that those of you in the Celestial Kingdom know you cannot access, and specifically, what are the websites, search engines, news sites, and other sites that are classed as potentially 'dangerous' material? This brings me to my overall question: is the censorship that real, that hard to get around, and how do you do it? What methods and technologies are you aware of or use to circumvent the Great Firewall of China?"
What methods and technologies are you aware of or use to circumvent the Great Firewall of China?
Somehow I don't think it's wise to do such circumvention if you want to stay there short-term/long-term/permanently.
What would US officials think if a foreigner, who is planning to move to USA, talks about how stupid the whole security thing is, and asks for advice to get around it?
If USA can attack another country "Just Like That"(tm), I would consider Chinese's censorship a godsend given it's only imposed within its own country. If you decided to move there, respect its laws; if you don't agree with its laws, go somewhere else. You always have a choice.
At home I have unlimited access to the internet, but at work I can only access port 80, and I would never try to get around company's security policy because it's restricting my freedom to surf, although others might still try that.
And remember, when you get caught, it's going to be ugly no matter where you are.
So in my opinion, if you want to go into other's territory, make sure you find out what can and cannot be done there, and stick to the rules.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
This may be obvious to most people (I sure have missed obvious things in the past), but some background as to why you're thinking of moving to China might put your question into proper context.
I'm a big tall mofo.
...they don't care. Nearly all of this censorship is only aimed at chinese citizens, and then only those that happen to be a convenient PR target. Unless you start actively trying to overthrow the government or anything daft like that, they're not interested.
So basically your question is stating "I'm going to China and expect to be able to break their laws as I was fortunate enough to be born in a more free society."
Don't whine to the foreign media when you're jailed as a subversive influence.
Trolling is a art,
Do you really want to consider "getting around" the censorship. It's not like they're playing a game over there. They're not setting up challenges for the techno-elite to figure out how to access Slashdot from being the Great Firewall of China. It's not like "Gosh, I can use a proxy! I can tunnel... they'll find this very clever and I'll be able to do whatever I want."
You'll be breaking the law.
In China.
Are you a big fan of breaking the law in general? Are you a big fan of spending days, weeks, or years in a Chinese political prison? Do you like having your legs unbroken?
I would highly recommend against going to China with a plan of "Getting around" the censhorship. It's not just a technological hurdle to overcome, it's the law. And as a general policy, you don't want to be breaking the law in foreign countries. Their jails aren't as nice as ours.
--
RumorsDaily
Maybe you can access a proxy and view through it?
That's what I did when I was on vacation in Communist Vietnam.
Problem is, I couldn't post anything on Slashdot because it disallows posting through proxies.
You can still read everything that's posted though.
Is the danger of getting around the censors worth it? Do you have a family? How do you feel about going to a Chinese prison?
I do not know what the legal climate in China is but you may want to think about about it very carefully. What risk will you be putting yourself and or your family if you get caught? It could be as little as a polite warning or getting run over by a tank.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I am concerned for your safet. I wouldn't recommend circumventing anything. When you live in a PoliceState (Communist or Fascist) a Western style prank like hacking will land you in prison for life. They will lock you in a room and throw away the room. If you want to read the news I recommend you move to a place with even a small bill of rights.
what are the things that those of you in the Celestial Kingdom know you cannot access, and specifically, what are the websites, search engines, news sites, and other sites that are classed as potentially 'dangerous' material?
If you even have to ask these questions, you're hopelessly naive, and will be eaten alive by the place to which you're headed. What, did you think that all that scary talk about being arrested and jailed for your opinions (or for even visiting web sites where you can read someone else's opinions) was just Republicans trying to make socialists look bad? It's real!
I'd be astounded if there's a single "legal" reader of this web site in China at all. Now, while it still lasts, you might consider moving to Taiwan.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
So the Chinese Army did not send in tanks to stop students protesting?
So those executions I saw where they had the people kneel and put a bullet in their brain never happened?
So there really is freedom of religion and speech in China?
So the Chinese government does not make huge amounts of money from prison labor?
And the Chinese did not lob missiles over an island full of people to keep them in line?
Just asking if these are all myths that I have seen on TV?
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
You are making the fundamental assumption that encryption is legal over there. I am not certain I would bet my freedom on that assumption, not in China. Even in the West, crypto regimes can range from non-existent to very strict (France used to be very strict, believe it or not).
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
leave a linux box at home . setup ssh or pptp and tunel into it , and then use squid on that box ....
easy ish ?
Type unto others as you would have them type unto you.
though I'm in the USA for the moment..
You probably will not notice a substantial abridgement of your freedoms when you get there. However, due to the developing nature of China, many processes are highly aggravating.
Sure, you cannot access porn online- as easily as in the USA. It is still there, and you can find it.
One thing that really has pissed me off was that I left my computer at home in the USA running a server registered with DynDNS- I'm guessing all the domains with DDNS are blocked by china. I justed wanted access to my own stuff at home, not to start an insurrection.
All I can say is, feel free to express yourself at the right time, but use discretion.
If you want access to all your files, buy a 1GB flashdrive and copy all your important stuff on to that. Buy 2 or 3 if you need, or take a laptop.
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
They are very unlikely to do this to a foreign citizen unless what you are doing is or can be construed to be espionage or subversion. They are welcoming foreigners with open arms because they want your capital, skills, knowledge etc. so they are less likely to come down on you than one of their own citizens.
If what you were doing was offensive enough to them and you got caught you would almost certainly be deported which is true of just about any country where you are on a visa. If you are openly violating their law there is always a chance you would go to jail but thats true of any country. The U.S. embassy probably would try to spring you unless you were getting what you deserved.
At this point I think its a subject of debate on whether the China or the U.S. is actually worse in this regard. Hundreds if not thousands of foreigners have been locked up in the U.S. in the aftermath of 9/11 without due process, without lawyers, without trials, without access to their families, and often under varying degrees of stress, sleep deprivation for example, if not rising to the level of torture. About the only thing many of them were guilty of are various visa infractions, which should at most have resulted in deportation, not indefinite detention without due process.
China probably does it on a larger scale but the U.S. and Americans no longer have the slightest morale high ground on which to challenge oppression and lawlessness in China. Certainly censorship isn't as bad in the U.S. but as far as unlawful arrests go the U.S. is at the same level as China. You can thank the Bush administration for lowering the U.S. to the same level has authoritarian states around the globe in this respect.
@de_machina
When you are in a foreign country you are subject to their laws; period.
Any exceptions to this are them being generous and choosing to make an exception for political reasons.
It really bothers me when I see people make claims that are untrue. "Unauthorized jailing of US Citizens". Generally there is no such thing, in some countries without a significant legal system it is possible. China does have a legal system. (Whether you like it, or not.)
Never enter a foreign country with the intent to violate it's laws. You are likely to find out the hardway there are repercussions and that your country of origin has no inherent right to intercede.
You might want to look into the incidences where U.S. law enforcement personnel have been arrested and thrown in jail for kidnapping offenses on Canadian soil. I can assure you the U.S. government wasn't thrilled with the outcome.
If I were you, I wouldn't particularly trust anything that comes out of Harvard University without verifiying it first. Truth is not their first objective.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
In many countries, the government also restricts access to some things, but it's very narrow and with at least some attempt at justifications (whether you agree with the justification or not). In fact, off the top of my head, the only thing I can think of that is really off-limits in the west is kiddie-porn (though Nazi stuff is also nearly as taboo in some parts of Europe).
Forget the details and look at the big picture: you're getting yourself into a situation where there is no social contract. The Chinese government doesn't feel the need to justify anything and is simply unaccountable to its people. The list of what is restricted can change, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. You can try technical workarounds, but you'll live in fear of being discovered.
Nothing is worth that.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Freedom is not an incompatable world view.
Democracy is not an incompatable world view.
Human rights are not an incompatable world view.
Equality under the law is not an incompatable world view.
All of these are basic rights for all human beings. The fact that the Communist government of China has refused to recognize them is not due to "an incompatable world view," its due to a small nomenklatura of Communist elites denying these rights to their people. The ideas themselves are no more alien to China than they were alien to Japan in 1945.
- Crow T. Trollbot
It seems to me very few of you have actually been to China or even understand how the system there works. For the same reason why Europeans think we're a country of hicks driving around in a pickup with shotguns who elected a idiot to office is why you think the Chinese is some sort of omni-present superpower that oversees all of the minute details of its citizens' lives and takes sadistic pleasure in torture. You're taking in media hype and a fear of the unknown. China has its share of problems: freedom of speech and freedom of religion come to mind. These are serious issues that need to be addressed but that doesn't mean everytime you commit a crime in China you will be sent into "reeducation." That also doesn't mean if you use a proxy to surf the web that they're going to break your thumbs. The Chinese government are too busy with the same serious issues that the US is dealing with to be bothered by these minor offenses.
While it may sound like the Chinese police force operate a Gestapo-like regime but that's far from the truth. Believe or not, China has laws and 99% of the time, they are followed. They also have lawyers that will free an innocent man. Some people vision of a totalitarian society governed by "The Party" are just too far fetched. Do they honestly think that the police operate on whatever laws they please and the people live in constant fear? I'll tell you from actually lived in China that it is hardly the case. People are way too reoccupied w/ making money to give a shit. Just remember the same media that is telling you to be afraid of China is the same one that ran the special on 20/20 about the wide-spread dangers of drier lint fires and the world-wide SARS epedemic.
Or like the russian guy who brought his Adobe E-Book cracking software to a security conference in the US and got locked up for it.
"George W. Bush The Great Divider"
Whatduyoumean?
Bush was the first man in all history to unite the Shiite and Suni groups in Iraq by providing them something to rally against. For that accomplishment alone, he deserves to be called the greatest uniting force in the mideast.
We (rightly) put down rebellions within our borders(cf. the Civil War). They are terrorism. It doesn't matter how political they are; actually, being especially political means you are committing treason and not just causing destruction.
The civil war was 150 years ago. Today, when there are protestors, we let them have at it, and mostly just watch until the destruction is over. If the police overstep their roles or break the law they put on trial, fined, or fired.
We execute lots of people. Why is it so important that they use cheap bullets rather than expensive injections?
We execute a relative few. In the whole country somewhere between 200 and 300 people per year. The average stay on death row is between 5 and 10 years. The average death row inmate has had between 3 and 5 lawyers. The average death row inmmate has been in court and in front of a judge at least 6 times. None of these things is true about China. It has nothing to do with the cost of the bullet. It has everything to do with the process. China hems and haws about even disclosing how many people it executes. There is no presumption of innocence. There is no right to appeal. No right to seek a pardon.
You can't joke about killing the President
You can in fact joke about killing the President. You cannot enter into a conspiracy to kill the President (or anyone). You cannot solicit people to kill the the President (or anyone). You cannot ask that another person should kill a person. If you do make statemnets amount about the President and killing him you likely will get investigated by the Secret Service to determine if you have entered into a plot to kill the President. If you haven't then nothing happens. You can say anything about Scientology. You cannot republish copyright protected documents without permission. If you do, you may be sued and/or receive a letter from an attorney
We dropped two nukes on two cities, something nobody else has done, to keep the rest of the WORLD in line; and have waged war since.
No, we dropped two nukes for the explict purpose of defeating Japan. Even after the first they did not surrender. Hence the second. We showed restrainant when others would have shown known. After World War II we had the most powerful military in the history of the world. We had the most power economy in the history of the world. Our economic engine was producing war time goods at a rate that all the nations of the world combined could not match our power. We could have dominated the world, and who would have opposed us? The peasantry of China? The ruins that once were great nations in Europe? The decimated demoralized Soviets? In 1945 we could have rolled over the world, dominating and taking anything we wanted. There were no limits to the power we could project. Europe, Africa, Asia - even China would be fall to their knees in realization of American power. Yet we did not puruse that course. We rebuilt Germany. We brought democracy to Japan. We liberated and left France. We helped our sworn enemies. We established a home land in the middle east for the Jews out of compassion and remorse for a crime we did not commit.
I love America. And I've spent my life loving America. I'll never deny our collective mistakes but I will certainly not equate them to the routine barbary that is found so often and with such foulness across the world. America has its many problems. America is flawed, and growing more so. But it will be a cold day in hell when you can equte America with communist China.
The fact remains that the Bill of Rights - even in its decaying form - offers more protection, more glorious freedom, more liberty than most people of the world dare to aspire to obtain.
Yeah because we all know Republicans are bigots, right?
I don't recall mentioning Democats, Republicans or any other politcal party in my original post. I was pointing out that our country has also had it's problems with civil liberties in the past. Perhaps you have a guilty concious. Some of that White Christian guilt?
How many Republican KKK members have you heard of? I'd dare say little to none
Ummmmm David Duke is Republican and also a grand wizard. The roles have reversed in this country. The Democrats were once the party of racists. The Democrats are now more tolerant of peoples race. This is also reflected in the switch in the deep south from Democrat to Republican. Yep the south is racist. Remember the segregated prom in Georgia last year?
Get your facts straight before calling some one an idiot..... idiot.
Truth, oddly enough, is also in the eye of the beholder.
Machine9dotNet
Business as usual on planet earth.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
No, but you can buy a lawyer. Which, from your standpoint, is pretty much the same thing as bribery...let me pay a bunch of money and make this problem go away. If your case in China was too high-profile for the cops to ignore, I'm sure the purchase of the lawyer with the best guanxi would help you to at least escape the country.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Do quite the opposite of a Boycott. Right now the Chinese is caught in a catch-22. They want to maintain their totalirian control over society yet desire more then anything the Almighty Dollar. However, our economy REQUIRES financial freedom. You think those that become millionaires from paupers in China won't demand more and more control over the government? It's Happening but it's happening slowly. I'm personally cautiously optimistic about China. Yet, I woouldn't consider moving anytime soon.
As you said there is not a one to one mach for any of them.
Look at the posts.
The first one is critical of the reduction of US civil liberties after 9/11. Okay so this is the same as sending in tanks to stop protesters? Plus it is "critical" of government policy! Try that in China.
The next one has this line in it "Ross, a convicted serial murderer who has admitted killing eight women in the 1980s, says he wants to waive his appeals and die". How is this even close to killing someone for protesting? How long has his case been going through the system? How many checks and balances? I want to see the my nation stop capital punishment. If I was Chinese could I say that on a public forum?
Your next link is critical of reductions in personal freedom since 9/11. Notice that it is critical of them plus no of the examples of abuses are running students over with tanks for protesting.
You next one on freedom of speech totally a none issue. A company stopped hosting a website. Not the government but a private company. Get a new hosting company. For all we know they did not pay there bill.
The link on making money on prisoners. This is critical of some local cities for seeing prisons as a source of jobs. You know construction, catering, and staff. Not using prisoners for slave labor. No shade here.
Finally the last link. Again it is critical of US policy. It talks about problems the US is having gathering information in Afghanistan. From you link "The experiences of Shamsulrachman, the villager in Sawai, suggest differences in treatment. He says marines searched his house recently and found nothing. But when they discovered a shell casing outside of a neighbor's house that he says dated from the Soviet era, they told him they were going to arrest him. He says the Marines were civil,"
I do not see any match here.
Your last link... Could you have a page like that in China?
The original post was that China is not as bad as you think and the media over states the problems.
Of course the US is not perfect, no country is. Where are you on the whole safer and free? Your post pretty much proves my point.
Is the US perfect? You do not think so? Lets talk about it. Let's try and improve things. Hey we could try and let others know about the things we feel need changing.
Is China perfect..... Let's just say that it is. The is for the best.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Tibet was conquered fair and square by China.
Drawing that sort of analogy opens up the possibility of criticizing the states for continuing to hold on to the south, or the UK and Scotland, or Israel and the entire nation of Israel, et cetera.
Forced labour camps?
Who makes the liscence plates in new hamshire? Prisoners.
Fix your yard before telling your neighbor to mow his.
Witness our current shining success in Iraq.
There are very few things you can shove down a person's throat without making them angry. You might gratefully accept chocolate if I offered it to you, but I bet you'd struggle like mad if I tried to shove it down your throat.
The analogy goes farther than you expect.
How about helping those that want to break the yoke but can't.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
These are the Americans who voted for Bush, who can't see the problems with the Patriot Act or the war on Iraq,
Bush or Kerry or Clinton or Gore or whoever...it's not the nature of a candidate or party to erode freedoms. It's the nature of government to erode freedoms. It's been this way since the dawn of history.
Whoever we elect may be great for a year or so...but give 'em time. This really isn't a partisan or politicial issue.
IMHO, once we got addicted to the 'free' cash of entitlements, we pretty much ensured that people would be too distracted to care about freedom. Americans these days don't think about free-DOM as much as 'free' prescription medicine, 'free' retirement, 'free' education....etc. Don't believe me? Compare the upcoming brouhaha over social security to the debate over patriot act renewal. See which one people care about more.
No matter what the topic, it can always be turned into an Iraq bitchfest.
The difference is this: in the United States, prison labor may only be used to produce goods and services for the state. It is illegal for prison-produced goods to compete on the open market and it is illegal for prisons to profit off anyone but other governmental agencies.
For instance, if you're a government executive and the government gives you an allowance with which to outfit your office, you can buy desks for a song. Prisons who teach woodworking as a trade skill offer some beautifully-made things for under $100. They can do this because their labor costs are pretty much nothing. However, the prison can only sell it to other branches of the government--you won't find them for sale in the prison gift shop.
Prison labor is also used to clean up roadways; to dig firebreaks in areas where forest fires are a concern; to make license plates; etc.
I'm not offended by manual labor in the service of the state being a criminal punishment. I'm offended by the idea of convicts being used to make their wardens and jailers independently wealthy, which is precisely what happens in China.
Before you go about preaching there's no difference between what we do and what they do, you may wish to learn what the difference is.
It is ironic that the lead article is about censorship in China. Chinese censorship is clumsy and ineffectual compared to the advanced spin and propaganda in the USA. This is why most US citizens think America is a positive force in the world, and are completely baffled when the rest of the world resents and distrusts them. Of course, nobody likes to be told they've been accepting lies. Most US citizens will be feeling very defensive and will vehemently deny that they could be influenced by propaganda. Everyone thinks its something that can only happen to someone else. That is one of the reasons it is so cuccessful.
Outside the USA, it is well known that the USA supplied Iraq with biological and chemical weapons. Its not even controversial. Its just one in a long list of disgusting behaviours the USA has done and is doing. It was based on the 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' logic. Hussein was supposed to use these weapons to win the war against Iran.
Funnily enough, the reason the Bush government was so confident that they'd find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is because they know he had them because they sold them to him!
> The CDC wouldn't have been involved if the request wasn't > made under the guise of medical research.
I'm not sure if that is your personal theory, or if that comes from some actual propaganda. Either way, it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Medical research on Anthrax? At the request of a known dictatorship, currently at war? Gimme a break!
Which nations do you trust to use nuclear weapons responsibly?
Except when there's a terrorist attack. Or something else that makes it onto the TV and can cause people to panic.
Bzzt, wrong. Google search next time, you won't look so dumb in public.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
No, it's not OK now. The world is a patchwork of territories, with every one of the major players having claims all over. When the western world became "civilized" (debatable), the territories were left as-is. The Brits have the Falkland Islands, the US has Pear Harbour and Guantanamo Bay (another wierd one) and so on.
Democracy in it's current incarnation is a farce. Do you really believe that if the residents of a country wanted independance they'd get it? Bear in mind I'm sitting in Scotland here, where a large percentage of the population wants it, but there ain't gonna be a vote on it. Over the water from me, Northern Ireland has been contested over by terrorist groups (funded from the US ironically) for decades, and it's not worked for them. On the other hand, we have Yugoslavia, where a bloody civil war got nations their independance.
The only peacefull change that springs to mind was the UK's hand-over to China recently. The whole independance giving (which China ain't!) thing isn't all that popular.
Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's status only came into question in the last fifty, thanks to the involvement of the CIA, during the cold war. Remember that? Lot's other places were contested over.
The fact is that I don't have a clue about whether the Tibetans want independance. But I'm not going to blindly believe the usual anti-communist crap that the US has been spilling for years.
A weapon? How about a tool or a work of art?
Mailing a knife (at least within the US) isn't very difficult at all. I personally would prefer it stay that way even though there are some really screwed up people who would love to tell me what I am and am not allowed to do.
Mailing a knife hurts noone. That knife is harmless in a box being transported from one place to another.
A bomb is a different story.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.