Slashdot Mirror


A House Divided: UWB's Double Standards

Mai writes "What happens when two coalitions within a standard come into conflict, and it doesn't get resolved quickly? The ultrawideband technology standard shows you."

26 of 95 comments (clear)

  1. Answer to the question... by testing124 · · Score: 5, Funny

    DVD+/-RW happens.

    --
    Karma: bad (mostly unaffected by funny mods)
    1. Re:Answer to the question... by Gherald · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't forget Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD.

  2. A fight to the death? by eln · · Score: 5, Funny

    Is that the answer? Because let me tell you, a bunch of geeks in a hand-to-hand fight to the death would kick ass. Pay per view ratings would be through the roof!

    1. Re:A fight to the death? by conteXXt · · Score: 2, Funny

      For the entire month that it took for the first 2 emaciated gray(grey?)/green pair to finish each other off.

      and afer that it would be a Unionized sport (a la NHL)

      Better than The Apprentice bar far...

      --
      The truth about Led Zep should never be told on /. (Karma suicide ensues)
    2. Re:A fight to the death? by ikkonoishi · · Score: 2, Funny

      What is geeky about that?

      All geek disputes should be solved by a mix of junkyard wars and D&D.

      In the junkyard wars both teams are given a pile of old computer parts and outdated software. Then both teams must assemble their own server with the resources they can scrounge up. The two servers then attempt to hack each other into exploding. (Well really just to shutting down, but the computers are rigged to blow when they do so without the player's knowledge)

      Afterwards the two teams meet for a game of D&D. They flip a coin to determine who gets to play the evil team, and then have 2 hours to make up their characters. The characters are given points on backstory, and then are forced to battle each other to the death. The winners get a number of points, but more points are also given for roleplaying their characters well.

      May the best geek win!

  3. We're Not Sure... by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Funny

    We don't have all the answers, but we know it involves executives from Intel and Motorola sticking their hands up the FTC and ITU commissioners' asses and some sort of sock-puppet Kabuki theatre.

  4. Of course it's divided. by FireballX301 · · Score: 4, Funny

    It was considered a military secret early on, because it has applications such as "spotting stealth planes" and "looking through walls."

    They can't decide which.

  5. Why wait? by Spazmania · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If we'd waited for standardization for 56k modems, we'd have waited an extra three years. Instead we had x2 and k56 flex for a little while. Was that a bad thing? No, not really. It took the pressure off the final v.90 standard, so they could take the time and get it right.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Why wait? by eln · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Trust me, as someone who was working for an ISP that chose the k56 flex standard, it was a very very bad thing. Our tech support calls went through the roof, because k56 flex never really worked right. Those were the days when every ISP out there had these big books of modem init strings that they had to use on (it seemed) every other call. Let me tell you, trying 15 different init strings with people who only had one phone line in their house was no picnic. While the rush to 56k may have been good for the industry, it sure sucked for those of us working in the trenches at the time.

    2. Re:Why wait? by outZider · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know, with good equipment, it wasn't so bad. We kept two numbers. One was for the V.90 bank, one was for the k56flex bank. While the main bank was more reliable for those in the boonies, and went to V.90 fairly well, the k56flex never really failed us, and generally had fantastic speed and reliability for those with semi-modern lines.

      --
      - oZ
      // i am here.
  6. Hideous flashback... by grub · · Score: 5, Funny


    "ultrawideband" made me think of my ex-wife's ass.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:Hideous flashback... by hobbesx · · Score: 5, Funny
      "ultrawideband" made me think of my ex-wife's ass.


      So, you had competing standards, and it saw lots of bandwidth?

      --
      This rating is Unfair ( ) ( ) Fair (*) Funny
      Sigh... If only. Modding would be so much more fun.
  7. Standards? by TubaJon · · Score: 5, Funny

    Double standards...It's like when me and a friend turn in the exact same homework, and he gets an A+ while I get a B-.

    --
    "The Matrix has you."
    1. Re:Standards? by Danimoth · · Score: 2, Funny

      Thats because both papers had the same name on them.

      --
      No smoking sigs indoors.
  8. Implications for SETI? by SpamJunkie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the article:

    a signal spread out so broadly that it just looks like background noise if you aren't the one it's aimed at.

    Would pose a problem for SETI if this is what all the other intelligent civilizations are doing.

    1. Re:Implications for SETI? by tetromino · · Score: 5, Insightful

      a signal spread out so broadly that it just looks like background noise if you aren't the one it's aimed at.

      Would pose a problem for SETI if this is what all the other intelligent civilizations are doing.


      If SETI can detect any sign of an alien DVD player communicating with an alien TV set on Tau Ceti, I would guess that SETI is using a time machine to import radio telescopes from AD 2500 (in which case, they might as well be importing hyperspace drives).

      Seriosly though, high-power, unfocused, inefficient and uncompressed radio signals - the sort of thing SETI might be able to detect - are on the way out. Nowadays, signals travel over cables, or bounce from sattelites, and in any case use compression techniques that make the signal totally useless unless you know the protocol spec.

      Perhaps the best sign of a high-technology civilization that we can detect is a planet that suddenly emits a burst of gamma rays and then stops emitting any signals forever...

  9. Broken standards by phorm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because when a standard does come up, it might be broken. Standards often deal with legalities... so shipping a product that doesn't meet standards may in fact break some laws in various countries. I think this quote summarizes it well enough:

    What good does it do you to have a cell phone and a PDA that can exchange data, if they are required by law to be powered off the moment you leave the country? For that matter, this also increases manufacturing costs, and thus consumer costs, decreasing sales.

  10. wikipedia article on OFDM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OFDM

    After reading this, it seems pretty clear that Motorola backs cdma-based solution just because it has already invested huge amounts in (w)cdma-based technologies, already having lots of patents giving it more royalties, not because of it's technological merits.

    1. Re:wikipedia article on OFDM by pslam · · Score: 3, Informative
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OFDM

      After reading this, it seems pretty clear that Motorola backs cdma-based solution just because it has already invested huge amounts in (w)cdma-based technologies, already having lots of patents giving it more royalties, not because of it's technological merits.

      The so-called Multiband OFDM Alliance appears to be rather counter to the whole point of OFDM. OFDM is extremely efficient with the frequency band it has to fit in, and doesn't need to be blasted over the whole spectrum to achieve high data rates. There are gigabit wireless networks already in the works (and an ITU standard), aimed as an upgrade to the existing 802.11 stuff.

      Plain ordinary OFDM/COFDM is here today - it actually works right now, is in wide spread consumer use, and doesn't mess up band allocation like UWB does. You're right in that the only reason UWB is being proposed is to support a patent regime centered around Intel and the deceptive scumbags at Time Domain (UWB is not a magic system which uses no spectrum - it uses all of it and spectrum allocation is there for a good reason). I'm pretty sure OFDM will have data rates far exceeding even the theoretical maximums of UWB, far before UWB oozes out of the lab and into the unfortunate consumers' hands.

      You should see how little code (relatively speaking) it takes to decode (and encode!) OFDM, and how little spectrum you need.

  11. Two coalitions enter! One coalition leaves! by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 4, Funny
    What happens when two coalitions within a standard come into conflict, and it doesn't get resolved quickly?

    Bloodshed? Radiological bombs? Thunderdome? Dogs and cat sleeping together? Befuddled Slashdot posts? Snow in California? More Star Wars prequels? The Battle Of Hastings? The Magna Carta? The Cotton Gin? I dunno, man! I wasn't expecting a quiz! You're harshing my buzz!

    --
    --- Ban humanity.
  12. That's what you get. by Dylan+Thomas · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That's what you get when you put the standard before the technology. Step one: let companies use whatever standard is convenient for them, and sell their products to whomever they can convince to buy. Step two: once the market has tested the products, standardize based on best current practices.

    Sure, it has the net result of lots of poor guys owning a collection of relatively useless Betamax videos, but really, I'd rather own an obsolete product because it made its best shot and failed than own a mediocre product because it conformed to a political compromise that had no market time behind it. (And furthermore, it encourages the Betamax owners to switch to DVD more quickly than the content and universally supported VHS owners, thereby even further spurring development.)

    For real life examples, read some W3C Recommendations. The ones that were presented as ready-made standards before any market was actually implementing them (like PICS) are lovely pieces of technological poetry. The ones which were widely tested in the market and implemented first, even if in lots of non-compatible subversions, and only then standardized (like HTML), on the other hand, are actually used.

    --
    What he wants is more important that what I want. What he wants is also more important that what you want.
    1. Re:That's what you get. by beaststwo · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Ditto for stuff like those Belkin "pre-standard" 802.11n access-points. Non-techie users will buy them now, not understanding that they may/may not be upgradable to the standard and if they're not upgradable, Belkin has no responsibility to the customer for having sold a now useless product.

      So we wind up paying, sometimes over and over, so companies can fight it out in the marketplace. The marketplace is indeed an efficient means of sorting out winning from losing ideas and marketing schemes, but it often makes losers out of consumers.

  13. watch UWB very closely by poincare · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's a book titled "In the Blink of an Eye," which details the Cambrian ecological explosion, which was precipitated, by (you guessed it), the emergence of vision among vertebrates. I expect a similar explosion for machines. In the modern era, we have rather well advanced robots, in terms of data sensing and actuators, but really crappy AI and control. The availability of decent remote control requires wireless video (who want's a robot attached to the wall?). UWB (or perhaps one of its successors) will make robotitcs fessible. With the coming shrinking of the labor pool due to the baby boomers retirement, there will be a demand for labor-saving technology, a void which robotics will be poised to fill.

  14. I'm with Motorola on this one by ka9dgx · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Based on the article alone, and on purely religious grounds, I'm with Motorola on this one. The whole point of UWB is to have a very wideband signal, so that you don't have to get into issues of having to avoid frequency X, Y, or Z.

    Once you start talking about frequencies, and channels, you might as well give up the game.

    --Mike--

  15. No split, actually by Joseph_Daniel_Zukige · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you dig far enough back in the history of this, there were quite a few different approaches. About four years back, there were four main groups. iNTEL figured they had to lay their stake early, so they tried to muscle the other three out. eXtreme Spectrum had almost enough horsepower in their design to survive iNTEL's tactics, but finally had to turn to Motorola to bail them out.

    Why Motorola? Good question. Many of the core group at eXtreme Spectrum had just been laid off from Motorola, or had jumped before the layoffs.

    Why does iNTEL want this?

    This short-distance UWB is potentially going to replace all the wires on your information devices except for the power wires. If you were into patents, wouldn't you like a patent on wire? ("Patent on wire" was something of a buzz phrase during the infighting.)

    (Personally, I'm wondering if the XS/Freescale technique techniqe might be beneficial in power wires, but I don't know what I'm talking about.)

    If you ask me, though, iNTEL's idea of jumping from spectrum to spectrum seems to have the larger footprint, the higher susceptibility to eavesdripping and being dripped on, and the greater power requirements. It might scale to greater distance, but that might not be desirable for short-distance, high-bandwidth wireless.

    The XS/Freescale approach of basically spitting raw bits into the air at pseudo-random frequencies and very low power should be familiar with a crowd that understands crypto. You remember the story about the actress and the piano player and an early patent in the field.

    But, again, I don't know what I'm talking about, so my biases might be showing.

  16. This is actually very common in standardisation by jodonoghue · · Score: 3, Informative

    Frankly, this is no surprise to those of us who have seen the standardisation process at work for a number of years. I work in mobile telecomms, so no surprise if I take my examples from there:

    • IMT2000 (which was supposed to choose one 'World' standard fro 3G phones) ended up choosing three (UMTS, CDMA2000 and FOMA) as the Europeans, Americans and Japanese couldn't agree)
    • UMTS has two completely different modes: TDD and FDD, because powerful interests in the GSM industry couldn't agree on which to choose.
    • The 3GPP standards are full of redundant mechanisms which are supposed to be mandatory, but are unnecessary.

    I could go on, but...

    Thing is, you have to look at what standardisation represents to the participants. It's an opportunity to gain licensing revenue from your patent portfolio, so you need to get as much of your IPR into the standard as possible.

    To do this, companies often make short-term alliances (i.e., I'll vote for this technology of yours if you vote for these technologies of mine) as a means to push the process in a preferred direction.

    In the case of UWB, there are two groups of companies each (probably) with significant IPR in one of the two technologies, so who stand to gain big bucks if their preferred solution is chosen. Each group is powerful enough to block the other, but not powerful enough to prevail. After a period of deadlock, this is the only real way out.

    You can't even make a purely technical argument for one or other technology. OFDMA is slightly more spectrally efficient than CDMA (with the emphasis on 'slightly'), but seems better suited to 'broadcast' style applications than to 'many bidirectional paths' of communication. The differences are small, but each side can claim that they are 'right'.

    As other psoters have suggested, the market will decide. The UMTS TDD mode I mentioned earlier is virtually unheard of in the marketplace: all of the major UMTS systems use WCDMA (although many of the ideas in TDD have surfaced in the Chinese TD-SCDMA standard - no surprise as Siemens was a major backer of UMTS TDD, and is now doing R&D in China for a system using similar technology).

    If you remember that standardisation is politics, with interoperability as both the price and outcome of the political process, then you won't be far wrong.