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Mozilla Chairman Speaks on Open Source/Microsoft
ChrisMDP writes "Tom's Hardware has an interesting interview with Mitch Kapor, the chairman of the Mozilla Foundation. They discuss, amongst other things, what it's like competing with Microsoft, and Firefox as an operating system." From the interview: "Pragmatically, I think we have to distinguish between a base set of extensions and everything else. It gets progressively more difficult to create seamless solutions when there are nearly infinite possibilities for customization and tweaking of settings. There's a basic tension in principle that can never be completely resolved."
He talks about it taking just a "few clicks" to get Flash, RP, and other plugins working. Obviously he's not talking about Firefox on Linux. Flash, sure. It's probably the single easiest plugin to get to work. Most other plugins cannot be installed with the "follow this link to install the plugin" option at all. If they do manage to install, they don't seem to be able to find your plugins directory. Don't get me wrong, I love Firefox (though those 1-2 second pauses are annoying) but there needs to be some type of search in the installer to find the plugins directories. Couple that with Real Player unable to give me video on half of the Real Player content I find and you wonder what's going on. Though, that wouldn't be a Firefox issue, I know.
Owwch.
"and Firefox as an operating system."
Doesn't Mitch know that it's almost exactly that statement that caused Microsoft to launch its slaughterfest against Netscape when Marc Andreesen said it?
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Now give me a ide and some documentation so that I can create xul apps. The biggest push should be to get a xul ide together to help extend and push the platform. I don't care if it is written in xul or python or whatever, don't point me to xul maker either it looks like ass and is being developed way to slowly. I love firefox now make it damn easy for me to build cool xul apps.
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You make it sound like zealtry is bad.
Did non zealots free us from Britain?
Did non zealots abolish slavery?
Did non zealots send us to the moon?
Did non zealots give us the GPL?
I believe those who bash "zealots" are simply saddened by their own inability to have passion and mindlessly lash out at those who can.
That's particularly true for a light-weight browser as Firefox.
I don't know what exactly is your criteria for calling a browser a light-weight, but as for the memory footprint firefox is surprisingly similar to IE
The following statement is true
The preceding statement is false
That said, wouldn't it be better if Firefox came bundled with a Flash player, etc., or its installer detected a need for customary extensions and could install at the same time? There's no technical reason why it couldn't happen.
please, leave it on a menu somewhere and off by default, I don't even want a flash player auto-compiled in the package or downloaded during browser install unless I ask it to.
thanks
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Don't forget that Mozilla is descended from Netscape, and is anything but a "me too" IE clone.
If Firefox were reverse engineered from IE, we wouldn't be using it.
I have noticed that the teacher's computers where I am attending are loaded with spyware. They were all using Internet Explorer. A few switched over to Firefox right after I told them MSIE lets spyware in. But most couldn't care less. Finally, I found something that is getting the others to switch over. I ask them "Would you use a web browser created by a convicted monopolist?" They always say "No." Then I tell them they are using one (Internet Explorer). This gets there interest and then I get them to download and switch over to Firefox.
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It's called ignorance, reinforced by intellectual laziness. Any US citizen (I am one) who has worked in IT support (I have) knows this. No one is worse on this score than business users (I am one, and a CPA to boot). Whenever we talk IT (not often, as I have a bad habit of telling people how bad M$ is, and getting rather hot about it) it amazes me how much business users I deal with do not care in the slightest about the very infrastructure that makes their jobs possible - or, frequently, impossible. One of the biggest problems I see EVERY DAY is the perception by senior management that their IT 'investment' in proprietary software is too big to lose. They know what a sunk cost is, but to suggest that their annual Oracle fees are somehow throwing $ away is heresy. This prevents them from ever doing a decent cost-benefit of using OS tools and products and investing in support and development instead of licensing. The difference is most seen in IT support - who spends their time waiting for the provider to send patches for stuff they can't fix, versus actually fixing stuff.
They call it 'focusing on their core competencies' i.e., they aren't in the 'software business' - I call it, ignoring a better, more efficient way to do your job by controlling your process, but hey, I'm a cubicle monkey, what do I know.
This disgusting phenomenon leaves lots of room for innovation by those smart enough who 'get it', who can quell their nausea long enough to work in the busness sector. Me, I bought a cat and kick it every night when I get home from work, whilst coding and crafting my escape. (kidding, about the cat, BTW cat lovers!)
As the old saying goes, if you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door. Evangelize about OS all you like - but until someone evangelizes how much money they make with a solution they developed, perceptions will not change. Those of use working on better mousetraps, and there are many more sucessful than I (I still have a day job) won't likely yell too much - I'd rather get a good service business going, with quality software built my way, and then eat my large, lumbering, ignorant corporate competitors lunches for them BEFORE they figure this out.
My $.02.
*sigh* You know, maybe people are just creatures of habit. Just because they are doesn't mean they're stupid. I tried getting my mother to switch to firefox. She honestly tried it for a few days and said, "meh, it's not worth learning something new when the old thing works just fine for me." Ok, that's fair. While they're not radically different in UI terms, as far as setting preferences, managing downloads and such, they're worlds apart. (I think firefox is easier to set preferences in - except for the ones you can only get to with about:config).
But, I'm not going to say she's stupid. So the best thing I can do as a conscientious son is to make sure she knows safe browsing habits and keeps her computer up to date. For a 45 year old woman who'd never used a computer until about two years ago, her ability to spot something that isn't right is remarkable. She's never had a virus or spyware.
Now if I could just get her to stop asking if I'm there when she gets my voicemail, I'd be set.
ok, who in their right mind would ever go to msn.com with firefox - except those who set it as their default browser in windows (like myself) and actually click on some link which takes them to msn (beats the hell out of me what that link should be and where i could get it from).
It really depends on the community where the people come from. Think of a person who uses linux exclusively and tell me how/why the hell he's going to go to msn.com ?
I mean, bullshit. Give me some useful statistics, the one from google is the one i'dd like to see, or some other page which doesnt have a minority of a minority of users visiting them.
Hell, slashdot for all i care.
before i start my argument, here's my disclaimer: .
- i use firefox for all my browsing needs, on both linux and windows, been using firefox since it was in all its previous avatars - firebird, phoenix, mozilla, netscape...yawn, and the umpteen names. happy the way it handles things.
- i switched from thunderbird to opera 'cos thunderbird doesnt have a decent mbox import utility, and although complicated - opera mail is really cool - with plenty of shortkeyys to work with.
- i have a relatively decent config - amd 64 3000+, asus k8n, 512mb pc3200 ddr, geforce 2 gfx, soundblaster, 160 gb sata hdd - so its not like the machine might be an impediment for smooth running of firefox
------------------------here goes----------
- i have praised firefox enough to many people, i have evangelised firefox in browsing centres, replaced IE on many desktops at my friends and relatives' place. so why always, only talk good about firefox? there should be a fair share of critical reviews too! i have a few grouses to air, although, this is not the firefox forum.
1. the extensions management is really bad in firefox, i have been persistently having troubles with management of extensions - some of them refuse to get installed. changing versions - the plugins do not work on upgrading to the latest and the greatest release. the plugin/ extension writers are way too slow many times to upgrade. question of holes left by the extensions - lack of validity/ checks on the third party extensions. the recent inclusion of auto extension updation doesnt always work
2. bookmarks - why does the bookmark disappear when the browser crashes occasionally ? this is really hopeless. yes, i know there's an extension to fix it , bookmark backup - but why isnt it built in ? while browsing with multiple tabs, sometimes, the bookmarks in the toolbar act strange, and loads in a corner. the bookmark bugs have made many people go back to IE or switch to opera.
3. java is a pain - as it loads - is persistent. sometimes an impediment while opening multiple tabs. slows down the whole experience. the cache is like a giant leak. as you adblock many ads along the way - after a period the ad block management gets heavier, and confused sort of. (not really a firefox's fault)
these three have been a thorn in the flesh since ages. i will not be switching to any other browser, but its like - firefox isnt the undisputed king, nor is it enough to wish IE away. i hope that firefox writers will concentrate on fixing the issues - small number of manageable extensions, better plugin management, it has to be consistent even with point releases - apparently a large part of thier user-base - i am sure is an "intelligent" user - who upgrades with every point release - as shown by the large number of people who upgraded from preview release to final release. i hope mitch is listening!
You do have a point. But the business world is also a form of meritocracy. It is just that /. geeks consider intelligence, consideration and community spirit worth merit.
The business world considers power, money and market share worth merit.
That is why meritocracies are flawed systems.
Who ends up with control all depends on who determines what is worth merit.
watashi wa bengoshi dewa arimasen!
I'd be inclined to agree as well. Stats come from my own site, linked up above below my name. Note that my audience is far from being a tech-savvy crowd for the most part.
Browser / Total Uniques / Browser Percentage
Dec. 2004
MS Internet Explorer 5804579 80.7%
Firefox 682022 9.4%
Unknown 314979 4.3%
Opera 102336 1.4%
Netscape 101781 1.4%
Mozilla 100551 1.3%
Safari 74319 1%
Konqueror 4194 0%
Firebird (Old Firefox) 1792 0%
Phoenix 1419 0%
Others 3177 0%
Jan. 2005
MS Internet Explorer 5461478 79.8%
Firefox 716106 10.4%
Unknown 269946 3.9%
Opera 108339 1.5%
Mozilla 101918 1.4%
Netscape 94016 1.3%
Safari 73714 1%
Konqueror 6146 0%
Firebird (Old Firefox) 1769 0%
Lynx 1052 0%
Others 3040 0%
Feb. 2005
MS Internet Explorer 3527555 76.7%
Firefox 571325 12.4%
Unknown 231353 5%
Netscape 77205 1.6%
Opera 68264 1.4%
Mozilla 66347 1.4%
Safari 43025 0.9%
Konqueror 9937 0.2%
Firebird (Old Firefox) 1357 0%
Camino 637 0%
Others 1941 0%
Hmm. How bloated a system is, is also down to the user. In the case of a Debian installation (as an example of a modular distro, other examples are Slackware, Gentoo and the like), you can have a base installation and any number of combinations of software on top of that. What you install is totally up to you... In the case of windows however, you're screwed either way.
Million dollar sig.
I see this atrophic concept of Market and Share coming up again and again, let's break it down shall we?
The word marketshare doesn't exist, though lately (interestingly enough) has been in wide circulation regardless.
People seem to forget this marketshare was once comprised of two words, Market and Share.
The first word 'Market' signifies an environment predisposed to maximal choice for the benefit of consumers, and also for the vendors who enjoy a large turnout on market day. M$'s concept of Market would be like going to buy fruit and vegetables on market day to find only one vendor. Disturbingly the previous vendors now all seem to be stacking shelves and helping you put fruit in bags..
The second word here is 'Share'. In the context of Market Share is perhaps best considered as the verb to share. 'To share' implicitly means 'to distribute ownership of - to partake, enjoy or suffer with others'. This word 'share' M$ simply has no concept of - except of course in the context of 'shares' (distributed ownership of the company not the market).
M$ doesn't seek Market Share, perhaps they seek this new thing called 'Marketshare' i'm not sure. One thing certain is that they seek 'Monopoly', the word I think the parent's author was looking for. Monopoly is also made of two words, Mono (a prefex signifying 'One') and Poly (also a prefix/adjective meaning 'of many atoms or parts).
It all depends which you put in front of the other and whether there's air in between.
Try 'Sharemarket' and 'Share Market' for instance, get it?
apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order ... what have the zealots ever done for us?
I also tried to get my 53-year old mother to switch to Firefox as well, recently... she seemed okay with it at first, but after a few days she switched back to Internet Explorer. She simply didn't perceive any fundamental benefit of Firefox over IE6 (especially after SP2), and really, to a lot of end-users there isn't anything really noteworthy.
I also got her to switch from Winamp over to iTunes recently... and that stuck REALLY fast. She found a lot of benefit in being able to buy music online through iTMS, burn and rip CD's, and learn more about artists.
Moral of the story: If you mom's smart enough to raise you to be a decent adult, then she's also smart enough to perceive when learning something new is going to give her a measurable benefit.
> Just curious...a few cents/gal up or down just isn't going to make a difference in my life...
It affects the price of transporting goods. Which is pretty much everything. It neither effects you immediately or individually all that much (unless you're a trucker), but it adds up.
Mind you, I think the effective subsidies we're all paying for gas and roads, to say nothing of the effects of global warming (decreased crop yields) disguise the actual cost of the stuff, so I'm not exactly clamoring for cheap gas. Just saying it's more than what you're paying at the pump.
I am no longer wasting my time with slashdot
The reason that most geeks are going for the 'smaller team' is that they know stuff that J. Random End-Luser doesn't: they understand why Windows is a bad choice, and why [generic unix] is better.
Making a choice depends on the question being asked and for what criteria. It's difficult to say what is a "bad" choice and what is a "good" choice when there was no question/criteria stated.
Many of the Linux folks pick the platform (Linux) and see everything else as being built on top of it. Most users pick the applications and see the OS as just something necessary to get their applications to run. That is one of the main issues that some don't understand.
It gets progressively more difficult to create seamless solutions when there are nearly infinite possibilities for customization and tweaking of settings. There's a basic tension in principle that can never be completely resolved.
Sure, it can be resolved: through proper modular architecture. The UNIX shell and its associated commands have such an architecture.
Mozilla and all the other Windows refugees, on the other hand, don't. The fault isn't Microsoft's or Netscape's, though: their programmers are just victims of a bad education. They actually think that building huge object-oriented architectures in which thousands of classes live all within the same address space is a good idea. That sort of silliness started with Smalltalk, which taught a generation of programmers that putting thousands of classes together and coupling them as closely as possible is a good thing.
There is a non-bloated, good, modular architecture for GUIs out there somewhere, but someone yet needs to find it. Perhaps the first step is for people to start realizing that it is worth looking for it and that the kind of bloat represented by Mozilla, MS Office, and OpenOffice is not inevitable.