IBM Backs PHP for Web Development

Christopher Reimer writes "C|Net is reporting that IBM will be getting behind the open-source language PHP for its WebSphere server software and tools. From the article: 'Big Blue's public commitment to PHP is significant because the company has the technical and marketing resources to accelerate usage of the open-source product.'" Evidently PHP is indeed becoming more popular.

Comments

Market share

[superpulpsicle]

Anyone know what market share Websphere really has in relation to say... Apache or IIS. I have seen a number of IBM shops, none of them use Websphere. Is it really just a coincidence.

Re:Market share

[sapbasisnerd]

That's compaing apples and oranges, Websphere is NOT a http server like Apache or IIS (in fact if I'm remebering correctly it uses Apache as its http server) it is an application server, the closest analog in OSS would be Tomcat.

Re:Market share

[Eric Giguere]

Wrong market. WebSphere is an application server, not a web server. Yes, it has a web server included with it, but that's not its raison d'etre. You'd be better off comparing it to BEA's WebLogic Server or to the open source JBoss Application Server or the free Sun Java System Application Server.

In terms of market share, the last nubmers I saw had WebSphere first, with WebLogic close behind.

Eric
J2ME programming overviews and stuff

Re:Market share

[FullMetalAlchemist]

I've moving into WebSphere (WS) as a system architect later this week (new job, wo-ha!). The impression I got is that it's VERY popular, just that WS Application Server (WSAS) is middleware, and you can really run WSAS with Apache or IIS as front-end if you really want to.

WS is as straitforward as .NET, i.e. not at all; it's both a product, and a concept (i.e. marketspeek). The WSAS is the product, and WS the marketspeek is a load of crap.

Personally I would rather see a Boo solution, it would more elegant than anything on the market, it it will never make it though for the same reasons PHP is so successful; which as nothing to do with being a really good product (like most success stories).

Re:Market share

[Eric Giguere]

the closest analog in OSS would be Tomcat

The closest open source analog would be JBoss. Tomcat isn't really an application server, either, at least not the way the term is used conventionally in the industry. (It is kind of fuzzy, though.) Tomcat is a servlet container. A servlet container is a necessary (but not sufficient) part of a J2EE application server, but Tomcat by itself is not a J2EE application server. See my other posting for better things to compare WebSphere to.

Eric

Re:Market share

[snorklewacker]

Long as we're throwing out links, let's bring up my personal favorite, Resin (now licensed under GPL!). The GPL version doesn't have any clustering support, but that's it. You can even get the full source for the commercial version, and that full version is still free-beer for any noncommercial usage.

But aside from the license stuff, it's lean, reasonably featureful for 80% of commonly-used features (if you really need lots of features, stick with jboss), and boy howdy it's fast. It's nice to have not only my jsp's, but all my servlets and even EJBs (though I stopped using EJB long ago) automatically recompiled (with jikes) upon a change.

Re:Market share

[eap]

Websphere isn't just a web server. There are several parts, some of which can be used standalone, like the MQ Queue Manager.

There are very few products as robust at message delivery and which run on Linux, DOS, OS/2, big iron, OpenVMS, Z/OS, and all flavors of Unix.

Re:Market share

[hackstraw]

I have seen a number of IBM shops, none of them use Websphere. Is it really just a coincidence.

Having worked with websphere, I would say no, its not a coincidence.

Although this was 5 years ago.

Re:Market share

[tha_mink]

Personally I would rather see a Boo solution, it would more elegant than anything on the market, it it will never make it though for the same reasons PHP is so successful; which as nothing to do with being a really good product (like most success stories).

I guess that really depends on how you define a "good product"...or more to the point, from which perspective you define a good product.

Re:Market share

[abnormal]

In addition to the http server clarifications above, it's important to note that "WebSphere" is not a product - it is a brand. There are tons of software products that belong to the WebSphere brand like Application Developer, Application Server, MQ, etc.

That said, typically when people refer to "WebSphere" like in this case, they mean "WebSphere Application Server" or "WAS".

how about python?

[same_old_story]

I stuble across many articles on ibm developers network about python. seems like a lot of ibm hackers like it, but I never see the big blue showing any corporate support.
is this a 'we do not want to upset java' thing, or is python imature for hard core web programming?

Re:how about python?

[afd8856]

I'd say, with zope, webware, quixote, twisted and many many others, there's a bit too much in the python web world. What it lacks is a "definitive" web framework.

Of course, for me the answer it's simple (zope), but it's not an easy solution and it's more involved. Zope is an application server: you get an OO data storage, an API to develop applications for it, catalog services (search), portal toolkit - CMF (membership, workflow, etc), and even a full portal system, with plone.

Php has the advantage of being simple to deploy and implement.

Re:how about python?

[Anonymous Coward]

Zope is basically the Lotus Domino for the 21st century. Makes easy things easy, hard things impossible, and ties it all together in a non-interoperable, proprietary, environment-specifc mess that will be impossible to migrate when the time comes. So it would be just the perfect thing for IBM to foist on customers.

Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[smittyoneeach]

In all seriousness: is there a significant advantage to using PHP?
Can we say it readily supports simple things in a (subjectively) more obvious way than <alternative>?

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

With Microsoft (IBM's main competitor in this market) pushing a more structured environment with ASP.NET, does it make any sense to push unstructured scripting like PHP over Java?

Maybe they should just fix JSP/Eclipse/Struts/Tomcat to get it up to the same ease-of-use as ASP.NET/IIS.

(The irony is that you could always write PHPish 'Model 1' JSP code, but that's considered "bad practice" in the Java world so nobody does it.)

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

The advantage PHP has is simple: there are huge numbers of C/C++ coders who would find it easier to learn and use PHP than Perl/CGI, Java or ASP.Net.

And its lack of structure is attractive to many as many sites simple do not have a formal object-based structure.

It's simple, and it works. And that's what mainly matters anymore, especially with tightening budgets for web sites.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

I have to ask the same question. It seems to me that PHP gained popularity as an *nix/c-Syntax alternative to Microsoft's ASP. Like ASP - quick, dirty, cheap, and not-compiled. But for all its faults, ASP at least had Option Explicit .

However, the language seems lend itself to a lot coding flaws - explicitly defined variables, variables that can do quadruple duty as scalars, arrays, maps and references with no visual cue as to what they're for, abuse of global variables, no standard library resulting in 5+ functions that do the same thing - that result in unreadable, obtuse and convoluted code.

(Before somebody flames me about such things being a matter of "taste" - there are academic studies out there regarding human comprehension of coding styles. These things are quantifiable. That's why it's called Computer Science - not Computer Art)

Yes, bad progammers can make even the best language suck, but PHP really gives you free reign to be more sloppy than most. Yeah, a lot of php apps look slick (phpNuke, phpAdmin, etc) but under the hood they're a mess. :-\

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to say that "bad taste" is the biggest problem with PHP as well. While every other web environment pushes a structured database layer to prevent SQL injection, PHP Geniuses come up with "Magic Quotes" and then pat themeselves on the back with how smart they are. Is it any wonder that PHP is the most exploited web app enviornment?

There's a lot of immediate things that IBM could do to improve PHP:
1) Add a real JDO/ADO.NET-like database layer
2) Database Connection Pooling!
3) Class library (or just bridge into Java's)

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[advid]

Except there is a standard library. It might not be complete enough for you (and some bits aren't compiled by default), but it's definitely a standard group of functions included in the distribution.

The documentation I just linked to is probably one of the biggest reasons for PHP's success. It's comprehensive, provides a good overview, and lets you easily dip in to find what you need. It makes it easy for amateurs to write simple PHP. (Admittedly with a whole load of coding errors, but they can improve.)

I'd also hardly say that no visual cue for what type a variable is represents a serious issue. It wasn't mentioned in that article you linked to, either. What makes it an issue is the easy and automatic typecasting, and lack of a decent structure in most php.

I'd dispute your statement that these things are quantifiable. It really is taste and, more importantly, experience. Many people can read LISP, for instance. To them a LISP program can be read as easily as, say, Python can be read by most traditional programmers. The best you can do is say what the average programmer is likely to find helpful, not necessarily which features are inherently helpful.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

PHP Geniuses come up with "Magic Quotes" and then pat themeselves on the back with how smart they are.

You know, a few years ago I bought PHP & MySQL Web Developement, and spent a lot of time to the 3-5 pages they spent explaining the importance of "Magic Quotes." Huh? If Magic Quotes are such a big deal, how come I never heard about them while learning JSP / ASP / Coldfusion / mod_perl / what-have-you ?

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

I'd also hardly say that no visual cue for what type a variable is represents a serious issue. It wasn't mentioned in that article you linked to, either. What makes it an issue is the easy and automatic typecasting, and lack of a decent structure in most php.

Erm I didn't link to an "article." I linked to a bibliography - list of the many volumes of research that have been done in the last 20+ years to build empirical evidence for code reading and comprehension. There has been a lot of scientific research done to quantify exactly how people of different levels can read and comprehend code of different styles - so it's not "just a matter of taste and experience."

You're not disagreeing with me - your disagreeing with the guys who earned PhD's in this stuff!

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

> there are academic studies out there regarding human comprehension of coding styles. These things are quantifiable. That's why it's called Computer Science - not Computer Art)

That has about as much to do with computer science as studies about the paint color on cars have to do with vehicular engineering. Computer science is about finite mathematics, algorithms, graph theory, computability theory (surprise surprise) and so forth.

But indeed, it doesn't take a scientific study for me to conclude that PHP sucks mightily, and not just as a language. PHP5 seems to fix *most* of the damage, however, but it's still tremendously warty. Warts I can live with, stupidity I can't.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Smidge204]

That thephpwtf site is great amusement, but I fail to see how 99% of that code is a result of the language. It's just as easy to write 5 page switch() statements, call external scripts written in other languages to do even the most mundane task that the language already has built in, or do things like "if ($I1[(int)0==4]===$lI||(int)4==0)" in C++. The remaining 1% of stupid code seems to be the result of PHP's loose type casting mechanism.

In other words, stupid is as stupid codes.

I suppose next they'll publish a study concluding that wreckless driving is the auto manufacturer's fault for making a steering wheel that moves?
=Smidge=

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

*SIGH* My point was that for some reason PHP is the only language I've learned that makes a big deal over "Magic Quotes." Either the PHP authors are onto something that it happens nobody else has caught onto after 5+ years (yeah, right) or they have introduced a feature that just confuses everybody and 99% of the time gets turned off anyway.

How about instead of making coders puzzle over Magic Quotes related issues, we instead make them read an informative article on preventing cross site scripting / SQL injection. "Teach a man to fish..." etc.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

That has about as much to do with computer science as studies about the paint color on cars have to do with vehicular engineering.

Ummm wrong analogy. "Finite mathematics, algorithms, graph theory, computability theory" are equivalent to laws of thermodynamics and combustion. But when you need somebody to fix your car, do you call a physicist? Programming lanuages are the implementation of the comp sci theory you refer to, just as a car engine is the implementation of internal combustion theory.

One common complaint by employers has been that Comp Sci grads lack practical programming skills and now little about writing readable, maintainable code. So (suprise, suprise) many Comp Sci depts (as indicated by the linked Bibliography) are doing research to learn more about coding technique in an empirical manner - and then pass that onto their students.

Again, I'm just reporting what's actually going on, not crowing my own opinion.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[RaisinBread]

After moving away from Java, I couldn't be more pleased with the flexibility in PHP for web development and even shell script replacement.

It's concise (none of this System.out.println.pretty.please() funny business), the documentation is stellar, it plays nice with many different technologies, and I don't have to objectify and type-cast anything I don't want to. PHP 5 has all the object love and forced typing I need - and the great part about it is that its there if I need it. PHP also has a extension repository PEAR, and a slick templating engine, Smarty.

Sure, it 'lends itself to coding flaws', but it also lends itself to flexible web development and very quick development cycles.

Just because you put your code monkeys in front of Visual Studio or Eclipse *does not make the code any cleaner.* You can't force people to write clean code (which IMHO is an art). More 'structured' languages might even cause dummies to write even more workaround code. And while OOP is really great, I've seen folks who objectify projects into oblivion.

Don't buy in on broad-generalizations like the parent and check PHP out. PHP is on the up, and IBM (along with many others) are noticing.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[sundru]

all of this to defend ASP? Pffft , any language can be squandered due to sloppiness of a programmer. Restricting programmer sloppiness from within a Language should be none of the languages business, it rather should be the programmers supervisor. For the last 4 commercial web projects i have built and sold , PHP has let me do everything i need from generating PDF's, dynamic graphics, menus ,DB interfaces to a bunch of vendors etc etc . And the code reusability is awesome , once you have the framework any application is just a few copy paste links away .

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[rsidd]

I suppose next they'll publish a study concluding that wreckless driving is the auto manufacturer's fault

I think many auto manufacturers will gladly take credit for wreckless driving.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Combuchan]

Because if you use things like Magic Quotes, you should be, at least theoretically, immune to CSS/SQL injection attacks. That's part of the reason PHP exists--so you don't have to worry about that sort of thing. The same can be extended to most other concepts like CGI and HTTP that PHP has built in functions for--things you'd have to worry about in lower level languages.

One aside to that is that Magic Quotes can be a pain in the ass to deal with. Poorly coded applications will have strings of text like Joe\'s Hot Dogs, or even worse Joe\\\\\\\\'s Hot Dogs. I find myself having to use stripslashes for certain functions. Oh well. The other aside is that 'real programmers' already know about SQL injection and that sort of thing.

Whether PHP provides convenience or a blindfold is the real question.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[DerelictMan]

It's widely recognized that enabling the "magic quotes" feature in PHP makes the Baby Jesus cry. If you read the archives of the PHP internals list you'll see that even the PHP devs themselves recognize that it was a huge mistake that has caused more headaches than it has solved...

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Dracos]

Smarty might be "slick", but it has a real weakness in not being XML based, like this templating engine.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[bani]

i love the php documentation and i'd love to know what package they're using to drive it (not the language, obviously php). some kind of custom documentation-wiki or something.

i wish they'd share :)

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

And then when you're done checking out PHP, check out Ruby on Rails (http://www.rubyonrails.com/).

Your mind will be blown wide open.

Yeah, moving from Java to PHP is good, because PHP is like Interpreted Java Lite. Why not move to a language that *improves* productivity?

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[corecaptain]

For the last several years I have been developing
web apps with java. I have experience with
everything from ATG Dynamo, Tomcat, Struts,
Spring Framework, etc.

It is long story but I coded and host a few apache/java websites for friends/family from my
house. Recently, I wanted to move these to
commercially hosted sites. While I could find
a number of tomcat hosts the cost seemed to be
roughly twice that of php hosting. Furthermore,
I just didn't feel good turning over java apps
that I knew would be more complex/expensive to maintain.

So I decided that since the apps were relatively
simple I would just re-implement them in PHP.

What I have discovered is that for these simple
sites (5-6 applications, 10-20 pages) PHP is much
more productive than java. Take one example - try to build a web application that allows for image uploading, storage, and manipulation in Java -
with PHP it was done in less than 30 lines of code
and 1 hour.

I know all the arguments against using PHP vs.
Java - but the bottom line is that the online
documentation at php.net gets right to the point
with plenty of code snippets (whens the last time
a javadoc page actually had any samples of how to
use the damn class), PHP works, you can find
thousands of cheap hosting solutions, and if you
need there is probably a high schooler down the street who you could hire to keep your site up.

As extreme programming teaches - do the simplest
thing possible that works - I think IBM is realizing that maybe for some significant % of
web apps/sites PHP might just be the simplest
thing.....

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not disagreeing with me - your disagreeing with the guys who earned PhD's in this stuff!

The PhD guys did general studies on syntax and you are the one that are drawing conclusions on what this means for PHP from their studies and your own observations of PHP. Your conclusions may or may not be valid, but they are certainly your own conclusions and not theirs.

I'm not inclined to trust your conclusions because you state that PHP doesn't have a standard library - a completely false claim.

You say at least ASP had option explicit - if you had read the link you had provided, you would have already known that there are alternatives for PHP.

You talk about variables serving "quadruple duty"; that claim can be levelled at any dynamically-typed language.

You talk about "abuse of global variables" without substantiating it in the slightest. What abuse are you talking about?

We're actually migrating away from PHP to Python because of increased productivity, flaws in the standard library and other shortcomings. PHP certainly isn't perfect. But the accusations you make seem to be completely unfounded.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[RaisinBread]

I like Ruby some.... but nearly no one uses it, and the documentation I found was severely lacking. Same with Python.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

You talk about "abuse of global variables" without substantiating it in the slightest. What abuse are you talking about?

$GLOBALS

Your conclusions may or may not be valid, but they are certainly your own conclusions and not theirs.

Growing a Language: A Conversation with Guy Steele
From the interview:

Designing a good programming language isn't just a matter of throwing together a set of features; it's a matter of establishing important principles that the programmer can rely on. It's important to follow those principles as a language is extended. Sometimes the principles themselves can be extended, but only with great care. Here are four examples of important principles in the Java language: local variables are private, you can't violate the type system, the evaluation order goes from left to right, and the "equals" method is symmetric and transitive.

PHP has very few rules that the programmer can rely on. Googling up academic criticism of PHP's "design" is left as an exercise to the reader.

You talk about variables serving "quadruple duty"; that claim can be levelled at any dynamically-typed language.

But even perl distiguishes between types of data structures with $scalar @list and #map. PHP code is very unscannable because it lacks such a feature. Even if the coder uses strict naming conventions, the variable could still end up doing "quadruple duty."

ASP has a similar problem when coded with VBScript. Well, that's why Microsoft chucked it for .NET

I'm not inclined to trust your conclusions because you state that PHP doesn't have a standard library - a completely false claim

Not a false claim. PHP5 has a standard library. PHP4 and earlier has a big mishmosh of functions that you might call a library. I wonder how much of the installed PHP code has been refactored to use the PHP5 Standard Libraries?

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

It's concise (none of this System.out.println.pretty.please() funny business),

Everyone always uses System.out.println() as the example...

However, System.out.println is rarely used in production code! Most output is going to go to Swing textboxes or pushed to a browser in JSP pages. Huh?

If it's really such a hassle, just add this static function to your HelloWorld class.

static void print(String msg) {
System.out.println(msg);
}

And for input, Java 1.5 now has java.util.Scanner /me shrugs

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

And the code reusability is awesome , once you have the framework any application is just a few copy paste links away .

For our other readers...

Code Reusability != "copy-paste"

*shudder*

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[bani]

you shouldnt have to do that stuff just to get something usable.

php is usable out of the box, integrates nicely out of the box with oh just about anything you can imagine. with java you have to shore it up with bailing wire and bubblegum before its usable.

its quite simple, people find themselves far more productive in php than java. doesnt matter how semantically perfect the language is if it takes you 3 times as long to do something in java as it does in php.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[the eric conspiracy]

PHP has very few rules that the programmer can rely on. Googling up academic criticism of PHP's "design" is left as an exercise to the reader.

It is much worse than that. A good language should be about support for effective software architectures.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[moof1138]

"That's part of the reason PHP exists--so you don't have to worry about that sort of thing."

The bugtraq archives of the last few years make it plenty clear that magic quotes will do nothing to protect you from CSS attacks. CSS attacks against PHP web apps are painfully common. Magic quote may protect you from SQL injection attacks (or may not if you use stripslashes and a bug sneaks in).

You *have* to worry about this sort of thing, no matter what language you are using. Eeven if it theoretically should be hardened you should still worry a bit, IMHO. I do quite agree that the question is 'whether PHP provides convenience or a blindfold.'

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[sundru]

For our other readers...
Code Reusability != "copy-paste"

You know what i meant, tryin to make a point eh ?

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[omb]

Do you ever try things before you post? PHP is really useful unless you you work for a major consultancy with a vested interest in increasing the time it takes to code anything.

Perl and PHP enable you to do simple things simply

eg PERL;

print "Hello World\n";

see the same thing in Java!

Believe me, PHP is really useful, particularly for generating dynamic HTML.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[omb]

Sadly, you are 100% wrong! You believe, and I am sure you have been taught "Computing Science" a vast ammount of unsubstantiated junk about programming languages and development methodologies by a bunch of Academics, most of whom write 20 line programs. In the worst case 3 line programs, 2 of which were actually written by someone else. As someone who has spent most of my working life programming, from age 16 on the EDSAC II, let me let you into a little secret: The number of bugs in code exceeds O(n^2) for sequential code, and for non sequential it is at least O(n^5). Finally, the shorter a program is, the more comprehensible it is! Idiots that tell you that a coding sytem that makes you write extra code to reassure the compiler that you know what you are doing should be bound to the stone, with a quill that only writes COBOL or ADA.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

does it make any sense to push unstructured scripting like PHP over Java?

IBM has had a good record the past few years with what technologies they back such as linux and open sourcing some of their software. I'd hate to see them ruin that record by backing java.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

$GLOBALS

Well I've never seen any code in the real world that uses it, and the standard library doesn't require that you use it, so I can't see how you can write off PHP because of its abuse. Other languages certainly have concepts of a global scope, why are you singling out PHP for criticism in this respect?

Growing a Language: A Conversation with Guy Steele

Guy Steele didn't mention PHP once.

PHP has very few rules that the programmer can rely on.

That's your judgement, not Guy Steele's. I'm not saying that you are right or wrong, I'm just saying that it's your judgement, not his.

But even perl distiguishes between types of data structures with $scalar @list and #map. PHP code is very unscannable because it lacks such a feature.

But you are singling out PHP for criticism when in actual fact, Perl is unusual in using differentiating prefixes. It may be an added bonus of using Perl, but it's not a reason to criticise PHP above and beyond other dynamically typed languages, e.g. Python.

ASP has a similar problem when coded with VBScript. Well, that's why Microsoft chucked it for .NET

The same applies with ASP/JScript, ASP/Pythonscript and ASP/Tcl, so again, I think you are judging PHP harshly on something other than its technical merits - otherwise you'd be complaining about all those other languages as well. ASP is still present in .NET.

Not a false claim. PHP5 has a standard library. PHP4 and earlier has a big mishmosh of functions that you might call a library.

Yes, you might call it a "library". And it comes with PHP as "standard". Hence your claim that it doesn't have a standard library is simply false.

I wonder how much of the installed PHP code has been refactored to use the PHP5 Standard Libraries?

I would imagine very little, since the standard library didn't change much between the two versions - it was mainly core language changes that needed porting (refactored is the wrong term).

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[lphuberdeau]

It's a custom XML-based documentation system from what I know. It's also open to everyone. Ever noticed the 'show source' link at the bottom of every page? It leads to the source of the current page and all included files are also linked. See for yourself.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[advid]

Look, this is Slashdot, any link is "an article". :-)

I was just saying that there's nothing in the bibliography that seems to mention the value of variable-type naming conventions. I'm very lazy, and don't want to track down and read all those papers, so I don't know if any of them touched on the issue.

Your complaint with PHP seems to be, as other respondants have said, that you see a lot of crappy code written in it. I'd argue that this is not a function of the language, but of the type of people who wind up using it. (I.e. amateur web-designers who're trying to make OSCommerce do what they want.)

I'm actually in the middle of rewriting a small-scale PHP app for the maintenance of a fiction archive (I felt it would be quicker to take something GPL'd and working and make it better than to try to write something from scratch), and I'm seeing a lot of really, really bad code. But this seems to be because the person who wrote the package didn't understand or care for important concepts, rather than anything inherent in PHP.

If you're willing to follow proceedures like unit tests (buzzwordy, I know), then it shouldn't cause any difficulty to use a dynamicly-typed language like PHP or Python. Indeed, the argument goes that you'll be more productive becuse you won't be dealing with the overhead of static typing, and the unit tests will let you see where bugs are cropping up before you otherwise might have.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[puff the barbarian]

#map

huh?

maybe %hash?

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[tha_mink]

Because if you use things like Magic Quotes, you should be, at least theoretically, immune to CSS/SQL injection attacks. That's part of the reason PHP exists--so you don't have to worry about that sort of thing.

I love PHP and all, in fact, I make a living with it, but it's statements like your's that make me nervous. Good code makes you immune to CSS/SQL injection. One should never rely on the language for that sort of thing. It\\\\\\'s not the the pain in the ass of striping slashes that one should concern one's self with.

Again, I love php and I make a living on it but make no mistake, it's popular because it provides a blindfold and that makes it work easy.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[richman555]

I agree, my experience with the 2 languages is that Java coders will often spend alot of time worrying about complex frameworks, instead of building a few simple easy dynamic web pages. Its not always the best thing to build websites with, just don't tell a Java developer that.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[the eric conspiracy]

php is usable out of the box, integrates nicely out of the box with oh just about anything you can imagine. with java you have to shore it up with bailing wire and bubblegum before its usable.

I call bullshit. PHP is nowhere near as complete a development platform as Java.

its quite simple, people find themselves far more productive in php than java. doesnt matter how semantically perfect the language is if it takes you 3 times as long to do something in java as it does in php.

Yes, PHP is better for prototyping because you can create something faster. But have you ever worked on a PHP application that has been around for a few years? PHP applications rapidly become maintenance nightmares after a few hands work on them. Java can be that way too, but the language 'semantic perfection' makes maintanable code a bit more natural. In the long run that translates to lower costs over the life of the project.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

yes.

%hash

I always make that mistake think of # being the symbol for hash map because 1) # is called "hash" but some and 2) it looks like a table. :P

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

You know what? Never mind. You're missing the forest for the trees. The PHP4 "library" is a mess, the interview I linked to was meant to show how PhD's think that well-designed languages have specific features that enforce code consistency - of which PHP has none - ASP.NET uses compiled code, not the scripting of "classic" ASP - so that statement of yours is wrong - and finally I left the exercise of finding specific, academic criticisms of PHP itself to The Reader (you).

However, you don't have to Google at all - just read the rest of this thread. It seems like just about everyone else is agreeing that PHP has major design problems, including people who use it for a living and including, apparently, the PHP internals developers.

I can't hold you by the hand and lead you everywhere - you're going to have to do some work for yourself if you really have an open mind.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

Hrm...I thought you meant that you were copying-and-pasting code. In my experience, abused like crazy in scripting.

But you meant you were copy-pasting URLs to find PHP libraries?

BTW -

generating PDF's
http://www.lowagie.com/iText/

dynamic graphics
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/2d/spec. html

menus
huh? If you have a cms like http://opencms.org/, which you should use anyway - you got menus.

DB interfaces
http://hibernate.org/

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

But Donald Knuth is probably the ultimate Comp Sci academic and he wrote TeX. I've had more than one self-taught "hackers" tell me that his books on Programming are the only "real" books on the subject.

Finally, the shorter a program is, the more comprehensible it is!

You must be a perl coder :)

I love that part in Learning Perl where the author asserts that *theoretically* every program could be reduced to a single line of code.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[cyranoVR]

Yes, PHP is better for prototyping because you can create something faster. But have you ever worked on a PHP application that has been around for a few years? PHP applications rapidly become maintenance nightmares after a few hands work on them. Java can be that way too, but the language 'semantic perfection' makes maintanable code a bit more natural. In the long run that translates to lower costs over the life of the project.

What he said :)

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[DrSkwid]

I'm with you.

I've been coding in PHP every day for that last 5 years.

PHP is a mature macro langauge. Like something you would have on your calculator.

if(array_key_exists($array, $key))

rather than something akin to

if ($key in $array)

for me, marks it out as something to avoid getting too defensive about

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[mebob]

Are PHP's image manipulating functions good enough for a professional site? I remember playing with a test site a while back and being less then impressed with the image quality. I'm now using a product from efflare, imageCR, along with ColdFusion. The quality is phenomenal, many of the images that are just resized or thumbnailed honistly look better then what comes out of photoshop. No jagged line, etc... If I move to php, will I need another third part product?

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing the forest for the trees.

No, I'm complaining that you're talking nonsense. I've already agreed that PHP isn't the best language in the world.

The PHP4 "library" is a mess

You claimed it didn't exist!

the interview I linked to was meant to show how PhD's think that well-designed languages have specific features that enforce code consistency - of which PHP has none

You implied they backed up your opinion on PHP, when they didn't mention PHP once!

ASP.NET uses compiled code, not the scripting of "classic" ASP - so that statement of yours is wrong

Which statement? You started off talking about ASP, and those languages can certainly be used with ASP, then you said that Microsoft chucked ASP for .NET, which is obviously false, because ASP is now a component of .NET.

I'm not complaining about your general point - I've already stated this - I'm complaining that the specific claims you make are simply untrue.

Stop acting like a fuckwit and admit that PHP has a standard library.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

use image magick, there's a library or you can do it from the command line

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Bojan Zivanovic]

1) Add a real JDO/ADO.NET-like database layer This is planed for PHP 5.1

Already confirmed for PHP 5.1 is the PHP Data Objects extension (PDO), which unifies the various database APIs so that you can just call pdo_query() rather than mysql_query(), pgsql_query(), or any of the others. It won't replace PEAR::DB because it doesn't abstract the SQL dialects being used, but it will instead complement PEAR::DB. We're also expecting big speed improvements in PHP 5.1, and not just in any single area - all sorts of calls, from switch/case statements to the sort() function and class autoloading are all improved.

Tip: Use SafeSQL in all your scripts, sql injection attacks are not pleasant :)

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[jnkt]

I am sorry, but I don't understand your reasoning.
When fulfilling a set of requirements, a developer starts with analyzing his/her problem domain, breaks down the problem into areas, enters an iterative process of devising an architecture and finally starts the technology selection process. The technologies chosen are the ones which under the circumstance are most likely to solve the outlined problems within current constraints (money/time/skills). For example, using a relational database for structured data, a directory (aka. "LDAP") as a user repository, Message queues for assured delivery of intersystem messages, a runtime platform for the application logic (java,python,php,C ... whatever is best suited). Finally the phase goes on to detailed design, development and testing.

Given the fact that most all projects go through these phases, I fail to see the importance of a specific language. IBM has been in the industry for quite a while and to me, what they likely try to acomplish with backing PHP is to increase the number of technologies which can be leveraged with minor to no extra effort by their customers (especially 80-100% IBM shops, like Ford) when working with IBM products.

All technologies have pros and cons and what dictates what ones to use for a specific project is how well the tech. fulfills the listed requirements.
Java, C nor PHP is a solution to a problem, they're just components in the equation, which when utilized under the right circumstances can help you getting closer to the goal.

IBM is in this for the $$$. What is remarkable about that company (at least for the last decade) is their approach. Giving the customers what they need/want. Look at how WAS (WebSphere Application Server), WPS (portal server), IHS (http server) etc. came to be. They all derived from customer demand. If a tech. was already on the market, IBM embraced that tech., enhanced it (adding new abilities, not changing existing ones except for bug fixes) if needed and made sure to stick to any standards which the original tech. had embraced or adapted new standards for the enhancements. Interoperability seems to be what IBM is all about and when they OpenSource stuff, I'd wager it's likely due to two reasons: 1) It's easier to get key players on board new concepts if the other players feel they can affect the course. 2) Techs which currently haven't the proper market needed to justify devoting millions or billions in own investment can continue to progress at a rapid pace by sharing the investment with others (other companies, OSS developers etc.) until hopefully the market matures. At that time it's likely easier convincing the execs to plow down the cash needed to create new products or apply the final touches before adapting the techs across existing products.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the things PHP is really good for is writing apache modules, sort of. If you want a custom c function that can be called from an html page, coding your function into php provides a simple way to get up and running with it faster than if you code using the apache module api. Last time I did this (php3 it was, probably not too different now) all I had to do was write my function, enter its prototype into a header file, and recompile. The multitude of 3rd party tool support in php is evidence of this ease.

That being said, this is not unique to php...its just easier imho than JNI.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[slick_rick]

I like PHP also. It is fast and fun(!) to develop with. Things come together quickly... However that is also part of the problem. The barrier to entry is so low that it suffers from the dentist syndrome (what do you call someone who couldn't make it through med school? A dentist.. What do you call a web developer who couldn't hack it with J2EE? A PHP programmer) I've seen so much brain-dead PHP code from kids straight out of college, I have come to believe that it isn't the appropriate choice for larger projects (unless you don't mind eating spaghetti). For small projects it is great, but I believe larger projects need a language that promotes more structure.

Other huge issues with PHP include:

Database Support: The drivers are built on top of native drivers... So they often behave differently on various platforms and are sometimes unavailable (See MS-SQL on linux, and don't tell my about FreeTDS, it has been broken for almost two years)

Backward Compatibility: PHP is famous for breaking large things on minor releases. For example somewhere in the 4.1.x series PHP decided that 0 != null anymore. This caused major headaches around here (as we are mostly a PHP shop). Sure it was in the release notes, but who expects such a major change in a minor release?

PHP is stateless, which is good and bad. It is good in that you don't have to think so hard about race conditions, etc. It is bad because you can't pool objects that are expensive to create (other then the built in database pooling). This makes some things very hard to do in PHP that are trivial in Java. For example, sparking a thread to run in the background and reporting on it's progress as time goes on, then sending an email out when the background process finishes.

For personal web projects I still use PHP. For small web projects I use PHP. For throw away web code I still like PHP. For large projects or those with several developers, these days I prefer Java.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[aled]

I'm curious, why you use System.out.println() in a web application? I can't think of any need for that other than debuging and for that are much better alternatives, like logging with log4j.

Re:Power? Performance? Ease of Use?

[aled]

<sarcastic>Perhaps some programmers don't do simple dynamic web pages and must do complex web applications, but don't tell a php developer that and that Santa doesn't exists.</sarcastic>

Are analysts worth their salaries?

[coder.keitaro]

"PHP, Perl and Python have been around for several years and their use appears to be growing"

I mean, come on. Several years/i??
Perl has been around since '87

Re:Are analysts worth their salaries?

[Doug Dante]

I mean, come on. Several years/i?? Perl has been around since '87

PHP/FI, the first version of what was to be PHP, was release in 1995 (the same year that Java was first released), so it's been around for a decade now. You may be comforted to know that PHP was originally written in Perl.

Net.Data

[Xunker]

For those who ever used it, it looks as though IBM is taking on PHP as a replacement for its old web language "Net.Data".

Not yet

[Anonymous Coward]

Not until netcraft confirms it is it getting popular!

What had "Websphere" been using? Java exclusively?

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

I've never programmed for "Websphere" before, but I had always thought that it was part of IBM's big [massive?] "Java as Middleware" initiative - a few years back, they were putting some serious muscle into marketing multi-million dollar AS400 boxen to compete in that arena [systems that, for all intents and purposes, were really more mainframe-ish than boxen-ish].

Is the gist of this news item that IBM is abandoning Java for PHP? [And yes, I did skim TFA.]

some speculation

[displague]

Why doesn't IBM just buy out Zend? Actually, perhaps Novell should?

I suppose there is the question of how much money Zend actually makes, but I would think that the steering power and recognition might be well worth it.

Re:some speculation

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should they? How does that play into their business plan. The point here is that IBM is showing support of PHP not they plan to use it exclusively or expect others to do so.

Re:some speculation

[Covener]

Why doesn't IBM just buy out Zend? Actually, perhaps Novell should?

I suppose there is the question of how much money Zend actually makes, but I would think that the steering power and recognition might be well worth it.

Just what IBM needs -- the power and recognition of Zend.

Ask and ye shall receive

[JimDabell]

Not until netcraft confirms it is it getting popular!

Very well then.

Re:What had "Websphere" been using? Java exclusive

[Eric Giguere]

Is the gist of this news item that IBM is abandoning Java for PHP?

No, it sounds like they just want to support a scripting language for use in the application server and the Groovy standardization process (of which they're a part) is probably going too slowly for their liking.

Eric

Websphere == product line brand name

[meatball_mulligan]

The term "Websphere" could mean alot of different things. It is IBM's branding for all of their middleware and web related products:

• Websphere Application Server(WAS)
  This is their J2EE application server. It plays in the sam space as BEA's WebLogic App Server, JBoss, etc. It's the cornerstone of their Websphere line and comes in many sizes and flavors, running on anything from a single server, to clusters of servers, to minis, to the Mainframe.
• Websphere Studio Application Developer(WSAD)
  This is their primary J2EE development tool. It's built around the Eclipse framework IBM developed and released to open source, so their are also tons and tons of other tools that plugin to WSAD.
• Websphere Portal Server(WPS)
  A portal and colaboration server built on top of WAS. WPS also includes a lot of the technologies that grew out of their Domino platform.
• Websphere MQ
  IBM's Message Oriented Middleware foundation. (Formerly MQSeries)
• Websphere Business Integration
  EAI
• Websphere Commerce Server
  B2C
• Websphere Everyplace
  mobile connectivity

... and on and on for about a hundred products. One of the few products not branded "Websphere" is their web server, an Apache distro, called simply "IBM HTTPD" or "IBM HTTP Server".

Re:Websphere == product line brand name

[meatball_mulligan]

Oh yeah, and if anybody had bothered to Read The Friggin' Article, they'd have seen that this doesn't really have much to do with any of the Websphere products, but hey this is /. , so I guess that'd be asking too much.>

r.m.

Re:Websphere == product line brand name

[Anonymous Coward]

WebSphere also covers the entire Voice Product Line such as WebSphere Voice Server and WebSphere Voice Response.
Btw, WSAD is becoming RAD (Rational Application Developer).

What about Domino

[mnmn]

I've seen plenty of sites running on Lotus Domino, for example symantec. Domino can run java programs, not particularly applets and beans... but is a snappier version of websphere focused on mail and calendars. Since it has strong support for sessions, using PHP with it makes lots of sense.

Otherwise we'd have to resort to installing websphere over domino (connector) and then using php in websphere. To run the whole thing we'd probably need one of the Sun dual-Athlon64 servers...

Not what the article said

[Anonymous Coward]

"C|Net is reporting that IBM will be getting behind the open-source language PHP for its WebSphere server software and tools"

The article didn't say the WebSphere brand would be using PHP or even supporting it. It just that PHP could be for the low end and WebSphere for the high end. This is no different than its cloudscape vs. DB2 support. Cloudscape for low end, and DB2 for high end.

Re:What had "Websphere" been using? Java exclusive

[TopSpin]

What had "Websphere" been using? Java exclusively?

Websphere is a full application server stack. One part of that happens to be the "IBM HTTP Listener", which is Apache repackaged. It is also a straightforward way to run Apache with a working SSL implementation on Windows. I used it a few years ago to run a PHP site on W2K. It worked pretty well and problems were actively addressed on IBM's support forums.

It was a good experience overall. If I ever have to run a PHP site on Windows again (as opposed to feeding my forehead into a belt sander) I'd use it.

JCP for scripiting

[nlmueng]

JCP for scripiting languages is becoming part of java so web apps can be created using PHP but still use all other parts of J2EE. http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223 Could be why they are supporting it now, will right right out of the box on their app server.

PHP's success

[bani]

every time PHP (or mysql) comes up, the trolls come out from under their rocks and whine how "php sux","mysql sux" and "java rulez","postgresql rulez" -- ranting about how you'd have to be a complete fuckwit to use php or mysql. they rant about how mysql isnt a "true relational db" or how php isn't "truly oo" blabla yaddayadda, etc. etc. and how postgresql's stored procedures will bring world peace and end world hunger.

but they are always completely missing the point.

instead of ranting about why postgresql and java are "better" than mysql or php, they should be focusing on why php and mysql are more widely used than postgresql and java.

if they focused on those issues instead of language elitism and semantic perfection, then maybe java and postgresql would be more popular.

Re:PHP's success

[LDoggg_]

I've used both extensively.
Apples to oranges comparison on both the languages and the databases.

Pick the right tool for the job, they both have strengths and weeknesses.

Re:PHP's success

[Anonymous Coward]

instead of ranting about why postgresql and java are "better" than mysql or php, they should be focusing on why php and mysql are more widely used than postgresql and java.

Why MySQL is more popular than PostgreSQL:

MySQL has had a Windows port that is easy to install, PostgreSQL only just got one (it had one before that was a hassle to set up).

This made MySQL initially popular, and so it's what ISPs installed and what books got written about. Because it's what ISPs installed and what books got written about, it's what people learnt. A self-perpetuating cycle that is hard to shake loose, even for crappy software. Look at Windows.

Java was a latecomer to the web application world compared to PHP and ASP, when they were getting popular, Java was busy making a name for itself as being a slow, buggy, incompatible applet language. The same self-perpetuating cycle happened here.

if they focused on those issues instead of language elitism and semantic perfection, then maybe java and postgresql would be more popular.

There isn't anything technical to fix to make PostgreSQL and Java as popular as MySQL and PHP. It's a problem with perception, a problem with the existing user-base, and a problem with the network effect.

Re:PHP's success

[shutdown -p now]

Maybe if Nightwish focused less on culture elitism and music perfection, and more on why Britney Spears is much more popular... oh... wait =/

Re:PHP's success

[omb]

As someone who uses all of:

C, C#, C++, Java, Perl & PHP ..

Oracle, MySql, Postgress, Sybase, and not to forget the SleepyCat Berleley DB (incorporated in MySql) ...

what the trolls need to do is go back to Hogwarts remedial school for Trolls, mandated by the "No Trolls left behind Act".

Re:PHP's success

[the eric conspiracy]

Well, I think mysql is used more than postgresql mostly because it was first to become widely distributed. In terms of end use there really isn't all that much difference between the two except maybe postgresql has a bit more support for what people consider to be standard relational features.

One thing to consider when you choose either is what the upgrade path might be. Mysql maps reasonably well to Microsoft SQL server, while postgresql maps better to Oracle.

As far as Java vs. PHP goes, I think that the statement that PHP is more widely used is very dicey. PHP is more widely used, but on small projects. Once you get into something that is being used on a large scale Java is far more common. There are a variety of reasons, a lot of which are historical, and some which are due to the structure of the language. For example I can't see a formal SDLC shop mapping too well to the use of PHP. For a big project this would be a very serious problem.

One good thing that I hope will come out of IBM"s PHP support is better tools - solid Eclipse plugins for PHP would be greatly appreciated.

Re:PHP's success

[DrSkwid]

ranting about how you'd have to be a complete fuckwit to use php or mysql

With modern GUIs, installation is foolproof!

ASP vrs PHP

[Spinlock_1977]

I've written applications in both - and here's a difference no one talks about. When you open up MS's ASP environment, all that great GUI stuff is there and it's pretty easy to get going. Then as often happens in a development environment, you need a quick script to munge a long list of field names. Is ASP your first choice? It wasn't mine, because I couldn't find a way to get input into/out of it from the command line. So I whipped up a temporary web page with a text box to do it. More overhead than I wanted to spend for what should be a 2 minute job given an editor with macro key abilities.

Then a couple of years later I built my first app in PHP. The first thing I noticed was how easy it was to script from the command line. Since I'm not a perl junkie, it was real useful for small scripting jobs. I'd use a shell language for this, but fankly, I'd rather poke a fork in my eyes.

The next thing I noticed in PHP was I needed an modern editor (the free download doesn't come with an IDE), so I bought one from zend.com for a couple of hundred bucks. It's getting better, but like ASP, it too has no macro key ability (maybe I'm wrong and someone will tell me?), and other nits I'd pick given the chance.

But the big discovery in PHP was that all my ASP data-type problems magically went away. Hours and freaking hours I spent debugging situations where an int was returned from a DLL and ASP string'ed it, or vice versa. There were byref/byval issues I recall as well. We had to build test local harnesses for all our middle tier ASP components because these problems rendered ASP too lame for a debugging platform.

But my original point is really that PHP is useful along a continium of the problem space. Need a quick script? Need a nightly job that cleans up your app? Need web pages? PHP works well for all. ASP, from my experience, hits one for three.

Re:ASP vrs PHP

[omb]

You don't need to buy an editor in the OS world, if you run on a windowd box, install 'cygwin'.

Then, depending on how you OWN head works use 'vi', 'emacs' or 'xeamcs' or 'nedit';

they are all free and almost never go wrong, finally, if you are an aged traditionallist you can still find teco or Bill Joy's vi, (now called nvi).

Re:ASP vrs PHP

[Spinlock_1977]

I initially tried writing PHP in emacs, which I use on Unix systems anyway. But after using ASP for a couple of years, my head got pretty addicted to two features: syntax color coding, and auto-complete. These rather modern features make the code (much) easier to read, and reduce typing and typos rather significantly. Why they never put in macro key abilities I'll never figure out.

Exepting vi (which I'm pretty sure has neither feature), I haven't used the other editors you mentioned - but thanks for the suggestions!

Re:ASP vrs PHP

[Anonymous Coward]

Try using Eclipse with the PHP plugin - it has both of the features that you are looking for.

Re:ASP vrs PHP

[Spinlock_1977]

Thanks for the tip - much appreciated! I hunted around, and found a few sites that talked about the PHP Eclipse plug in, but nowhere could I find:

1) Feature List
2) Download

Got any pointers?

Many thanks,

- spinLock

IBM Backs Mozilla, now PHP

[Dracos]

So when do we get XPCOM bindings for PHP?

Best quote from article

[mgkimsal2]

One industry executive who requested not to be named said that IBM's push into PHP and scripting reflects IBM's disillusionment with the Java standardization process and the industry's inability to make Java very easy to use.

"IBM's been so fed up with Java that they've been looking for alternatives for years," the executive said. "They want people to build applications quickly that tap into IBM back-ends...and with Java, it just isn't happening."

Re:Best quote from article

[aled]

Old joke:
-quick sum 2+2!
-5!
-what? that's wrong!
-well, you want it quick or want it right?

I forgot to mention

[cyranoVR]

Regarding perl:

Perl has use Strict and my()

What is the PHP equivalent?

the OP is correct.

[Anonymous Coward]

speaking as a php and java dev...

you can make java do everything PHP does sure, but out of the box java is quite bare. you have to install a bunch of stuff to get it to that point. it does not come out of the box that way.

this is why PHP is so widely deployed and why java languishes. and as another poster pointed out, it is why mysql is more widely deployed than postgresql. if it takes you obscene contortions to install a usable working platform, people are going to look elsewhere.

Re:the OP is correct.

[sonamchauhan]

As i have no mod points, reposting text of interesting reply by AC:

the OP is correct. (Score:0)
----
by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 26, @07:14PM (#11785905)
speaking as a php and java dev...

you can make java do everything PHP does sure, but out of the box java is quite bare. you have to install a bunch of stuff to get it to that point. it does not come out of the box that way.

this is why PHP is so widely deployed and why java languishes. and as another poster pointed out, it is why mysql is more widely deployed than postgresql. if it takes you obscene contortions to install a usable working platform, people are going to look elsewhere

Re:the OP is correct.

[aled]

Obscene? That would be to compile PHP with Mysql in some platforms, or to bring support for another database or some extension.
In Java it doesn't come in the box because many libraries aren't needed by everyone. And there are CHOICES. For example you can use any database connection pool implementation of your liking. To deploy a library involves just droping a .jar file in a directory. For a database driver just add modifying the connection url in a config file. No recompiling, no nothing.

UltraEdit

[Sean Clifford]

I've developed "Classic ASP" and PHP apps, mostly the former. If you're running Windows and need a great editor, give UltraEdit a whirl. I've used it for 8 years and have found it to be the coolest text/hex editor on the Windows platform. It's fast and cheap, supports macros, etc.

I've got no ties to the UltraEdit folks except as a highly satisfied user.

Classic ASP has a lot of problems; I'm in the midst of a transition to .Net for most projects for Windows clients. I'm delving back into PHP (5 is promising) for some other projects as soon as I ship the .Net stuff on my plate right now.

PHP

[Bojan Zivanovic]

Personaly, I love the PHP+MySQL combination because it enables me to get the job done. Fast That is the main advantage of PHP, quick development. My main gripe about PHP is that there is now unified DB abstraction layer (although ADOdb is great). But, I just learned that it is a planned feature for PHP 5.1, see quote:

Already confirmed for PHP 5.1 is the PHP Data Objects extension (PDO), which unifies the various database APIs so that you can just call pdo_query() rather than mysql_query(), pgsql_query(), or any of the others. It won't replace PEAR::DB because it doesn't abstract the SQL dialects being used, but it will instead complement PEAR::DB. We're also expecting big speed improvements in PHP 5.1, and not just in any single area - all sorts of calls, from switch/case statements to the sort() function and class autoloading are all improved.

Does anyone know when will it be out?

OSDN versus IBM versus Sun!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not Open Source Java & JVM since 2004Q1 when Sun did announce freeing it later?

Sun & IBM are liars!

Even better in Perl 6

[sonamchauhan]

In Perl 6 , it's even better:

say "hello world";

Plus a JIT compiler, register-oriented virtual machine, multi-language support... Yum yum.

There's a lot more to programming that Hello Word!

[cyranoVR]

Why does everybody use the stupid "Hello World" example to "demonstrate" how "inferior" java is? Real Java Projects are lot more than repeated calls to System.out.println()

Try reading the code of a major web site written in perl vs. one in java that uses Tag Libraries (JSP+Struts, JSF, Tapestry, etc) and you will see what I'm talking about!

PS - Ever heard of "auto-completion?"

There's much more to programming than Hello Word!

[cyranoVR]

*sigh*

s/$SUBJECT/Word/World/

s/$SUBJECT/that/than/