Data Execution Protection

esarjeant writes "In addition to a number of other security features, anti-virus vendors are starting to push buffer overflow detection. This will be part of Microsoft's future direction with Data Execution Prevention (DEP) and is already integrated with McAfee 8.0i. So it looks like everyone is going to upgrade all of their software again, will software vendors be able to keep up with the support calls?"

Comments

support calls

[millahtime]

So it looks like everyone is going to upgrade all of their software again, will software vendors be able to keep up with the support calls?

Yes, with more automation, more people on the other end (most likely in India) and more cost passed onto the customer. When I used to work we used to have a saying. "If it weren't for Microsoft, we would all be out of jobs"

Re:great news

[JeanBaptiste]

question. this is _not_ a troll.

So MS is pushing for (what I'm guessing is) some sort of protection for application layer buffer overflows.

Does linux have any sort of thing like this? I know microsoft doesn't hold a monopoly on buffer overflows ;)

Seriously, I'm curious. Thanks.

Looks like...

[eno2001]

Microsoft and Intel are finally catching up to where DEC was back in 1992. DEC Alpha + OpenVMS = no such thing as a buffer overflow and 64 bit processing as well. Whatever happened to the future again? ;P

A Flawed Architecture

[nurb432]

The basic architecture is fundamentally flawed in today's 'consumer grade' computers. Using a strict Harvard architecture, where data is *separate* from code, would eliminate a lot of today's troubles.

Is it too late to change? Well, we have had new chips arise ( like power , or CELL ) so, its not impossible.. just difficult.

Strengths and differences of this vs SELinux

[weave]

I just got done reading an interesting article about SELinux. I'm just curious as to the strengths and weaknesses of each approach.

The SELinux approach sounds to me like a far better way to approach this, actually controlling the permissions of a process with some high degree of precision, down to what files it can use and what other processes it can invoke.

Anyone learned in this stuff care to give a non-flamed opinion of the two approaches strengths and weaknesses? Also, do or will the newer Linux kernels do anything similar regarding stack protection?

Re:Strengths and differences of this vs SELinux

[kbielefe]

This is a good introduction to the main solutions to software exploits in Linux and the different kinds of protection they provide and why.

Most people recommend a combined approach including mandatory access control, chroot jails for services on the internet, stack smash protection, address space layout randomization, non-executable memory pages, firewalls, virus and spyware scanning, intrusion detection, regular vulnerability patching, and user education (did I leave anything out?). No one will tell you that you are safe after implementing just one of these solutions, but the more you do implement, the more secure your system will be.

All of the above have been available on Linux for some time, but are not implemented by default in any popular distribution that I am aware of, which is a shame because I believe it is only a matter of time before someone writes a really nasty worm for Linux. Most Linux users I know seem to believe they are safe with only regular patching and a firewall.

Gentoo is the best distro I have found for implementing these security measures and tries to build them in as an option wherever possible. Gentoo has great documentation on security and is all about custom configuration and compiling. Since some of the above solutions require special compiler technologies, Gentoo is a perfect fit.

Each of those solutions take a certain amount of effort to implement and will break certain existing applications in different ways. Basically, Microsoft is taking the next step and implementing the least disruptive and easiest solution that will provide some protection for all software running on the system. They should probably also compile their own software with stack smash protection and make address space layout randomization available as a next step.

Re:What is it with the buffer overflows?`

[ThosLives]

I don't even think it's due to not checking pointers and NX bits or anything like that. The problem is the way in which our modern OSs map out the memory. Intel chips have the capability to map segments to be either code or data, and the chip will generate a fault if you try to execute anything in a data segment (inherent NX capability). This is part of the segment descriptors used in all programs. The problem is that, as far as I can tell, Windows maps both the code and data segments to the same logical addresses! This is kind of foolish; it should be possible to simply map these two segments to different areas and be completely transparent to the application. As long as applications are behaved and don't have segment overrides all over the place, this should be just fine. Then, when you try to jump to an address that's in the stack, the processor will trip a general protection fault (because the stack must be in a segment defined as data, well, stack to be precise).

Basically this is just laziness in the Windows architecture that overlaps the code and data segments. Separate these and the problem is solved with no new hardware, minimal application rework, and the like.

Incidentally, my perusal of the setup routines in Linux (well, it was version 1.0, so I don't know if this is still the case) show that it also maps code and data to the same actual addresses, which makes it vulnerable as well.

Sure, you can use "smart" languages and NX bits and stuff like that, but it's all assembly at some level, and the processor manufactures actually built in sufficient protection decades ago when they came up with segmented memory. (PowerPC architecture can also distinguish between code and non-code).

I am always amused at how the memory management community hasn't nipped this one in the bud ages ago when the tools to fix it already exist.

Keeping your developers happy

[Aslan72]

The huge problem with McAfee 8.0i has been figuring out a policy that protects from buffer overruns and keeps your developers happy; I've had to loosen the restrictions for those folks because as you put together stuff in vstudio and attempt to debug it, McAfee's Buffer Overrun flags it and doesn't allow it to run :(.

--pete

No Execute = snake oil

[ajs318]

Sorry, but the whole "No Execute" thang is aceite de serpiente, as they say in Madrid. Even the much-vaunted {by people who don't understand it, anyway} Harvard Architecture {i.e. using separate buses for data and instructions, thereby breaking the Neumann principle totally} doesn't work. If the computer can make some kind of decision based on the content of memory location x, then this is tantamount to x being an executable location.

Now, if you had a "Take no action whatsoever based on the content of this location, in fact, whenever you are asked even to read it, always return the same value" flag -- that might prevent the execution of unwanted code. Chances are your system would also be computationally incomplete.

As it stands, NX is trivially defeated by persuading the user to install a simple piece of code -- effectively an emulator.

Basically, NX is answering the wrong question. The question that needs to be asked is "How can we best persuade users not to run arbitrary code when they don't know what the hell it does?" My own answer would be for every processor to have its own, unique instruction set; so only code compiled for that one particular individual processor would ever run on it. {Obviously you'd have to have a compatibility mode for bootstrapping, so you could compile the compiler to compile the unique-ified software; but this would have to be accessed by some deliberate hardware action that no software could get around.} I'm sure that is not impossible; but I'm not sure that it's feasible as long as the likes of Microsoft want to do things their way.