Israeli Army Frowns on D&D

Big Rob found us a gem of a story about the Israeli Army frowning on D&D players. Apparently '18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.' I especially enjoyed the pictures of D&D players with swords, as generally the only thing in my hand during D&D is soda and/or swiss cake rolls. I'm thinking that a few generals should meet up with Jack Chick and have a good long discussion about the evils of role playing.

Comments

There's a good reason

[CSMastermind]

Think about it. D&D attracts imaginitive players who are able to think for themselves. Now does that seem like people you want in your Army? I ship out to Marine boot camp Aug. 1st and people have told me over and over again that when I get there...I shouldn't stand out. D&D players are different...and normally very smart. In an army you want drones who can think for themselves but will never question orders. Why do you think the great dictators killed teachers???

Re:There's a good reason

[deft]

"Think about it. D&D attracts imaginitive players who are able to think for themselves. Now does that seem like people you want in your Army?"

If you are going to make broad generalizations about D&D players, I'll go ahead and say are you sure you want a bunch of pasty white never been outside dice rollers carrying around guns in a battlefield not taking orders because they are "thinking for themselves?".

Nope, but dont worry, this former D&D player was all state, all conference, MVP, etc in HS and college waterpolo. Not all D&D players are your typical generalization. Nor are all of them imaginative.

Re:There's a good reason

[northcat]

Oh please. You're giving too much credit to gamers. The Israeli army frowns upon them because the players are *impressionable*. Almost the opposite of what you said. The players easily adapt to the fantasy world of D&D, so their beliefs can be changed easily than others.

Re:There's a good reason

[dynamo]

Just because you pick up a weapon and follow orders doesn't necessarily mean you are defending freedom. In fact you sign away a huge portion of your existing freedom when you agreed to try.

Remember that you are still responsible for actions you take that are illegal or immoral, even when you are ordered to do so. There seems to be a lot of that going around lately.

Re:IDF has smart people working for them ...

[idontgno]

Wow.

but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.

"They're really smart. They must know what they're talking about."

One possible characteristic not mentioned in TFA was: People who role-play might be more inclined to game the system - definitely not a desirable personality trait to have in personnel deployed in sensitive positions.

WTF? "Game the system"? If you play D&D you realize that "gaming the system" gets you in Shitsville with the game referee (the much maligned "Dungeon Master"). So if anything, D&D players are LESS inclined to "game the system".

I can't decide if you're an innocent clueless asshat or a troll. And I'm a fairly discerning reader. So hats off to you!

Re:You got it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. US military doctrine is built on soldiers who are flexible, able, and motivated. They don't want to see it in bootcamp, or expressed in ways deemed harmful to the unit. But they count on the fact they'll see it expressed in ways harmful to the enemy.

Re:IDF has smart people working for them ...

[rainman_bc]

but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.

There was a point in time where ECT in mental institutions was commonplace because it was endorsed by the American Psychology Association.

Today, we know that ECT only helps certain cases of clinical depression, and is used only in extreme cases when no other solution exists.

If you go further back with the same association, they used to perform labotamies. Do you think that practice is done today?

We need to be critical of experts. You cannot always agree with experts.

Re:IDF has smart people working for them ...

[h4rm0ny]

Being in the military is, by necessity, to be part of a team and the team has to come first,

D&D, and most other role-playing games are exactly the embodiment of this. They are about teams achieving things, and it is not uncommon for one member to make a personal (or ultimate) sacrifice so that the team can achieve their goal. What they seldom have however, is a strict hierachy. This is a good thing in that the team learns to work together through willing co-operation and pooling creativity and knowledge. In practice, this is not how a [modern Western] military unit operates. Instead, they condition soldiers to obey orders and not question.

If there is any basis for the Israeli army's bias other than ignorance, then it is the creativity and ability to think away from the official point of view that is the "problem."

Just too many D&D'ers must ask themselves what is the alignment of my army, and come up with the answer Lawful Evil.

Re:You got it wrong

[Proaxiom]

If the US army was such a terrifically well run organization they would not have ended up turning the Iraqi prison camps into torture chambers. Either there is a serious discipline problem or the senior officers gave illegal orders that the soldiers had a duty to refuse.

I work with a retired Air Force Captain who has the same perspective. As he explains it, either the officers ordered the troops to mistreat the prisoners, or they didn't have control of their troops. Neither is excusable for an officer in the armed forces.

The corollary being that the soldiers who are taking the blame for it are, in a way, scapegoats, because the liability goes up the chain and somebody is getting away with it.

They want very particular types of initiative, in particular the initiative to take command of a situation when necessary. What they do not want is people who question authority.

I did some research a while back on the differences between eastern and western military doctrine in World War II. One of the keys was the the Soviets, for various reasons, allowed very little command flexibility in their ranks. Operations were planned to extremely minute details and all subordinates were expected to stick to the plan no matter what (one big reason was they had poor communications infrastructure to change the plan dynamically).

The west, in contrast, had less detailed plans, and relied on their officers adapting their tactics to the facts on the ground as they appeared.

Re:You got it wrong

[Dolly_Llama]

was gonna add: if the Israeli army doesn't want weirdos who have a skewed sense of reality in their ranks, then they probably shouldn't accept fundamentalist religious types who believe the earth is 6000 years old or that god will send you to hell for all eternity for eating a goat, what with cloven hooves being unclean and all.

Funny you should mention that. Orthodox are not subject to the draft.

Re:You got it wrong

[ivrcti]

Sorry, you're confusing self discipline in personal details with conformation to doctrinal procedures. As an avid D&D player in High School, a West Point grad and an ex M1 officer, I can tell you that if you can't think on your feet and figure out a new way to skin the cat, you won't survive long in mobile armored warfare, let alone dismounted urban warfare.

Recognize also the level you were working at and your particular unit. You didn't get to see how creative your battalion commander had to get to handle his missions with the incredibly lean Ranger force.

If you still doubt me, go back to some of the officers you admired most and ask them about operational and tactical flexibility. Get comfortable, you'll be there a while.