Slashdot Mirror
Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult?
Bubblehead asks: "A few years ago, everybody was talking about returning their copy of Windows to receive a refund. I plan on buying a Laptop shortly, and most manufacturers still insist on shipping it with some version of Windows. I was wondering what the state of the affairs is - there isn't that much information on the net. The most prominent piece of information is this 2003 Linux Journal Report outlining how the author had to go to small claims court to receive a refund. Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"
Never had the chance to do it myself since I build all my own systems. I've kept this in my Bookmarks for some time though:
www.windowsrefund.org
(In the title bar it says windowsrefund.net, but that site times out. Don't know what that's all about...)
How much of a refund would you get? I am guessing that you can not get
the amount MS changes if you buy XP off the shelf. Do they try and
determine just what that vendor paid for it or would they try and
determine how much of the cost of the machine is represented by the OS
installed on it. That is, the difference between a machine sold with
XP installed and the same machine shipped with linux or no OS at all,
for example.
--greg Vulcan quiescent... Q: What machine shutdown with this message?
He tried to return a copy of XP that he purchased at his campus bookstore. First the bookstore refused the return. Then Microsoft refused. So he sold it on eBay. eBay took down the auction, but then later allowed it. Microsoft countered by suing him, and trying to take his 2002 Escort as damages. Good story. I won't ruin the ending.
--H
About seven years ago I too was looking for a laptop and I wanted one without Windows on it. I won't divulge the vendor's name. After a frustrating attempt to explain my "customization" with the service rep, i.e., a "nude" laptop, he transferred me to his manager.... He at first declined to agree to sell me one, but after a moment, and a pause he AGREED... another pause, then he said, "But we'll have to charge you an extra $100 for it." (I am NOT making this up!) Kind of gives you a relative feel for what value (or negative value) Windows added to that laptop, n'est-ce pas?
To the post's question, I am in the similar situation of wanting a new laptop... Have found several that are very close to everything I want and need in a laptop, but ALL come with XP Pro -- which I'm assuming adds $100 to $200 to the cost of the machine and I intend to use the machine for linux ONLY.... and I'm not willing this time to ring one up for MS.
Heh. The last time I asked whether it was possible to buy a laptop without a pre-installed operating system, I was told that selling one could expose the company to litigation. The reason: knowingly selling a non-functional product.
The owls are not what they seem
....here.
Dashboard Widgets
Just got my Windows XP Pro refund from MS last week. Package contained several foreign coins, a coupon booklet, and one human soul.
There's a Starman, waiting in the sky / He'd like to come and meet us, but he hasn't got the time.
the type of people who would want a refund for their copy of windows is the same type of people who not buy a computer from a manufacturer.
having said that, why should one have to go through all this trouble just to get a refund, i've seen an article explaining the very same procedure before, will this go on forever?
as long as the manufacturers can avoid it whenever possible, they will continue to splurt out BS over the phone as long as it's legal and gives them a slight chance that they can avoid the refund.
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
Do you value your time so little that it's worth going through the hassle?
I guess if you're extremely principled, I can see doing it.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Why would you buy a prefab machine with windows knowing that you didn't want it in the first place? If I buy a car and don't like the rims, I don't ask the manufacturer or dealer for a refund. Don't buy from that vendor. No one put a gun to your head. This is stupid.
Any experiences - especially with vendors that do not offer an alternative?"
The wording of that would lead me to belive that there are vendors that do offer an alternative. So once again...this is stupid.
Are you really entitled to a refund? Can you take apart any product and return the parts that you don't want? There are plenty of hardware devices (computer and otherwise) that would retain some functionality if you removed part of the system, but do you have the right to pick and choose what you feel you need, and return those that you don't, do you?
To use the (slightly flawed) car analogy, can I return the spare tire because I don't feel I need it and ask for $50 back? The car works just fine without it, just like a PC works just fine without windows. To use a hardware/software analogy, can I buy a Cisco product that uses some IOS features I don't need, then tell Cisco I will simply remove the features and expect them to write me a check for "returning" them?
My sig is blank, I typed this by hand.
Can't get Coral Cache or Mirrodot. Google cache turned up this result:
http://216.239.59.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahtt p% 3A%2F%2Fwww.linuxjournal.com%2Farticle%2F7040
--------------
Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a writ
I also have a page of linux-preinstalled and no-OS laptop vendors. By my count there are at least 20 vendors that sell linux and no-os laptops, so nobody should have an excuse anymore for whining about not being able to find linux laptops.
P.S. All you currently looking for a laptop...please email me if anything on my list needs to be updated.
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
Is Obtaining a Windows Refund Still Difficult?
No. It is practically impossible. Next question, please.
If you're going to use /. to advertise your blog, at least conceal it better...
Le français vous intéresse?
The server is already slow, so here it is:
Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
By Steve Oualline on Tue, 2003-07-29 23:00.
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for one. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a written letter describing what was said and why you're unhappy with it. Remember you are creating a record for the judge.
At some point in this process you'll either get your r
If you're asking for extra labor, you should pay extra money.
If all their drives are pre-imaged with whatever selection OSs their inventory system can tolerate, that's good for 99.9995% of all their customers, why shouldn't the guy who wants to be different and have the work done for him pay for it?
I hear they're more difficult about OS X refunds, though.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Simple Solution: Include a bootable Linux distro with the laptop. It proves it is working, but doesn't alter it in any way. It is about as close to free as you can get (cost of a blank cd). I would, in fact, recommend trying out the laptop with your bootable distro of choice before buying it. (if you can find the model you want in a brick-n-mortar store)
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
No, but you could sell that spare tire without the automobile manufacturer suing you.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
i question the objectivity of any review of an OS that minimizes the fact that the reviewer's keyboard doesn't work
Yeah, cos naming a Linux distro after a penguin was just an absurd and outlandish suggestion, wasn't it?
the layman's guide to computer science
So the guy buys this laptop. However, at this point in time he hasn't accepted the Microsoft EULA for the operating system. This EULA specifically states: "YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE PRODUCT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND."
If he hasn't agreed, he can return it for a full refund. If no-one is willing to give him a refund then Microsoft is in breach of its own license.
OT: if MS has breached its requirements to a person, is that person then justified in breaching his/her requirements? For example, the one about not decompiling. Just a thought.
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
here
Seriously, you get your Unix kernel, CLI shell, X server, terrific hardware-software integration (check out the sleep feature), etc.
Admittedly, Apple needs to bundle more popular productivity applications.
--
"Extra Anus Kills Four-Legged Chick" -- Headline
From the link:
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
I think by his reasoning he was owed $499,985.00.
My
There reason everyone is "going nuts over this" is because the windows install that ships on these laptops has a license agreement that says something to the effect of: If you do not agree with this license you can return this software for a full refund. When you buy an "audio setup" or a car (an analogy in other posts) you aren't licensing the speakers or the tires; you know what you are buying. When you buy a computer, you are buying the hardware AND licensing the software. But, a clause (self imposed by Microsoft) gives you the privilage of returning the software. I'm not an expert in contract law, but there may be legal reasons that Microsoft is forced to add this clause.
Go ahead. Buy whatever you want, pre-installed. Then, wipe the drive, return the CD's, and take a tax write-off on the software expense. Surely MS wouldn't want to obstruct justice by refusing to deal with your CPA/Accountant, nor would they want to reveal the true cost of the software?
C|N>K
OK ok. I haven't read the EULA, but I am sure at the end of the three thousand words (or whatever), It says [paraphrasing] that if you don't agree, send it back for a refund.
If you think about it, how else could it be a binding contract?
I'm not a lawyer though, and anything is possible.
Move along... there is no sig here.
> Then I wind up giving them away
Yeah, I'll take one.
Last summer my wife bought a Toshiba notebook. It came with Windows XP Home and the manufacturer refused to send a real install cd. (Even with a new copy of Windows, though, the system was still cheaper than the other notebooks she looked at with comparable specs; this one cost US$1k, at which point IBM notebooks are barely getting started.) When she opened the bok, a sticker on the shrinkwrap said:
So, yeah, Toshiba won't let you return the operating system by itself.
was your comment really worth sharing? is mine? people do THINGS. perhaps he should just quit acting up and watch more t.v.?
I work in Gateway customer service so here's the official policy on this (and it was hard enough to find when I got hired and was curious so it'll probably be a bitch if you call and get one of the largely incompetent people who work there).
You cannot buy a computer without Windows on it. We simply will not do it. The way the ordering system is set up we cannot get it to go through no matter how sympathetic we are. Likewise if you purchase the system Gateway has determined that you agreed to the license the moment you power on the system. If you decide not to accept the license they will only accept the return of the software if you return the entire system (this being true of any pre-installed software that you want to return).
In other words don't buy Gateway. Then again, even if you aren't interested in the refund don't buy Gateway. They sell crap and their customer service (employees, polcies, turn-around times, etc.) are crap. While I wouldn't have bought one before I started working there I sure as hell wouldn't now.
I bought my laptop (A Sager 5690 - model no longer sold on their site) from http://www.discountlaptops.com/, and I couldn't be happer with it. No operating system, great value, and excellent customer service. I also paid about $1,000 less for my laptop than I would have paid if I bought it from Dell (P4 w/hyperthreading, 2GB ram, 1400x1050 LCD, over a year ago). If you don't believe me read their buyer ratings at the bottom of their web site. I actually had to return my laptop for repairs because of a faulty motherboard, and they paid for all the shipping and had my laptop back to me in a few days. The owner of the company emailed me several times before I bought the laptop and answered questions I had about it (like what ethernet chip it had), and made *objective* suggestions about which laptop I should buy. The owner also contacted me several times during my warranty work episode and I felt extremely comfortable that he was making sure that I was well taken care of by Sager. (Sager and Chembook are two of the main manufacturers that they sell on their site. These are the companies that sell to places like Alienware, Hypersonic PC, Pro-star, Voodoo PC and many others. I'm running Ubuntu Hoary on it now, and have not had any problems at all. Before this I ran Fedora Core 2 and 3 with no problems (save the faulty motherboard).
I can't recommend discountlaptops.com enough. I don't work for them or anything like that, I am just a happy, happy customer. You can bet my next laptop will be from them as well.
-- http://www.MindBlowingPhotos.com
Photography inspired by music, nature and life itself.
Hi, I'd like a hotdog. Two bucks? Great! Hey, listen, do you have ketchup and mustard and relish and stuff? Over there? Cool. How much does it cost?
Oh, it's included in the price? Right on! Thanks!
Ok, so, but that ketchup and stuff, it must cost you something, right? I buy ketchup at Safeway and the smallest bottle they sell is a buck.
Right, yeah, cool.
Ok, so, can I have a plain hotdog, for a dollar? See, I have my own sauce, I brought it from home. It's home-made, see. I downloaded the recipe from the internet. You want some of my sauce? You can have it for free, I bet tons of your customers would love this stuff, it's great.
No? Ok, well anyway: How about that dollar-off, plain hotdog?
What? But, see, I'm not gonna use any of your ketchup. I'm leaving it in the bottle. If you give it to me anyway, I'll have to scrape it off, see... you might as well just keep it. And since ketchup costs a buck, I'll have my hotdog for a dollar off.
No. Seriously man, here's the two bucks for the hotdog. If you won't give me a buck back for not using the ketchup, would you at least figure out how much that ketchup costs per-hotdog, and then take THAT off the price? Even if it's only ten cents per hotdog, I should still get the refund 'cause I'm not using the ketchup.
Ok, yeah, I could take some ketchup and then re-sell it on ebay, but really, why would someone buy my used ten-cents worth of ketchup... it might be dirty. Plus you can't really sell open ketchup like that. I'm sure there's a regulation. Who knows what I'm selling? It might not be real ketchup. It could be filthy, full of viruses. I'm sure Heinz would not like me representing it as their product.
So, c'mon, one hotdog for a buck, or, show me your balance sheet and then we'll just take off what the ketchup really costs. At least.
Huh? OK, fine, screw you! I'm going home and making my own damn hotdog! Dammit!
I am allowed to criticize you: you are not allowed to criticize me. Sorry, that's just how things are.
Is the Pope Catholic?
No, he's dead.
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Malcolm solves his problems with a chainsaw,
And he never has the same problem twice.
They have a category for vendors that sell laptops (and desktops too) without an OS installed.
Too lazy to create a sig...
Have you actually successfully done this?
Well, as a scam, no. Legitimately buying a single unit to evaluate, yes.
Of course, they actually did image the drive (I suspect it would cost take most major OEMs more than the price of a single copy of XP to change their standard McDonald's-like assembly line of PC creation for one machine), but waved a whopping $100 off the $3500 price tag.
And no, I don't refer to Dell specifically... Though from my experience with them, I strongly suspect they'd throw in a free blow-job from Michael Dell's own mother if I made a large enough sale conditional on it.
So, why don't you buy a Linux-only laptop then?
...
Terrasoft Solutions sell Linux-only laptops, desktops and servers using Fedora Core 2 based YDL.
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/
They specialise in PPC only, so if you insist on an x86 powered machine then you'd have to find another such shop. I am confident there must be companies just like Terrasoft who specialise in x86 based Linux pre-installed gear.
In fact, a quick google search for "linux preinstalled laptops" shows the this very interesting site as first hit
http://mcelrath.org/laptops.html
according to that site, there are plenty of options for people interested in x86 based Linux-only laptops.
the macintosh asterisk mailing list http://www.astm
and got an apologetic letter too. They EULA says that if you do not agree to the license, you can return it to the retailer for a refund.
I had to take watford electronics to court (small claims), though they backed down about a week before they court appearance.
The interesting thing about their defense was it was "The EULA is not binding on us because we are a third party, the license being between microsoft and yourself".
My reply was that they purchased the OEM copy with that EULA and that it was I that had no relationship to MS. If they didn't want to be bound by the EULA then they could have put a different version of Windows on there.
I bought a laptop late last year. One of the things I was considering was asking for a refund for windows. However, on opening the cardboard box, I found that the laptop was enclosed in shrinkwrap with a bright yellow sticker attached. The sticker said something to the effect of "This product is sold with Windows, if you don't want Windows, then please return the whole thing unopened. Refunds will not be given for just the software, and by opening the packet you agree to this."
... don't like the mess, then they could stop offering the refunds when one does not agree to the EULA.
But they will not do it because then they would fall foul of legislation in most places that forbids to tie in sales of one product (computer) only if you buy another (Windows).
The offer of the refund is not from the goodness of their hearts. Making almost imposible for consumers to get something they are entitled to is immoral and your criticism of people trying to get what is rightly theirs is ridiculous and preposterous.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Are you Billy Gates? Then yes, by all means pay somebody else to get a computer, your time may be literally valued at millions.
Are you a regular guy that would be doing something else completely unproductive otherwise? Then your time is not worth as much as you think, saving 100 bucks could be worth the hassle.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.