The Eight Stages of Permadeath Debate

MMOG Designer and commentator Damion Schubert has up an article on the constantly renewing Permadeath debate. Permadeath is the concept of permanent death for a character in a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. The design hasn't shown up in any major commercial games yet but, to borrow a phrase, the soul still burns. His commentary is a great synopsis of the debate, from the rearing of its head to the final bitter back-biting threads. From the article: "3. Captain Obvious Speaks. 'People don't like to lose their stuff.' 'It isn't fun.' 'It's hardcore, and only hardcore games will ever use it.' 'Any game which depends on the internet for its reliability has no place permanently taking away all your stuff.' 'Why in God's name would anyone consider this idea a good or compelling idea?'"

Comments

The idea is dead

[yotto]

It is hypocritical for this guy to keep bringing this idea up again every time it gets killed.

Re:The idea is dead

[Bastian]

It is hypocritical for this guy to keep bringing this idea up again every time it gets killed.

Not if he starts the debate from the very beginning each time.

Hardcore...

[Southpaw018]

The hardcore market would love this. It's the ultimate sense of danger, lending reality to a fantasy world. Most everyone else, however, doesn't. The quote about losing your stuff is absolutely, wholly true. Case in point: the success of World of Warcraft. When you die, you lose a couple dozen silver each time at most. No xp, no lives, no item penalties. Nothing. The other night I must have died a dozen times or more in attempting a difficult raid without enough people and I racked up 3g in repairs (for those who don't play WoW, at max level you can make 3g back with 15 minutes' lightweight work or 10 minutes hard grinding).

People love that. Hell, I love that. It encourages raiding and confrontations and risk, and pretty much adds to the enjoyment of the game knowing that attempting something difficult or even stupid won't set you back. It's just fun.

Re:Hardcore...

[nc_yori]

That of course begs the question "does anyone give a damn?" I'm not trying to be rude, just pointing out that WoW and the like are games, nothing more. When a game has built-in mechanics that cause frustration in most/all of its players, is it really that well designed?

I know the whole point of hardcore play is the added element of challenge, but is there really a point to implementing something that less than 1% of players will enjoy.

Another thing to consider is the human factor. I could only begin to imagine the tech support headaches stemming from people who have suffered the effects of hardcore play without being prepared to deal with them. About to die? Pull your ethernet cord, let the game log that you timed out, log on, bitch out tech support for you dying because of "lag" or "being disconnected."

I think he fundamental problem behind hardcore play in games that you pay actual money for per month is the risk for both the player and the provider. Players risk losing months of work they've payed for and providers risk being on the recieving end of a lawsuit when jackass player X loses a character due to server lag and demands retribution.

Permadeath in tabletop RPGs

[Yert]

In every dice & paper RPG I run, Permadeath is "on". I don't give second chances, and if you do something stupid, make a bad roll, or generally just get ganged up on, you're dead. End of story, get a clean sheet of paper and roll up a new character. You don't find many D&D or Vampire games where the GM announces "Free rez for your character if they die, just gotta start back at the nearest town." I also don't have a problem with group dissension - ie, PvP. If one player decides to be a dick and "accidentally" pop another player's character in the back of the head when no one is looking during a firefight, and he makes his rolls, then it happens. On the flip side, the game system I run doesn't have "classes" or "levels", and character generation can pop out a 70 yr old War Vet as easily as an 18 yr old street punk. You can improve your character's skills and stats, But the net effect of all this is that a year old (real time) character doesn't have that much of an edge on a 5 minute old (real time) character, and if he slips up when he's offing his own party, he'll be next. I think permadeath in a game will greatly increase interest in role playing and team building, and PvP won't be much of an issue - because you won't respawn, and eventually the victims will team up against you. I'd play in a permadeath game in a heartbeat. More challenge, more fun, less grind. Just my take on it.