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Samsung HDD Merges Flash, Conventional Storage

Posted by timothy on from the layering-the-layers dept.

geekboxjockey points "This is a link to a story about a hybrid hard-drive technology from Samsung that involves the use of flash memory and conventional storage. A very interesting idea that could provide noticeable energy useage/speed improvements for HDD-based portable devices."

26 of 152 comments (clear)

  1. Suppose you had 10GB of primary memory... by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah ... to be used for something called a ***CACHE***.

    If you had 10GB of memory in a Linux/BSD box you'd get this "boost" too ...

    As for saving costs by lowering failure ... let's hope they don't use cheap flash controllers. Of all the flash based mp3 players I've had [usually got for free with a purchase] most of them fail on a lengthy write or two...

    More so let's hope we can still replace this hd+flash combo with a coventional HD.

    I know for my Presario laptop [Compaq 2100CA] the replacement HD [Hitachi 60GB] is ==>$710 CAD== while a faster Samsung 40GB is $90 ...

    So what i'm trying to say is ... less ass rapage please.

    Tom

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    1. Re:Suppose you had 10GB of primary memory... by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Funny

      I did get a replacement on my own. Hence the $90 for the 40GB drive...

      The history went

      1. Drive makes clicking noises
      2. Tom sends it to Futureshop to get serviced
      3. 56 days later I get laptop back
      4. Laptop was not fixed, still clicks
      5. Several months later it totally dies
      6. Tom goes to local shop and buys replacement drive for $90.

      Essentially the stores/manufacturers ALREADY rape us seven ways from sunday. This combo drive is just another way to potentially lock people down.

      Tom

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      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  2. Swap File by eXzite · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Will the OS have a way of selectively writing to the flash? What about swap files, etc, which will change all the time?

    This is great stuff though, swap files aside, most people could probably do everything they ever need from their laptop within 1Gig of flash, during a single work session.

    1. Re:Swap File by Janitor · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thats where the 10GB of primary memory comes it, so you won't need to swap. They thought of everything.

    2. Re:Swap File by MSZ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For Linux, sure.
      For Windows, not unless they replace the memory management. It normally uses swap even when there's plenty of free memory and this is supposed to be a feature, not a design bug...

      --
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  3. A gimmick by Saven+Marek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    flash memory like this in a hard drive is a gimmick, I think samsung are hoping nobody realises how few the write times are on flash memory, so you'll need to regularly replace the limited write time flash memory when it's worn out fairly often

    So what happens when trying to detect when the flash memory has been written to too many times? afaik this isn't easily done, so you end up dumping broken data to the disk until you notice "whooops my spreadsheet suddenly doesn't work that I need in 30 minutes or the boss will have my ass".

    1. Re:A gimmick by Cruithne · · Score: 2, Informative

      So what happens when trying to detect when the flash memory has been written to too many times?

      Actually, in most newer flash-based storage devices, this is already accounted for. Basically, the data is verified by attempting to read back the data - if it reads, you know you're fine, as the "space" in memory will only become "worn out" on a write.

      If a "space" fails verification, it is added to a list of known bad sectors - exactly how IDE drives have functioned for the past decade or so.

    2. Re:A gimmick by St.+Arbirix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They talk in the article about Longhorn using 64-bit memory addressing so you'll be getting gobs of main memory. When your page table is 10GB like they mention in the article then there would be little to no reason for another paging system inside the harddrive. As much as I like modularity this is just silly.

      It's definitely a gimmick, and a nearly useless one when everyone's upgraded to their 64-bit systems. Do you want your memory cached on something connected to the FSB or do you want it done out on a device? I don't even understand why they're trying to get into this game.

      It's like making a pencil that never wears down but putting the same old erasers on it.

      --
      Direct away from face when opening.
    3. Re:A gimmick by oc255 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Gimmick? Hmm...

      This is just electronic writes. Those who have worked with a high-performance SAN like the Hitachi 9900, Sun 6920, know that electronic writes is where all the performance comes from. When our SAN's 4gig of cache goes offline, my DBAs come running and everyone complains about terrible write/read speeds.

      Electronic writes (in a good amount) means that the data flies into memory and later on the disk system pumps the data out to the disk platters. Netapp is really great at doing this kind of operation. Talk to someone with a Netapp and they'll tell you that you can watch all the activity lights on an array light up in a fury of activity with the Netapp head pushes from cache->disk. It's really fantastic. Of course, it's really expensive too.

      I'm not saying that Samsung's disks are going to be enterprise-class. But I'm hoping that this cache thing catches on to make SATA2 (or whatever) based arrays feasible for desktops. Imagine a chain of large-cache drives on desktops, large-cache single drives on laptops ... For example, if you had 128MB of cache per drive, then an array of 8 disks would have 1gig of cache. That would be so great for the power-user. The Sun T4 bricks cost $50k and they have 2gb of cache per controller. 2gb of electronic writes/read = amazing performance.

      I can't wait to learn more about the quality and speed of the disk cache. It's what I've always wanted to see in consumer grade disks.

    4. Re:A gimmick by mp3phish · · Score: 2, Informative

      YOu don't understand the fundamental difference between this and a "cache"

      This is NOT a cache. It is a permanent storage area on the hard drive which does not require the hard drive to spin up. I know one thing, in windows XP, my laptop hard drive spins up every 10 minutes because XP likes to do tons of shit even when i'm not using it. All it does is write 1 or 2K onto the disk, and for that it spins the damn drive up... every time. Witht his embedded flash memory it can write to it, and only after a long period of time, when those 1K writes add up to 128MB.. then the drive will spin up and copy all that flash ram into the hard drive... and the cycle starts over..

      You see, most people who are using their drive to browse the web, work on a word file, IM chat, webcam chat, do email, etc etc... they aren't using their hard drive more than 128MB.. probably at most they are reading/writing to and from the drive in less than 64mb in a few hours time (provided you already have the applications loaded and you don't waste disk space on web cache) You save yoru word file every 5 minutes, but why spin up the disk and keep it running that whole time when all you are doing is writing out a few K every once in a while? You send and recieve a few emails, but why spin up your disk just to use it to send an email?

      The point here is that battery life will significantly improve (probably by about double), and hard drive MTBF will significantly improve (probably more than double) in a laptop if you use this small flash PERMANENT (not cache) storage while your disk is spun down...

      (notice that the flash memory is never used while the disk is spun up.. it is only used while the disk is spun down and it wants to try not to wake it up).

      --
      Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.
    5. Re:A gimmick by ModMeFlamebait · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is just a matter of time before this is implemented on the OS level (in linux, macOS, and longhorn)

      yeah, /proc/sys/vm/laptop_mode and associated acpi scripts are sure a long way into the future. not. it has been present in 2.4 linux kernels for quite a time. when longhorn comes out, it'll be *years* behind schedule

      --
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  4. software implementation... by Nova1313 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Isn't this already implemented in software in some form. As memory cache of sorts. I understand that with memory if you loose power you loose data so this just seems to act as a bridge. What happens if the power goes out and data has yet to be written but is in flash. Is what is in there automatically committed to the disk on the next power up? The article doesn't go into much detail unfortunately. It seems like a good idea if implemented properly but for me everytime I launch a new copy of explorer on a windows box it has to spin up the disk. So unless you keep the most frequently used applications in memory I'm not sure this will cut down on writing except for with small data files being saved.

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  5. Nah... by ArbiterOne · · Score: 3, Funny

    It won't really take off unless they release an amusing Flash video involving dancing flash memory-HDD pairs singing about the joys of dual storage.

  6. Hardvaporware ? by alexhs · · Score: 3, Funny

    > The Hybrid Hard Drive, developed by Samsung and Microsoft, is meant for mobile PCs running Longhorn, the next version of the Windows operating system.

    So the other hard drive manufacturers will have a loooong time to do the same...

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    1. Re:Hardvaporware ? by mp3phish · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You imply that a powerbook made by Apple Computer would somehow implement futuristic types of storage faster than other platforms. You might need a history lesson:

      Apple was the last mainstream manufacturer in the industry to implement USB2.0 into their systems for use with Hi Speed USB flash memory devices.

      Apple was the last mainstream manufacturer in the industry to install SATA drives into their systems.

      Apple was the last mainstream manufacturer in the industry to install DVD burners into their systems.

      Apple was the last mainstream manufacturer in the industry to move from SCSI to IDE for consumer systems.

      I highly doubt Apple will be the first manufacturer to implement holographic storage into their laptops. As they are usually the last manufacturer to move to new types of storage technology in their products.

      --
      Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.
    2. Re:Hardvaporware ? by evilviper · · Score: 2, Informative
      Apple was the first mainstream manufacturer in the industry to implement USB into their systems (iMac, May/August 1998).

      No, you're COMPLETELY wrong there. USB had been installed in PCs for a LONG time before Apple's iMac. I've personally got a DEC PentiumPro system with USB ports, from 1995 IIRC. What Apple actually did, was popularize them, by forcing their customers to use only USB peripherals. I'm still using it as my firewall, loaded up with 192MB of old SIMMs I don't have any other use for...

      The ironic thing about Apple pushing USB was, it undermined their attempts to popularize their own firewire standard. They pushed USB for slow devices, and firewire for fast devices, and instead, USB took over for almost all devices, fast and slow.
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  7. FROM Here to Eternity by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How about booting from the HD, then "caching" the computed startup image in the FROM? At shutdown, store kernel/OS variables in a table. At next boot, just suck in the image from FROM, and update runtime changes (clocks, counters, etc) from the table. Corrupt images get dropped by rebooting from HD when necessary. It's like notebook "hibernate", but stores the "clean" initial boot state instead of the (possibly corrupt) final OS state. Linux's initrd boot ramdisk phase offers a golden opportunity to just restart from the image cached in quick FROM. If Samsung patched the bootloader, it could sell a lot of these drives. I'd pay as much for a 100GB platter-only drive as I would for a 40GB boot hybrid drive.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  8. Déjà entendu ? by alexhs · · Score: 5, Funny
    "Let's suppose you had 10GB of primary memory--probably everything that you do could fit in memory," Allchin (Microsoft Windows chief) said.

    10 GiB ought to be enough for everyone...

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    I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
  9. Actually this story isn't entirely accurate by gru3hunt3r · · Score: 5, Informative

    There have been several vendors of Flash Based hard disks for a while. This is the first hybrid flash+magnetic drive -- and even this isn't all that different of an idea than say a Compaq smart array controller with battery backed write cache which used NVRAM to store data. It's innovative and i'd definitely buy a laptop that had it.

    I think many slashdotters will miss the big picture. This is mostly a power saving utility -- and it could offer performance gains assuming the files you use are available on the flash and the drive doesn't need to be spun up. (Of course when the drive DOES need to get spun up, plan on having a *really* long access time so I think this will be negligble). Buy basically it means you can leave auto-save on Microsoft Word enabled and not drain your battery.

    BUT since we're on the subject i'm a huge fan of flash only drives, they have several special applications because of their access times (in nanoseconds instead of milliseconds), extremely reliable (no moving parts, read/write cycles in the billions + ECC checking) and high bandwith they are NOT ideal for situations such as swap (JUST BUY MORE RAM IT'S CHEAPER AND FASTER!!) but instead they are perfect for situations were you need persistent storage of highly accessible files e.g. binlogs on a database.

    You can easily bump up the performance of MySQL or Oracle using one of these drives for A LOT less

    There is a company called BitMicro http://www.bitmicro.com/ which produces ATA and SCSI, and Fibre Channel flash only hard disks.
    Using a flash only drive you will get a dramatic performance bump in any transaction database by storing the transaction files on the database.

    1. Re:Actually this story isn't entirely accurate by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, I've burned up several flash sticks because I write to them constantly at work (usually 60-100 Mb application setup sets) so I can attest to the limited number of write cycles. Ordinary DRAM parts aren't suitable for battery backup unless you include refresh logic and in any event they always draw substantial amounts of power. The solid-state drives I've used have CMOS static RAM on them. CMOS logic gates don't draw much current unless they're in transition, which makes them ideal candidates for long-term battery standby. Being true RAM (instead of flash, which is basically just a modified EEPROM anyway) there's no particular limit on the number of reads or writes. On the other hand, they don't have the bit density of dynamic RAM, and the cost per bit is much higher. But they still are excellent for industrial applications where you want reliability (harsh environments of one kind or another) or where a system has to boot very rapidly.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  10. Flash and harddrives by karvind · · Score: 3, Informative
    CeBIT 2005 had demonstration of flash only hard drives. Since flash memory is considerably more expensive than magnetic mass storage - a hybrid approach is a better compromise.

    Also from WinHEC, samsung is not the only player. The disk will be manufactured initially by Samsung, Hitachi and Seagate, and other manufacturers will be announced later.

    More details on Samsung's OneNAND hybrid technology:

    OneNAND Flash memory has been incorporated into the design of Microsoft Corp.'s prototype Hybrid Hard Drive (HHD), the first fully functional disk drive to combine NAND-based Flash with rotating storage media.

    The hybrid hard drive prototype uses 1 Gigabit OneNAND(TM) Flash as both the write buffer and boot buffer. In the hybrid write mode, the mechanical drive is spun down for the majority of the time, while data is written to the Flash write buffer. When the write buffer is filled, the rotating drive spins and the data from the write buffer is written to the hard drive.

    The hybrid drive saves power by keeping the spindle motor in idle mode almost all the time, while the operating system writes to the OneNAND write buffer. Moreover, by using OneNAND Flash with hard disk drive technology, disk drive performance is not compromised relative to conventional disk drives. This is due, in large part, to OneNAND's ultra-fast read speeds, which can be fully leveraged during the flushing of the contents of OneNAND's write buffer to the rotating drive. In addition, since the Samsung hybrid disk drive operates at a lower temperature than traditional rotating media, it greatly reduces the possibility of shock and impact damage, improving the overall reliability of the disk subsystem.

    While the cost of hybrid disk drives may slightly increase with the addition of OneNAND, any increase will be mitigated by several factors, including lower maintenance costs, 95 percent power savings when the disk is not spinning, faster boot time and substantially increased reliability. All of these changes are crucial to the ever increasing needs of today's mobile customer, making it likely that hybrid hard drive technology will enjoy rapid market adoption.

  11. What's so innovative about it? by DrLex · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So if I get it right, this is just a drive with a very large, albeit slow, memory cache. They expect the users to address their data in separate chunks of 128MB. As soon as you go outside of this chunk you'll have to spin up the drive to read the file -- which will, of course, reduce the responsiveness of the system. Moreover, drives don't only wear out due to the disk spinning. Every spin-up and spin-down cycle causes additional wear, so I doubt this idea will reduce the failure rate for laptop disks. Actually this article looks more like publicity for Longhorn...

  12. Very short lifetime.... by yani · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It seems that most people are forgetting a very important fact - flash memory has a limited number of writes. For normal usage (e.g. sd card/usb memory key) you will never encounter these, but as soon as you do something like this...

    This just doesn't make sense to me, instead of caching in system memory (how the power savings are done in linux laptop-mode) they are caching to flash which is slower, the only advantage is the data won't be lost in flash.

    However what about swap? Does the flash cache distinguish between swapfile writes/normal data? If not you just bought a hard drive with a very short lifetime. Even if it only uses flash for normal data writes, this drive will have a considerably shorter lifetime.

  13. Can we please stop calling everything technology? by cgenman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They're using 64 bit technology. The other guys have dual-memory technology. I have technology on my wrist that allows me to tell time.

    Can we please stop calling everything technology? At one point the word had meaning, but it's been so over used now that it means nothing. Now it's just a way to make something look more impressive than it actually is, a for-nerds buzzword. "Our emergent 64 bit technology allows for vertical integration along all of your supply-chain specifications." It's a painfully overused buzzword. 64 bit technology. Plastics technology. SUV technology. Technological technology.

    Some things still deserve the term. Pretty much anything fusion-related can be given the term fusion technology. But the term technology is being applied to a lot of things that are just design choices. Win 3.1 could have had 64 bit memory addressing, they just didn't because it would have been a huge wasted of prescious resources. Calling it "64 bit technology" is like saying a car has 4-door technology: it's a design choice, not a radical piece of tech.

    And these damn kids keep throwing their frisbies on my lawn.

    --
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  14. Not Nuff by eSims · · Score: 2, Funny
    "Let's suppose you had 10GB of primary memory--probably everything that you do could fit in memory," Allchin said.

    Yeah, everything except Longhorn :-p

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  15. Re:History repeats itself... by alexhs · · Score: 2, Funny

    > Yeah, and you are repeating a poster from 5 minutes ago.

    Haaa, but... there is a difference !
    He is getting an insightful mod while I'm getting a funny !

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