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The Future of Windows Graphic Technology
Ben writes 'Extremetech has an article discussing the future of Windows graphics technology. The article uses information from presentations at the recent WinHEC, and outlines the Windows Graphics Foundation and other technologies expected to make an appearance in Longhorn. Particularly interesting is the Longhorn Display Driver Model: 'With it, Microsoft is aiming for that ideal situation of 'graphics just works.' For example, if you upgrade a graphics driver today, you typically have to reboot the system. One example of the 'graphics just works' mantra is one of LDDM's goals of allowing installation of graphics drivers without needing to restart the system.'
Wow upgrading a driver without having to reboot? Amazing! This along with alpha transparency in IE7 and a full-fledged journaling file system should launch Microsoft into a new age of technology, the 90's.
For example, if you upgrade a graphics driver today, you typically have to reboot the system. One example of the 'graphics just works' mantra is one of LDDM's goals of allowing installation of graphics drivers without needing to restart the system.
Didn't I hear the same "no rebooting" line with Win2k and with WinXP? Not that I wouldn't enjoy that, it's just that I've lost faith in these types of claims.
-Valiss
How often does the average user update the video drivers in Windows? Do they really care that it requires a reboot? I would guess that less than 0.1% of my Windows reboots are prompted by updating the video drivers.
how often do you load a new grafics driver?
I am amazed at how many software packages still require a reboot. IMHO this is much more annoying.
love is just extroverted narcissism
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Longhorn
Hey Steve,
Has the research team figured out why the *nix machines don't have to reboot all the time?
Bill
I pity the foo that isn't metasyntactic
This brings a question to mind -- does anyone know exactly why Windows still requires reboots for these kinds of things? This makes my life positively MISERABLE.
A typical experience for me... I have all of my machines set up dual boot, all with some distro of linux, and either XP Home Edition, or XP Pro. I do most of (but not all) my work on the linux side, but when I do boot over to XP inevitably it's more than just one reboot, it's almost always at least 2, and many times it's 3! (not 3 factorial, just 3 exclamation). Typically this is a result of something in my XP environment updating itself, be it Windows itself, virus protection updates, or just the vendors download of updates. Invariably a download occurs (after granting permission), and then the update, and then the dreaded popup dialog box with some such message, "For the updates to take effect you must restart your computer. Restart now?"
And some of those dialog boxes offer no clickable option other than "OK" which means reboot and you have to jump through an extra cognitive hoop and remember to click the "X" in the corner of the dialog window (to defer the reboot).
On the other side... I don't remember the last time I've had to reboot my linux for any kind of updates, and I do get updates in linux on a pretty regular basis (as many as in Windows). What gives? I don't think the architecture for XP is so arcane it can't support recognizing and using updates without a reboot. Does anyone have solid commentary on this? (Not that my life's going to get any better around this anytime soon -- but it'd be nice to know if there's some bonified (sp?) reason for this step-into-the-twentieth-century XP behavior.)
Apple brought out 10.4 about 17 months after 10.3. I wonder if 10.5 will appear on a similar interval and be out in late 2006. I can see Steve Jobs raining on Bill's parade with another OS release.
I can certainly understand refusing to reboot a server that needs to be on 24/7. Fine. But why do people get their panties in a bunch over rebooting their own personal machines? I run Fedora Core 3, yes it takes minutes for it to boot up, but when I do I usually don't sit there staring at it. When I turn my computer on in the morning I do something else while booting up, like brush my teeth. This development manager friend of mine looked at me strangely when I kept rebooting my laptop to fix networking issues. Why do you reboot your machine so much? Because I don't know how to selectively start and restart processes. Because I don't know which ones to start and restart. With names like ntpd, how would one know? If I restart processes, don't others depend on them? Won't they get hosed? Etc. Etc. Or I can waste a whole five minutes of my life not worrying about those things and just reboot the damn thing. And chat with my friends in the meanwhile.
"The NVIDIA kernel module has a kernel interface layer which must be compiled specifically for the configuration and version of the kernel you are running. "
For the win.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
The new engine in DNF won't use displays, as it will pipe the image directly into your brain. It'll be done WHEN IT'S DONE, dammit.
I am no longer wasting my time with slashdot
Is Norton (or others) really doing something at the kernel level
Yes. They scan before the CreateFile function even returns.
Internet Explorer (which I never intentionally use)... why would that require a reboot?
Windows doesn't let you replace in use files, it doesn't have to be something kernel level. Since explorer is really internet explorer, you either need to shut down the interface or reboot.
We have Xorg, and Cairo/SVG, and maybe GTK or Qt, but not a complete, end-to-end platform
Actually there has been a bunch of movement towards a better graphics architecture. Cairo is mostly driving things at the moment, because it provides a unified API for 2D graphics on X, Max OS X, Win32, and PDF/Printer output. Because of this Mozilla.org are planning on completely replacing all their graphics, not just SVG, in GFX 2.0 with Cairo (except possibly embedded stuff). I suspect that as they get going there will significant cross flow from the Mozilla side into improving Cairo and copying ideas and code from mozilla.org into Cairo.
GTK is also moving to a Cairo base, because it is also a big win for them, and there are some noises about QT...
One of the big features of Cairo is that it makes use of the Xgl/glitz pipeline, which accelerates 2D rendering in must the same way as Avalon. The final architecture still has to be worked out, but there's a good chance that Cairo will run directly on the hardware, with OpenGL/DRI support, and that much of the higher level X stuff in new Xorg releases with use Cairo for their rendering
Cairo is very much designed to be like Avalon on the API level, and to fill a similar role to Avalon and Core Image on the Mac. The only things not being addressed by Cairo are 3D (mostly OpenGL's area) and video.
Regards,
-Jeremy
No, no, no! They are nothing like each other. If you look at the diagrams, you'll see that the Longhorn graphics pipelines run from top to bottom, whereas the Mac OS X graphics pipelines run left to right.
They're orthogonal to each other...
And, if one of our customers at work is to be believed, XP may still need a reboot, after switching it from DHCP to a static IP. Granted most customers claim they have "windows millenium edition 2000" or "2000 XP" or even "windows 95 XP"...
But this one that I remember clearly, didn't even bother to tell me. I had to ask what color her start button was, and she answered "green".
Now if they could fix the memory leaks that seem to be so rampant in Windows Server and its applications I might have an average uptime that is longer than 1 month.
I'm going to make the presumption that you're ignorant, as Windows 2003, and to a lesser degree 2000, is pretty well known for being rock solid operating systems (the whole "only up for x days!" argument is circa 1999 and is very, very stale).
What you may be talking about, and I've seen this mistake a few times, are uninformed admins that monitor their servers and note that SQL Server, or Exchange, as a couple of quick examples, keep consuming more and more memory until finally your machine is saturated.
Super diligent admins schedule regular reboots, all while muttering and complaining about those leaky MS apps.
Of course the reality is that the apps are proactively enlisting memory for cache, and if you haven't restricted them they'll use all available memory eventually (they'll release memory if other apps make memory demands).
Amazing how frequently that is misidentified as a "memory leak".
Good luck with that.
you had me at #!
I don't know what they claimed, but here's what they did, off the top of my head:
--Network changes don't need rebooting. You can change IPs, or even go from DHCP to static, etc with no rebooting.
--Non-essential drivers, like NIC drivers doesn't require a reboot, at least if the company isn't stupid. Try it with an Intel NIC someday, they install and you go, no reboot.
--USB/Firewire devices just work and need no rebooting, unless the manufacturer makes some speical driver that requires it.
--Many software installs that used to need reboots no longer require them. Things like video decoders, services, and so on are installed on the fly and made available. Many older peices of software that claim needing a reboot don't in reality.
There may be more, I haven't used 9x in years so I can't remember all the things that made it reboot. However they made significant headway with 2k/XP. Reboots are generally limited to system updates, and core driver updates. If they can get it to the point where thigns like graphics and sound drivers don't need reboots, all the better.
Wow upgrading a driver without having to reboot? Amazing! This along with alpha transparency in IE7 and a full-fledged journaling file system should launch Microsoft into a new age of technology, the 90's.
You linux Zealots all sing the same refrain with your vague posts:
a new age of technology, the 90's.
Try substantiating your comments with FACTS! Your post _should_ have read:
a new age of technology, the mid 90's.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.