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Kansas Challenges Definition of Science
nysus writes "Anti-evolutionists have made classrooms in Kansas a key battleground in America's culture war. Again. The New York Times reports they are proposing to change the definition of science in Kansas: 'instead of "seeking natural explanations for what we observe around us," the new standards would describe it as a "continuing investigation that uses observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory building to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena."'" From the article: "In the first of three daylong hearings being referred to here as a direct descendant of the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial in Tennessee, a parade of Ph.D.'s testified Thursday about the flaws they saw in mainstream science's explanation of the origins of life. It was one part biology lesson, one part political theater, and the biggest stage yet for the emerging movement known as intelligent design, which posits that life's complexity cannot be explained without a supernatural creator."
This has gone beyond a mere culture war. This is a war being waged by the insane in their effort to subvert and ultimately subdue sanity itself. To replace science with Pentacostalism, replace teaching with preaching, and replace truth with myth. These maniacal, land-locked Southerners are determined to hammer out their new techno-theocracy at any cost, and they are winning, people. They are winning. They have seized control of the terms of all debate, seized the Presidency, both houses of Congress, and are within a hairsbreadth of controlling the entire Judiciary. We are heading inexorably toward the nightmare world envisioned by authors like Alice Walker in books like A Handmaid's Tale. All it's going to take is one more 9/11-style attack and you'll be having to recite Bible verses in order to leave your house in the morning.
You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
Parent poster's Method
1. Observe belief system that you disagree with
2. Find particular item of disagreement
3. Make insulting exaggerations and inaccuracies
4. Repeat
Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
The Actual Method suggested by William Dembski.
1. Determine if the event under inspection happened necesarily or contingently.
A. If the event happened necesarily, then suggest natural causes.
B. If the event happened contingently, then proceed to step two.
2. Determine whether the event exhibits complexity or is simple.
A. If the event is simple (such as the pattern of polymers in chrystals), then suggest natural causes.
B. If the event is complex, then proceed to step three.
3. Determine whether the complex, contingent event exhibits specificity, or is merely ad hoc (therefore meaningless).
A. If the contingent, complex event is merely ad hoc (such as the sentence 'lkjdsaldslj') then suggest natural causes.
B. If the contingent, complex event has specificity (such as the sentence 'ID is a mathematical theory not a religious one') then suggest intelligent causes.
This is similar to how SETI filters out signals from intelligence and meaningless signals, as well as how detectives determine the death of a person by murder instead of accident.
Now. Here is what methodological naturalists do.
Step 1- Same as previous
Step 2- Same as previous
Step 3 A- Same as previous
Step 3 B- If event is contingent, complex, and specified, then go back to step 1. (leading to a regress)
The methodology proposed by ID theorists take's its cue from Plato - follow the evidence WHEREVER it leads, regardless of what you previously thought. Please mod this to -1 flamebait or -1 Troll for the views presented.
Hmmm... By your logic I could also say that we must teach "the universe began from nothing, for no reason. One celled lifeform became two celled, three celled, billion celled, again for no apparent reason. It just happened, for no reason."
Belief in God and evolution need not be mutually exclusive. That being said, evolution is as much a theory as creationism, and some may say it evolution relies on faith just as much (if not more) than creationism.
Really read up on evolution. There are huge missing factors and gaps in logic. Darwin knew this.
From The Morning
[FromTheMorning]
Separation of School & State
The definition of "science" that the anti-evolutionists are advancing is really what Aristotle called metaphysics, which he treated separately from but compatibly with physics proper. This would be covered in the best of the best Catholic schools (those steeped in Thomism).
But if evangelicals want their children to be confused, they should have that choice in education. Catholics should have their choice. And government-loving atheists should have their choice to be fed the propaganda from government-run schools.
Under the current setup, there is an unjust wealth transfer by means of taxes from private school families and homeschool families to government-school families. One-size-fits-all is absurd yet the anti-evolutionists have embraced this absurd notion and turned it into a "battleground."
Eliminate the battleground.
We are not Europe. They can laugh all they want. You can laugh too--move to Europe and laugh right alongside them. So be it. The US need not be like Europe for any reason.
You use "Europe" in huge generalizations. Do you realize there are more Christians and religious folk in Europe than all the US? Do you care?
Hmmm... By your logic I could also say that we must teach "the universe began from nothing, for no reason. One celled lifeform became two celled, three celled, billion celled, again for no apparent reason. It just happened, for no reason."
Belief in God and evolution need not be mutually exclusive. That being said, evolution is as much a theory as creationism, and some may say it evolution relies on faith just as much (if not more) than creationism.
Really read up on evolution. There are huge missing factors. Darwin knew this.
From The Morning
[FromTheMorning]
We don't mind. I learned about evolution. In fact, the more I learned the more I believed in God. But when you have educators proclaiming that evolution is fact and not theory you run into issues.
The heart of this debate is not whether evolution should be taught, its how it should be taught. Would you agree that evolution is still only a theory, even if a theory you believe likely to be true?
The fact remains--you can't tell kids its true when there is no proof that it is true. You are making this into an "us vs. Christians argument. Its nots---its a theory vs. science vs. education argument. Its a theory, so why not teach it as a theory? The real people who don't want the truth to be known are those who refuse to let the children know that evolution remains a theory and not a proven fact. Period.
Hmmm... By your logic I could also say that we must teach "the universe began from nothing, for no reason. One celled lifeform became two celled, three celled, billion celled, again for no apparent reason. It just happened, for no reason."
Belief in God and evolution need not be mutually exclusive. That being said, evolution is as much a theory as creationism, and some may say it evolution relies on faith just as much (if not more) than creationism.
Really read up on evolution. There are huge missing factors. Darwin knew this.
From The Morning
[FromTheMorning]
The heart of this debate is not whether evolution should or should not be taught, its how it should be taught.
Would you agree that evolution is still only a theory, even if a theory you believe likely to be true?
The fact remains--you can't tell kids its true when there is no proof that it is true. You are making this into an "us vs. Christians" argument. Its nots---its a theory vs. science vs. education argument.
Its a theory, so why not teach it as a theory? The real people who don't want the truth to be known are those who refuse to let the children learn that evolution remains a theory and not a proven fact. Period.
What is wrong with a sticker that declares the truth-that evolution is a theory? Anyone want to respond and argue that evolution is a fact? Go for it--then you will be on the side of lies.
Don't change the argument here. Is evolution fact or theory? Answer the question.
From The Morning
[FromTheMorning]
The heart of this debate is not whether evolution should or should not be taught, its how it should be taught.
Would you agree that evolution is still only a theory, even if a theory you believe likely to be true?
The fact remains--you can't tell kids its true when there is no proof that it is true. You are making this into an "us vs. Christians" argument. Its nots---its a theory vs. science vs. education argument.
Its a theory, so why not teach it as a theory? The real people who don't want the truth to be known are those who refuse to let the children learn that evolution remains a theory and not a proven fact. Period.
What is wrong with a sticker that declares the truth-that evolution is a theory? Anyone want to respond and argue that evolution is a fact? Go for it--then you will be on the side of lies.
Don't change the argument here. Is evolution fact or theory? Answer the question.
From The Morning
[FromTheMorning]
Sorry to burst your bubble there buddy...but us clowns aren't going to be going anywhere any time soon. Will our economic environment go through ups and downs...you bet. Will we always be the richest..nope..nor do we care (contrary to what you believe most americans could simply care less). Will we always do everything right. Nope! Name one country that has? Will we be the laughing stock of the world. Yep as long as we are in "first" palce so to speak. As soon as India, China, Singapore, etc... surpasses us then the world will focus their attention on those "clowns". Including Americans. Euporeans??? like yourself need to get a grip you are about as retarded as the fundamental morons in Kansas that the artical was about. Get over your selves. Oh BTW every american I know understands world politics pretty well. We don't live in a dark void. We still invent a large portion of the worlds technology...we finance most of the rest of it. So get over the stupid shit we do. Why not focus on fixing your gov and let us focus on fixing ours. Remember at least 49% don't like the current president and many more of us only voted for the current president so the job would be finished. I would say that at least 90% of americans know good and well that we need to fix shit...and we are trying. So scurry along back to your middle evil cave and try to fix you own clan instead of busting our balls all the damned time. Oh and next time the is a large uprising from some crazed man in Europe perhaps we will just stay out of it. Since we are obviously to stupid and ignorant to do science! God damnit you are a total dipshit. I am going back to work...oh yeah that is somthing we do in America. Try raising your job level back up and quit all the damned bitching
Again, you are changing the argument. Is evolution fact or theory? Answer the question.
[FromTheMorning]
Where is the fossil record the the "partial wing"--the one that was growing but had yet to produce results? Where is the fossil record for the partial gil--the gil that didn't yet breath but was existing in order that some relatives would grow one that did work?
The fossil record is incomplete. Mutations NEVER result in good changes in the near generation, and therefor the extended generation. So evolution remains only a fallible theory.
I could go into all the times I've witnessed God, but you wouldn't believe me, so why bother.
From the Morning
[FromTheMorning]
Why attack me personally? The point I was trying to make is that evolution should be taught as it as--as a theory.
You might be surprised to know that I, a Christian, think evolution SHOULD be taught in school---as a theory, which it is. Don't try to tell the kids its a proven fact. Allow this debate to happen and allow kids to participate in it.
The stickers in text books were only an attempt to make it known that there are alternative views to evolution. Why do you have a problem with this? Why do you say that I am crazy? Do you know me?
[FromTheMorning]
Ok, I'll give you that, but the heart of this debate is still the same: should kids be taught that evolution is fact or theory? Should they be made aware that not all believe it or subscribe to it? Is this okay?
The zealousness that leads to evoltion being forced from schools is the same kind of zealousness that the evolutionists are using to present their theory as the only viable one. What is the fear of these simple little stickers? I don't get it!
[FromTheMorning]
I have--many. Please don't sit in judgement because you disagree with me.
Tell me, what do you think is wrong with the stickers that are at the heart of this debate?
From The Morning
[FromTheMorning]
"only the mutations that are beneficial to continue to exist" Since when has any mutation ever been beneficial? Show me on scientific study that proved a beneficial mutation of a species? IF we have all evolved over millions of years from a speck ot matter floating in space, where did that matter come from? We are a creation, there is a Creator.
Intellegent design appeals to ignorance? You, Sir, are an idiot. So by your logic, if I see a chair and assume it was skillfully designed, I'm appealing to my ignorance? or the person to whom I'm describing it?
Once again, folks, it's very simple. Everyone one wants to put everyone in a corner. If you're a Creationist, you're not a Scientist. If you're a scientist you're not a Creationist. As soon as someone produces an example to the contrary, someone cries fowl. There are scientific premises for Creationism as well as Evolution. You don't have to be a Christian to believe that all this came from somewhere. You don't have to be a scientist to believe we're all here by chance. Don't show your ignorance by pigeon-holing everyone with your rhetoric.
Argue more intelligently or stfu.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ ID=44129
...".
Note what the opponents are saying. Not that they can demonstrate the correctness of their position, but that they can sling enough mud and portray their opponents as "... ignoramuses
Darwinists are apparently out of logical argument so can only rely on ad hominem attacks.
They won't challenge the ID team because they can't do so because it would require them to engage in scientific debate.
Also note the two definitions of "science".
The open minded "We have to come up with a natural explanation even if it is absurd", instead of the really bigoted "continuing investigation that uses observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory building to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena".
Investigation is not science?
Observation is not science?
Testing hypotheses and Measurement are not science?
Experimentation, Logical Argument and Theory Building are not science?
Apparently none of these are "science" to darwinists, at least if they conflict with darwinism (do they yet allow punctuated equilibrium yet as not quite heresy?).
If none of these things are science to darwinists, I find it hard to imagine what is?
Religion isn't bad. In fact, a true religion has a lot in common with science - it's a continual proofing to make sure the belief holds. A follower of a religion should also be able to explain to others not only what they believe, but why they believe it - a study called "apologetics."
..., ..., ..., etc.
And how it actually works in practice: (Fingers stuck in ears) Laa! Laa! Laa! I'm obviously right, so you're wrong! You must now convert to my favorite religion, or I'll kill you. And I'll probably kill you even if you do! Laa! Laa! Laa! I can't hear you!
Remember the Inquisition, the Romans feeding lions, the Crusades, the Kurds in Iraq, Jews in WWII,
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
So the only word of God you have is from over a millenia ago? In a thousand years God may not have changed his/her mind? Could you really be a supreme being while being so inflexible? Man oh man. Try thinking for yourself. Ask yourself what a kind and benevolent God would do instead of what was written down long ago.
Why do you believe some books- written by guys who may have been higher than a kite on hash are the word of God? They've been translated- how do you know what you are reading is accurate?
Knowing there is a God- I get that. Believing in some books written ages ago that you have not read in their original language I do not get. Why do you believe they are the word of God? Because someone told you? What about the contradictions? What about the innaccuracies? Isn't it just possible that although God's hand may have guided the original authors that perhaps, over a millenia the words have been changed, ammended, mistranslated and otherwise bastardized?
Stop worshipping a book and try worshipping your God. Frankly the bible thumpers seem to me to be violating the first commandment by putting the Bible before God's will.
-sirket
One thing not predicted by evolution: existence of exclusively homosexual behavior in animals. Does this make evolution "falsified"?
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Fuck you. I will speak/type when I wish...remember It is one of those rights of ours that you probably didn't get from YOUR education. "Try using a spell-checker or take spelling lessons." Sorry I have a real job that requires real time. "Try learning about sentence structure. " Boring...I am one of those Americasn who IS good at math and science and could care less about you sentence structure...when I am ranting that is. "You're perfectly exemplifying the "ignorant/arrogant American" " What? Because I stand up for my country? I will stand up for my country when ever I choose. It is people like you who will stand by and let OTHERS tell you all about how messed up iyour country is when you could be trying to change the view of others. So again Fuck you. Oh and for the record have you ever even left this country? You do realize that the slashdot opinioni is not the prevailing world opinion right? You do realize that most people on this board are simply trying to start flame wars...such as your self? I have no problem critisizing my country. But I will be damned if some idealistic computer geek on the other side of the planet is gonna do it. You don't like it. The filter my posts. BTW. I did not spell check this...so Fuck you one last time.
Not really, because water, once it allows them to join, quickly forces them apart again.
Flocculation. Maybe you should study some more science instead of thinking whatever dropout your school underpaid to keep you in line during chemistry "class" in high school was the sum total of all scientific knowlege.
BTW, this is used every day in wastewater treatment to remove various organic contaminants from the water.
Good thing, too, or we wouldn't be able to digest much of those massive polymers called protein.
Next time I throw up, I'll remember that all that burning smelly stuff coming out is just water.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.