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Software Companies and Lost Serial Numbers?
Frustrated by "Customer Support" asks: "My company purchased a retail boxed piece of software from a small company about 8 months ago, before I worked here. My predecessor was not organized at all, and he misplaced the serial numbers. Now it's time for that software to get reinstalled, but we're unable to due to the missing numbers. I contacted support for the company, and they indicated that they were unable to provide replacement keys, even after I faxed them my proof of purchase. The company claims it's the customer's responsibility to keep track of the keys, and that they're unable to supply replacements as the key could still be used to run there software. I find this totally ludicrous, as we've paid for a license to use the software. So Slashdot, does a missing serial number or software key invalidate your license to a piece of software that you purchased? Does one have any recourse to get a replacement serial from a company that won't supply them? Does one purchase software or do you purchase serial numbers?"
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but thats really the best solution. It's not difficult -- a simple excell sheet with product names and reg keys. Store it someplace safe -- which gets backed up with everything else. The actual paperwork? A simple binder with clear folders. Just stuff all your keys/serials there.
Since you are already *IN* that boat, you may want to try a few things on some test platforms:
(a) install the software on new platform
(b) copy the install directory from the old to the new platform
(c) cross fingers
or
(a) install the software on the new platform
(b) copy the registry entries created by the old software to the new platform
(c) cross fingers
or
(a) install the software on the new platform
(b) crack open your handy disasmbler/softice combo
(c) attempt to ID the protection and disable it
(d) cross your fingers
Don't expect any of these things to work, but it wouldn't hurt to try. Other places you may look for hidden keys: win.ini, *.dll (usually created by the installed software), *.ini, *.cfg, etc etc etc. Keep a sharp eye and you may get lucky but as a betting man, I'd bet that you are going to be buying new licences, though. My guess is that you can't show that you haven't transfered those licences to another party.
Just search for a serial number or a crack for the software, and then never purchase software from that company again.
If they can't disable the lost key then I understand. If they can because it's an online service then I feel a replacement shuold be made.
A blog I run for the wealth
No, you paid for the software and you have the original disks. Most companies will gladly send you another serial number. It's a support issue, and they shouldn't have a problem with it. Even Microsoft will replace a lost serial number.
Does one have any recourse to get a replacement serial from a company that won't supply them?
Yes, write a letter to their CEO, cc your state's AG, the BBB, and the FTC.
Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
If the company would not cooperate do what any savy computer geek would do GOTO Astalavista and lookup you software. The odds are you'll find the keys there.
...but have you asked them to resupply your original serial(s)? Surely they'd keep track of the serial numbers they've given out in the past, right? How much money are we talking about if you have to repurchase the software?
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Hacked keys aren't too hard to find these days. I know you shouldn't have to do that at a job. Let's face it, at the end of the day you need to get your job done.
http://astalavista.box.sk/ Easy enough!
---- Fear the mighty TsEA
Why the secret? Who is this company and what's the name of the product?
Some of us might be in a position to buy or recommend this kind of software someday, and the information may help guide our choices.
Of course I don't usually use proprietary software, and especially not one with these kinds of ridiculous terms. If you hand your rights over to a company (specifically, the right to run a piece of software legally obtained, which is spelled out in copyright law), you will get burned sooner or later!
I used to work for a company that sold software on a commercial basis with all licenses etc. etc. Every company keeps a database of their customers and their license keys. So you should be able to get the original key back, or get the company who sold you their software to invalidate your existing key and give you a new one. If the company you bought the software from, does not provide such a support, it would be a good time to start looking elsewhere for similar software.
It is indeed ludicrus.
Imagine loosing your keys to your Ford and the company tells you "i'm sorry. It's your responsibility to take care of the keys. You can buy a new and improved ford however"
Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
When you find your keys be sure to take a picture of them and print up flyers and tack them up on telephone poles with a FOUND notice. Post them on your website too.
It's obvious to most people that people buy the right to use a piece of software, not a magic number. Check out Ambrosia's Lost registration code policy as an example of a company who understands this.
Random and weird software I've written.
Let the company know they lost a future customer (i.e. for future product upgrades) and then go get a hacked version from the 'net. If you ever get auditted I'm assuming you have the original software in place and I doubt they would ever check the serial keys (or your software either, depending on how big your work is...or if that sort of thing is ever done? I don't know).
The software company is being rude, but they may be within their rights.
The thing is, whoever was supposed to be keeping track of keys wasn't doing their job. Somebody in the organization should have been tracking this stuff. Usually, it's an IT manager or the senior sysadmin, but sometimes, it's the person in accounting who cut the check.
Sure, take agressive steps to get another key (be a pest, contact the BBB, etc.), but the real lesson here is that your company shouldn't have lost the key in the first place. If you have to buy the software again, maybe that'll sink in.
Forward, retransmit, or republish anything I say here. Just don't misquote me.
Send a bill to your predecessor for the cost of a new license. It was his responsibility. It was a company asset. He lost it. Would it be any different if he had a company laptop and "lost" it before he quit/was let go?
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his." - Patton
That way, when the box or case is missing, and all you can find is the CD, you're still good. Not that this helps you now ...
2) If it's expensive `enterprise' software, the company really should keep track of who bought what serial number. They should be able to give you the same key again.
3) and if all else fails, just use a key you find on the net. You have proof that you've bought it, so you're safe from a `piracy' charge. And in the future, buy from another company, becuase this company is a pain in the ass.
What the license says?
There must be a explicit term in the EULA for this type os misfortune. Something like "If PURCHASER loose the product key, the product will not be able to be reinstalled by PURCHASER, as COMPANY does not replace product keys in any way."
Any other case, get a loyer...
\m/
We contacted whoever owned ARCServe back then (this was around 1997ish), and they couldn't believe it, but they said "Okay, send us proof of the broken disc, and we'll send you a new one". So I told somebody in the department to fax them the disc. An hour later they returned with the pieces. "Uhh... how do I... err...?"
So I walked them over to the photocopier, laid down the pieces, copied them and handed him the copy. "There. That should be easier".
Heh. Temporary cognitive disconnect in an otherwise intelligent person. I still picture them standing in front of the fax machine with the cover sheet, parts of the disc and a determined look.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
What company and what package?
Read the EULA for the app if it's handy (or available), just to make sure, but I believe in most cases using a keygen (if one is available) to get the application installed and running isn't actually against the EULA (which just wants you not to run the app on more than one computer without multiple licenses or copy it for your friends).
You can show you've paid for the application. You can show you've tried to resolve the situation in good faith with the vendor, and presumably you can show they were uncooperative. Obviously, you don't tell them you're using the keygen, and you keep complaining to their support group and even their ownership until you get your key back, but you've got your application up and running at least.
If they do somehow figure out you're using a keygen and get huffy/legal with you, you've got plenty to show a court that you are entitled to use the application because you paid for it and that you tried to clear it up with them.
It goes without saying you shouldn't (if you have any choice) do any business with a company like this again. Also, though you already know this, keep better track of keys next time as well.
The only other helpful suggestion I've seen here so far is to keep pestering the company's support team until they cave in, or get the BBB or AG involved (or both). Trying to contact the company's owners or upper management might be a good idea, too.
One final tip: if you've been dealing with the support minions by phone or e-mail, stop. Do it in writing, to leave a paper trail and give them a better sense of urgency about the problem. Make it clear that you will not stop until they make this right; letters are far more powerful and effective in this than persistent phone calls or e-mails.
Read my stuff.
and buy from their competitor that has no such restrictions. Make sure you tell them too.
BC
OK, so you can't use Open Source for everything, but that is one of the joys of Open Source: never having to think about license keys.
Admittedly, I don't tend to read volumes of cost comparisons between open-source and proprietary software but one thing I haven't seen in the cost comparisons I have read is the cost of managing licenses. In my experience this is non-trivial.
As you have noted here there is a cost in wasted time dealing with the vendor and probably in down-time for your users who need the software.
Even if the key wasn't lost there is a cost in maintaining the records of keys.
If you can't convince them to provide you with your key then there may be the cost of buying another copy if you decide to continue doing business with the crooks who are currently screwing you.
I have personally spent days with tech-support trying to work around buggy activation schemes. This was not only lost time for me but for the projects that relied on the equipment in question.
I've also had to battle with vendors to get rid of evergreen clauses or to carefully track them when they couldn't be removed.
Then there is the recent issue with certain Adobe software not installing on machines with RAID arrays (you are installing on multiple disks which is prohibited...). Go figure.
And the issue of Intuit not providing keys for old versions of software even though they acknowledge that they have them. Upgrade or kiss your data goodby.
When you add users or machines you need to track your license status, get purchase orders, etc. Renegotiating bulk contracts, watching out for evergreen clauses and such takes legal and management time.
One need only scroll through a few of Ed Foster's "Gripe Line" columns from InfoWorld to see how much pain product activation is causing.
Good luck.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
Suppose your disk suffered layer-separation and a replacement was your only option. Don't most companies offer replacement if the media goes bad? Well, the new disk likely comes with a new key. And the fee for replacement is usually small. Finally, the paying of such a fee could be a suitable reminder to keep the new key from getting lost.
I lost a $20 bill. So I went to the bank from whose ATM I got it and demanded that they give me a replacement for free. After all, why should it cost me anything to replace it? Its just a piece of paper. And why should I be out the $20 just because I was careless? It took me two hours of talking to tellers and managers, but finally they gave me the $20. Tomorrow I'm going to go to four more banks.
The problem? We've had to re-install this crap software about a half-dozen times now, and every time I've had to call them and get a new license code. Since the challenge-hash is different every time, none of the old codes work. I can really see a time in the future when these dorks are out of business and we're left with no way to re-install the software, thus rendering their hardware useless.
They don't seem to understand the concepts of "key escrow" or "open source" or "escape clauses". They just seem to understand "$$$". They also give me a smarmy attitude when I call for a new key. I'm sure they know I'm just re-installing to the same machine over and over from the hash, but they always make it look like they're doing me a favor and not charging me another few thousand for a license.
I don't have any solution for this, but I bet a lot of you reading this have the same problem.
Imagine if you bought a book that had a lock on it. You received the key with the book as you purchased it, and were able to unlock the book to read it. Now imagine that you lose that key. What can you do? You could force your way into the book or try to get a locksmith to make a new key for you. But it's your copy of the book and you have a right to read it anytime you like, right? In fact, if you got sick of unlocking the book evertime you wanted to use it, couldn't you just bypass the lock altogether?
With propietary software, you have no such rights. In fact, the rights you do have are surprisingly few. Let's pretend you were using the software and the company that made the software fell off the face of the earth. Now you have no recourse whatsoever. Let's consider that you are using the software and you discover an error. Are you allowed to fix it? At least with the book, you can mark in your copy and even add or remove pages. But you can't do that with the copy of the software you purchased.
Let's say you like the book a lot, and you want to share it with your friends. That's totally legal with a book, but not with software. Some licenses are so restricted that you can't allow more than one person to use the computer if it is installed on that computer.
Stop paying people for limited rights to use software. Start contributing to the solution: sensibly copyrighted software in the free and open source communities.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
We don't lose our serial numbers because we immediately write them on the original CD, and on the backup copy CDs we make. We store the backup copies in a different location.
However, I have often seen people comment that when they lose serial numbers, they just do a Google search for serialz and the name of the program.
I would tell customers that the serial number is an integral part of the software. Losing that is like losing the CD that it came on.
This is one of the things I love about Valve's Steam, as much as I hate some of the licencing terms: If you should ever completely lose everything you ever had related to the software, you can still buy a new box, enter your username/password, and download everything or borrow a "backup" from a friend.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I got the task to install a tape library option for ArcServe on a large customer's Netware 5 system. Everything worked fine, but the installer wouldn't take the serial no. Reinstall several times, called the hotline. No avail. Then at the third try at the hotline after the usual 30 min. of bad music: "I want to install yadayadayada... Netware 5.... yadayada. Serial does not work". The hotline guy: "Yes. Your serial number does not work on Netware 5." "Beg your pardon ?" "The serial number that is printed on the CD sleeve does not work with Netware 5. It only works with Netware 4." "????!!!" "Fax a copy of the number you have to the European license desk and they'll send you a number that also works with Netware 5. I faxed them a copy of the CD sleeve with the number, and presto ! 2 hrs. later I had my working serial number. Up to today I haven't understood the idea behind this. But that was when ArcServe was already in the bloody claws of CA and beginning its slide into the abyss of CA software quality.
Remember Borlund Software, and their first product, Turbo Pascal? The license said, "Treat this software like a book. Use it, yourself. Loan it to a friend. But you and your friend can't use it at the same time.
Eminently sensible. This too has passed.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
I'd suggest just buying the software again, but from one of their competitors. Customer support has become a vital part of software, and if theirs is lacking, there are plenty of other companies that I'm sure would believe you and actually honor your purchase.
Or, just try calling back to see if you can talk to another support guy who might be more agreeable. Some times you get support staff who won't get off their ass to do the most reasonable things if it's not specifically in their job description.
Kurdt
I'm not anti-social. Just pro-technology.
I bought a personal copy of Lightscape 3.0, a radiosity rendering package, back in 1997. At the time, the license system involved the following steps:
1.Install Lightscape.
2.Enter serial number into installer.
3.Installer gives you a second number.
4.Send the first and second numbers to Lightscape, who will then generate a third number and send that to you.
5.Run Lightscape and type in the third number.
From there, you're "set". Of course, that second number was completely machine-dependent, so you need to get a new third number from Lightscape every time you upgrade your machine.
Oops... except Lightscape was bought and assimilated by Autodesk, who stopped supporting the app in July 2003. The problem here, of course, is that where Lightscape is concerned, "support" was necessary simply to install the product.
Guess as a paying consumer, that's just what I get for patronizing a company with a draconian licensing scheme.
As much as I hate "ditto" comments by ACs, you hit the nail on the head and there really doesn't need to be any other comments here.
I wouldn't want to buy from a someone like you.
I would tell customers that the serial number is an integral part of the software. Losing that is like losing the CD that it came on.
Right and every software vender I know will replace lost or damaged media from a nominal fee. I own a license and I have a right to use it. Remember we are talking about a business buying software. This isn't a game purchase. By contacting you as asking for a replacement, they risk an audit. The whole world isn't trying to steal from you.
I had a dealership make me a new set of keys for about $6, without the car present, knowing only the VIN and the name of the original owner - who was neither me nor present. (It was a girlfriend at the time) They did have proof that a girl's voice at one point called them, but no identity verification of her.
Whoever got treated like a thief needs to act less suspicious, or call better locksmiths/dealerships.
I _was_ authorized to have that key made, but they had no way of knowing.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
I lost my key to Windows 98 once, so I called Dell and they told me the key. They didn't seem to even care if I had purchased a computer.
maybe we consumers should have a "serial number" bank of sorts to safekeep our keys then? u know, like a website where we send in our keys and can later search for keys by entering the name of the software
When you buy software, and it doesn't come with a key when new. I've got 22 new Dells without the little Microsoft stickers on them. We ended-up buying 22 new copies of Windows just to keep from getting screwed by the SPA. We paid for the computers with a cashiers check, so of course, Dell screwed us. Next time I'm pooling the credit cards together so Dell can't screw us like that again.
Even more annoying to me personally is the copy of Battlefield Vietnam I've got on my desk that I can't play. It didn't come with a serial number, and the crooks at EA don't give-out new numbers.
Of course, software keys are much better than hardware keys. We have two $36k large format scanners that won't work because the HASP hardware key driver (aksparlnx.o) doesn't work. We were screwed out of over $72k because of the idiots at Aladdin (www.aks.com).
If you lost the keys to your car, and the dealer wouldn't give you a new key, would you have a problem getting the locks changed?
Get on the net and find a serial number. There is nothing wrong with this. I've done this many times, legally, including with Fortune 50 companies. Paperwork gets misplaced.
As for this company, why don't you tell us who they are, so we don't buy anything from them?
Fuck, Ask Slashdot has gotten stupid.
I work for a company which licenses its software via FlexLM. Even though we don't have to, we permit our customers to rehost the (periodically renewed) license keys simply because it builds a good rapport (and few people would have the chutzpah to ask for a rehost when they're stealing the software).
I'd recommend calling them back and ask them for this courtesy. If that doesn't work, make up a sob story about how if the system isn't up and running by the end of the week, your boss will probably blow his lid and fire you. Most people, believe it or not, want to help out others in a perceived need.
Threaten (to drop them as a vendor, to go to a competitor, etc.) only as a last resort; that usually gets a person's hackles up.
If the software company is a member of the Business Software Alliance you may be in luck.
Having suffered through the begginings of a BSA audit, one thing they made clear to us was that having the disks/serial numbers wasn't relivant, it was proof of purchase that gave us a legal copy of the software.
So, since you do have that proof, according to the BSA you have a legal right to the software.
Your lawyer should be able to have lots of fun with this.
So you charge a small service charge for the lost keys. Having tons of customers calling when they lose keys might be an annoyance, but a service charge would dissuade carelessness while still providing service for lost keys.
If they can't find the serial keys, what are the chances that the EULA and/or other papers are still hanging around?
A book is less easily reproducable than software though. Sure you can take time and run a book through the photocopier, but unless you're a college student on a budget who would actually do this?
Not that I think serial keys and/or other such means are a good idea... they annoy much more than they protect as quite often the crack is available within a week of the product's release or possibly even before!
IANAL but I've always heard the Licensing agreement legally refered to as a contract between two parties. If you have held up your end of the contract then it is very reasonable for the company to give you new keys.
All that said, it is reasonable to charge the user some sort of small penalty fee.
Hope this gives you leads to do other, more accurate, research than asking /.. Sheesh. :)
Sam
the key could still be used to run there software
"their".
Moderators please mod this up so that "Frustrated by "Customer Support"" can see it.
In Israel crooks used the following scheme:
They took 20 bills, cut the 1st bill into two parts, 5% from the left, the 2nd 10% from the left, 3rd 15%, and so on. Then they glued the 5% part of the 1st to the 90% part of the second, the 10% of the second to the 85% of the 3rd. In the end they had 21 bills each missing 5%. I don't remember exactly what they did with these bills - if they just used them, or if they exchanged them in a bank.
It seems this scheme would work even better in the US.
I'd check at least the registry. Assuming windows.
1. Buy software.
2. Sell software.
3. Get replacement for "lost" serial number.
4. Profit!
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I work for a computer repair shop, and we sometimes need to recover keys from machines to do a re-install. Usually, we ask to see the original licence, but in cases where we have seen the licence but it is no longer available (urgent job, client can't bring us the bit of paper, licences destroyed in fire, stolen etc) we try to recover them from the machine.
One of the best tools for this is AIDA32ee (Enterprise Edition). It's free, and will display the licence codes for a number of programs including Windows, MS Office, Works etc. The only problem is you have to be able to boot the system to run it. Windows licences can be recovered from a hard drive by reading in the registry.
Moral of the story: back up your paper licences!
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
That's why they print the unique serial number on both ends of the bill.
With this attitude, you're doing your hardest to convince potential customers they're better off downloading a copy and a keygen?
Consider for a moment...if the physical CD is relevant or if I lose my serial number, then I have to buy it again.
On the other hand, the pirate can download the software as needed, and with the keygen and is no longer tied to losing that serial number.
Ethical considerations aside, piracy looks like the better angle, based on your customer hostile attitude.
Hmmmm... but you can have more than 51% of the bill without having both serial numbers, no? Or are the rules more complicated - that you need more than 51% and both serial numbers?
Let the market do its thing. If the vendor has burned you, find another one.
www.wavefront-av.com
So what if they could change it to say that after 1 year(s) usage, you now owe them $500/year?
Terms change can apply to continual services (bank accounts, etc) but should not be applicable to a one-time-purchase product.
The applicable license for when you bought the product would stand, but it might "change without notice" for future purchases, not your original purchase.
A small company with support offerings such as these sounds like an amateur outfit.
I'd bet the keys are visible inside the binaries. Have you run strings on the binaries or DLL's? Disassemble the binary, find the entry point to the key verification routine, patch it to always return true. Hire a local college comp engineering student to help you with this.
If you have proof of purchase all this is perfectly legal. Make sure you also impose a new corporate purchase policy that requires the keys to be in escrow for all critical software.
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
What I said:
"If you should ever completely lose everything... you can still buy a new box (as in PC), enter your username/password, and download everything OR borrow a backup from a friend."
I guess I'm treating a PC as "something related to the software".
What you said:
"You don't have to borrow or buy anything in order to get the game back. You can even burn the data [option to borrow] in case you have to format."
That was my whole point, the whole reason for my post -- as long as you have the username/password, you have the games.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I'd heard of the false statements MS made about Novell. In fact, when I first heard managment spreading the rumour, I tracked it down as far as one of the MS consultants, but couldn't go further with it.
You know, the "American People" like to think of themselves as free and, above all, morally upright. You'd think that with behavior like we seen the last 20 years, no one would have any thing to do with MS which stands for lack of freedom and seems to get by only with the help of unethical and occasionally immoral and illegal business practices.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Okay so my little brother has been playing CounterStrike on his XBox and wants to try installing it on a PC -- great, I say, I just happen to have a HalfLife CD w/ key from the good old days lying around. So after I install it I try and get this Steam thing going to patch HL so I can install the latest CS mod. Turns out at some point in the distant past I created a Steam account and associated my key with it, but now I don't even remember the email address I used, never mind the username and password. According to Valve, my CD key is now "lost", and if I want a replacement I have to send them US$25 (which is probably about what I originally paid for HL).
Funny, but I don't remember the EULA specifying that they were selling me the right to activate HL for a Steam account; I'd swear it was about a video game.