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How Valuable is a Minor in Computer Science?
DenmaFat asks: "I'm an IT person finally finishing my BA (in Psych) at a big state U. For a few dollars (and about a semester) more, I can also minor in CS. I'll probably do it anyway, because I love the subject matter, but I'm wondering what the value of a CS minor is in the job market. Are there any CS minor holders who can speak from experience on this one?"
Having 5 years of experience matters more than what the exact degree is.
That said - having something that says CS on your resume will get you through a lot of HR screens. Remember for each job a company posts, 100s of resumes come in. They might phone screen 4-5 candidates and bring in 1-2. The job of your resume is to get you from the door to the phone screen.
Once you are past the HR droid - your degree doesn't matter, your technical skills do... And trust me - I can tell if you have what I am looking for, and I don't care if you have a minor in CS, a partial degree, or a degree in animal husbandry.
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
I don't have good experience to answer from. But as a business owner with a highly technical background, I would indeed value a CS minor for sales, marketing and support type of positions. I think it would be quite helpful to have people in those not-strictly-technical positions who could have an understanding of the technology that was deeper than the typical "salesworm" grasp. I don't know what your job plans are, but I think I remember reading somewhere that people with psych degrees can often be successful in sales.
;-)
Of course if I were hiring you to be my shrink, I wouldn't give a flying one whether or not you had a minor in CS
Actually, when you graduate, you are screwed no matter what your degree is in...because you probably have little or no experience.
Anyhow, people who only studied CS only know CS. For many companies, this is not worth it. In my division, I prefer to hire people with a "real degree" (i.e. non CS) who can also program. For example, just about every engineer can hack out a FORTRAN or C program, but almost no CS people can do engineering. Some of these engineers can also write beatiful and useful programs, too!
This comes up on slashdot all the time. As a relatively long time (15+ yrs) non-pointy-haired boss who hires developers, the degree does not matter as much as the person. Some of my best programmers barely finished secondary school.
Common sense, the ability to work with others *gasp*, work habits, and organization skills are more important than the quality of a piece paper you bring into my office. We can teach any other skills that are required if someone is passionate enough about technology.
If, however, you are interested in the coursework, then by all means do it.
"This mission is too important to allow you to jeopardize it." -- HAL
It will mean next to nothing in a small to medium company, but might make a big difference someday in government or a large corporation.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
If you are, then get your B.A. and get out. The last thing you need is another semester (another 12%!) on your school loan payments. Your degree gets you your first job. Your first job gets you your second job. And so forth. So, if you want your first job to be CS-related, that's one thing, but otherwise save your money for better things.
A minor in CS is worth more the a degree in Pysch. Jesus, did you go just to get a degree? You might as well have majored in dance.
I got my programming job because I have a minor in psychology, and my boss is an emotional nitwit.
If you like the courses and are challenged by them, take them. Same applies to basket weaving. You can make a living doing lots of stuff.
You should look into studying human factors engineering/human-computer interaction. Having both psych and CS/programming skills makes you pretty quickly employable, especially if you have a master's. Good luck.
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
What kind of minor? You mean labia minor? In that case it is very valuable because it is extremely rare.
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I encourage every college student I know to take as many courses as they can in CS. Not because they will use them, but because almost any job these days requires interacting not only with computers but with computer people and it is good to have some clue as to what the computer is really doing and what the computer people are doing as well.
Lasers Controlled Games!
You get a beautiful program full of object-oriented highly encapsulated buzzword prettified heavy weight infrastructure.
But the computations don't conserve momentum.
Or money.
I.e. a "bad" program which does approximately the right thing to solve the problem is better than a beautiful program which does positively the wrong thing.
That certainly surprised the hell out of me, but apparently their skill set wasn't up to par from what my boss tells me! (what are they teaching you GT guys over there anyway?!?!)
The co-ops seem to do fairly well, and believe me, the school loves tooting their horn about that.
And I might be taking CS, but I definitely want to end up with more than just a CS degree and a job in IT.
For a few dollars (and about a semester) more, I can also minor in CS.
For a few dollars more, you can learn about C++ (the good), Java (the bad), and Perl (the ugly), get a job, and barely make from it all a fistful of dollars.
Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
A must read : Undergraduation. ( and feedback from anon professors on this essay )
Yet Another College Advice Essay
Grab some microeconomics before you leave.
The following is from http://www.paulgraham.com/hiring.html
I think of a minor as potential icing on the cake with one's degree. For example, I got a Business Administration minor (2 additional semesters) while I got my BSCS, because I thought it would suggest to employers that I wasn't just a one-sided nerd, but had some business sense/appreciation for what goes on in "the real world".
In general I would say a CS minor looks very good accompanying a non-technical major, because it shows you have an interest in and can handle an increasingly technological world and workplace. But since you already have IT experience, I don't think it will help you any.
The question is, what do you ultimately want to do for a living? If it's programming, the vast majority of companies require at least a BS, in CS, or for some, in any math or engineering discipline.
Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
I have over a decade of experience in the IT field, and from what I've seen, degrees are almost meaningless.
I've personally seen far, far too many employers treat a degree like a check box on a form - either you've got one, or you don't. Experience is much more valuable than your major/minor is.
My 8(-3.5)year 2.11GPA degree showed that eventually, I would put up with the bullshit and get the requirements completed. My career has no subject-related benefit from my Biology major/Chemistry minor Liberal Arts (A.B. (our diplomas were in Latin - that's a B.A. to all you Philistines)). I had the piece of paper and bullshitted my way into my first P/A position. Good work since then has resulted in kept me (mostly) gainfully-employed.
Beyond what it takes to graduate, take classes that interest you.
I happen to be a Systems/Networking person, and I ended up *not* minoring in CS because the CS track at the school I was attending was 95% programming. I took 1 CS course (C++), learned nothing except syntax (which I learned mostly from online HOWTO's), and never took another.
If there were more courses in focusing on Networking or System Administration, I'd have taken more. So, check what is offered before you leap in!
Don't save Windows XP! http://www.petitiononline.com/jjw1xp/petition.html
I took the extra courses that I needed for a CS minor, and it was totally worth it. The classes provided me with a background in programming that is useful for any technical professsion. You learn how to reason more logically and break down problems into easily solvable segments. Aside from the programming knowledge, you also gain an understanding of tools like ssh, vpn and samba that help you work more effectively in a connected office..... and MOST importantly it got my foot in the door. No companies were that interested in my major (they didn't really understand it), but as soon as I mentioned I had a CS minor it was a totally different ballgame. Take the extra classes, you won't regret it!
In linux libertas
Sadly, I don't even consider a BS in CS to be worth much these days. My feeling in talking with graduates is that the dot com bubble watered down most Universities' CS programs... and I say that coming from a pretty highly ranked CS school. In my opinion, CS programs should focus on less programming and more CS/Math as they seem to just be churning out programmers, not scientists.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
Disclaimer: I majored in computer science and am currently employed as a software developer (lead programmer on a significant project).
Computer science, in and of itself, isn't particularly commercially viable anymore, what with outsourcing, offshoring, H1-Bs and L-1's getting most of the jobs... You shouldn't look at the question of whether to study computer science as an economic one. It isn't going to make you a penny, unless you major in it and leave the private sector, or go all the way and become a faculty member. It's the new liberal art, you know?
Having said that, it's one of the most valuable things you can study. Virtually everything will one day be done by or with computers, over networks. Knowledge of computer science is power. And the more you know, the more power you have.
A minor in computer science will magnify your abilities in your major field of study. It will support you, and let you achieve things other people find mystifying. Let's say you're a historian. While other historians are futzing around with paper notes and cards, you build a database to store your notes and create an interface to it on your PDA. Or maybe you're a biologist, and you catalog your samples that way.
Other people will notice what you can do and ask you to help them. You'll gain a bargaining chip, something valuable you can trade for what YOU need.
And in everything you do, you'll be more efficient than your colleagues -- provided you take advantage of it.
So, yeah, I'd say go for it. Just don't expect it to pay off directly in money or marketability.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
...I have a degree in Pysch and a Masters in Eng. Without wishing to sound like I'm crowing I cannot keep up with the amount of business being put my way. I started off in academia but I was getting so much consultancy pressed on me that in the end it was pointless to fight it (thats actual consultancy not being a contractor btw). Theres a major skill gap in our field, everyone wants safety and HSE (or at least needs someone to sign off on them) but theres hardly anyone to do it. So get a qualification in Ergonomics (whatevers recognised in your territory) and your Psych/CS degree will make more sense.
Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
Isn't your BA in Psych is enough to be a boss in the IT department???
-> More Tolerance Is Less Extremism <-
I agree for a lot of jobs like networking or database management or even programming, a CS degree is not really needed. However, get the CS minor. It will make you a better person for it. Also, you will meet people of similar interest which may lead you to contacts in the future. Would a piece of paper that says minor mean anything? Probably not. I have a Math minor and probably qualify for a CS minor if my school offered it and I don't think I got anything concrete out of it, but the fact that I met interesting people out of it. People that may start the next Google. I'm not sure of many psych people I can name that I would feel the same way.
I wouldn't worry about the minor. If you like it, go ahead and take it. More subjects will do you good. But I mean that in a personal growth kind of way - don't expect a future employer to care much, if at all.
I graduated as a CS major, and to be honest I'd have been better off if I'd taken something else. I'd probably still have my unix sysadmin job, and I've have had the chance to take some more interesting courses.
Contrary to the parent post, work keeps getting pushed DOWN the degree ladder when it comes to psychiatric work, at least in clinical psych. MA's today are doing what PhD's were doing thirty years ago, and BA's are doing what the MA's used to do. Most programs are so strapped for cash and so shy of resources that a good BA will probably find him/herself everything except prescribing meds. If clinical pysch is what you want to do...
i don't think having a minor around while doing cs is a necessity...
:( ...
this reminds me of a bash quote btw:
#352172 +(3506)- [X]
NHBoy: I broke my G-string while fingering a minor
rycool:
NHBoy: I was trying to play Knocking on Heaven's Door.
NHBoy: Oh well, time to buy new strings.
Does minor in college means anything anyway???
I work for a small college. The administration wants to start minor programs from different departments. Well, our department (among many others) decided not to participate, as what constitute as a minor is a complete joke. Essentially, they want one semester worth of classes (18 credit hours) for any students who have never had any classes in your discipline to be able to complete a minor.
What does that mean?? Well, that means all the introductory courses has to be included within that 18 credit hours. In some disciplines (particularly in natural and physical science), the intro courses ends up taking 8 credit hours or more. Then, finally, the students get to take more interesting materials. But with this 18 credit hour restriction is something that makes it nearly impossible to make a good minor program in many disciplines because of that.
The administration wants to start this to add more values to students' education and diversify their interest without making them take extra semesters. Many of us feel that because of the credit hour restriction, they are the programs that have no meat in it, or the programs that nobody will ever do. No matter how you look at it, it is something that does not mean anything.
We discussed about it in our departmental meeting, and the general consensus was that we cannot do this at all in reasonable sense. By producing a minor program with our name associated with it, it could actually harm our reputation, as we cannot possibly teach what the students need: we can't do half-ass job and give students seals of approval.
I don't know about your school, but my guess is it is not that much different. I know many other schools' minor programs are that way as well. According to one of my colleague's wife, who teaches different college, at her college, minors mean absolutely nothing, and students know about that. Some of the students still get those, as it is something to add to their CV when they look for jobs. But in the end, what you know, what you have experienced is much meaningful in job market (in the US anyway).
Is it valuable to you?
1. People (especially self-proclaimed techno-geniuses) often look down on Psych majors trying to play with technology. The minor will help with that - especially if 2 years from now you decide to work in IT.
2. Perhaps more importantly, people hiring into positions that would entertain a psychology degree are very happy to have someone on their side to help them deal with those nasty nerds. Perhaps reason 1 has something to do with this feeling?
3. Most positions require a level of computer savvy these days. Even if it's a simple as knowing how to graph data points in Excel or helping with Internet applications.
4. It rounds out your education and demonstrates that you can perform well in left-brained a right-brained tasks. This is not common and positions you well within the marketplace. It's very common for non-technical managers to look at a resume and say "too geeky" or for technical managers to say "no tech skills"
A few hundred dollars is nothing if it helps you as much as I think it will.
Quickly breezing through the replies to your post, it looks like I might be the first person to reply who can actually speak from experience.
I graduated during the downfall of dot-coms with a BA in Economics/Finance, and a minor is CS. Being stubborn, I shunned the i-banking jobs my fellow Econ majors were taking and still went for a job in technology (even though they were in scarce supply). I ended up finding a great company that was more interested in hiring smart people than what letters they had on their degree. The one requirement my company has when evaluating candidates (besides high GPA) is that candidates must show a passion for technology. I can safely say (because I confirmed it after getting the job) that the CS minor on my resume, along with the related work I had done during my time at school, was the element that put my resume near the top of the stack and landed me the interviews. A CS minor is not where it ends -- you'll have to prove your skills and knowledge during interviews, for sure, but having a CS minor can be a huge boost to your overall package and help get your foot in the door.
Once you are in the real world, the difference between having a CS Major and CS Minor will fade pretty quickly, IMHO. In my experience, the basics that you learn from earning a CS minor (software design principles, data structures, etc.) are enough to put you in a position to learn the specific software design practices of the company that hires you. Chances are pretty good that everyone that starts at the same time as you will be learning a whole new set of company-specific tools and practices anyway. CS majors may have an upper hand just from their experience with how to solve CS problems, but if you have the passion, you'll put in the extra work it takes to catch up. It's also good to befriend the smartest you meet in your first week - if your company isn't highly competitive (and I think most tech shops aren't), you'll be able to learn a lot just by sharing experiences and get a little help once in a while when you're stumped.
So, the bottom line from my perspective is that if you seriously want a job in technology, go for the extra cs minor. Don't worry about the extra 12% in student loans that some other poster pointed out - you'll have those paid off way ahead of schedule if you're successful. If technology is where you want to make your succuess, a CS minor will do a hell of a lot more to get you there than just a Psych degree.
I think you should use the minor in cs to augment your career in psychology,,, has anyone studied the personality disorders of people in this industry? please help us.. lol
Absolutely. On the other hand, if you don't go ahead and get the minor in computer science, what do you answer when someone asks "so, you claim to be really interested in computers... why didn't you take more computer science courses at university?"
"I'm interested in computers, not computer science."
And then explain the statement. I know CS professors that have no idea if the system on their desk is from Sun or SGI. And they don't need to -- they work in abstractions and barely need actual software, let alone a physical computer.
I'm not degrading all you CS majors -- pure math is cool and all that, and we definitely *need* that aspect. And having that theoretical background is great for a programmer or designer. However, for many computer-related job, someone who didn't take any CS classes but is a serious geek at heart will be better.
Thank you everyone who commented, especially those with CS minors (or those fingering them). This is exactly the kind of reality check I needed. I'm still going to forge ahead with the minor, but not out of the hope that it will land me a job (though it was heartening to hear that it may have made the difference in getting a couple of people jobs).
The HCI tangent really interests me, and I googled upon the HCI Bibliography:
http://www.hcibib.org/
That's enough to keep me busy for a while. Maybe in a couple of years I'll be asking the same question about the CS Master's.
I love that donkey. Hell, I love everybody.
I have a lot of friends who are working in a set of fields having nothing to do with IT or computers, at least at the beginning. Things moving on in companies, they all had to get involved with computers. Most of them started with excel, and slowly had to do some minor programming tasks (in VBA) for sorting, classifying, cleaning data, same thing for word, access, or the company SAP system. Helping them out with their scripts, I can assure you that just some basics in programming would have helped them getting some structure in their work.
They are in positions where they have to say yes or no when the company is going to hire the next guy, and be sure that a guy with some CS knowledge will rank higher.
In the coming years, more and more things will get down with computers and having the basics will help you a lot.
Cheers, Guillaume
is a legally mandated area of analysis in the chemical, heavy industrial, nuclear, transport and defence industries. Theres plenty of work out there. What you say is a truism; HCI is an academic term not used outside. As the grandparent gets right first time, Human Factors (or some variant with the word "safety" in often) is the industrial term, but much of it will be HCI in nature (where its referred to as Human Systems Engineering btw).
Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
I am a mechanical engineer with a 2nd major in mathematics. I took Choas/Dynamical Systems, Linear Algrebra, and Complex Analysis to get the double major. I think this actually hurt me while interviewing to work in industry as a M.E. The stereotypical math nerd doesn't possess the hands-on, get-it-done attitude that a sucessful engineer has. I'm glad that I got the 2nd major but I would have played it off as trivial when job hunting if I had it to do over.
Simple people talk of people, better people talk of events, great people talk of ideas.
About as much as a certificate stating you are the "World's Tallest Midget".