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Publishers Protest Google Library Project
gollum123 writes "A group of academic publishers is challenging Google Inc.'s plan to scan millions of library books into its Internet search engine index, highlighting fears that the ambitious project will violate copyrights and stifle future sales. In a letter scheduled to be delivered to Google Monday, the Association of American University Presses described the online search engine's library project as a troubling financial threat to its membership -- 125 nonprofit publishers of academic journals and scholarly books. The university presses depend on books sales and other licensing agreements for most of their revenue, making copyright protections essential to their survival."
My favorite take on the "loss of sales" argument comes from Cory Doctorow of BoingBoing on March 3, 2005:
i s_why_a.html
"When reporters ask me why I give away the full text of my novels online, for free, the day they're available in shops, I tell 'em: "It's about word of mouth. My readers have large social circles of friends whom they never see face to face. Books like Sisters of Ya Ya Sisterhoood became a success because one friend went to another friend and handed her a copy of the book, saying, 'You must read this, it changed my life.' I want to give my readers the same ability, so I have to give them a form of the book that they can 'hand' to their friends over the Internet. Even if it displaces some sales, the most valuable thing an author can get is a personal recommendation, it's the thing that is most likely to sell more copies of my books."
Linky: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/03/03/wordofmouth_
Why is it that Google is scanning copyright-protected works?
I thought that was flagrantly illegal, and the fines for willful copyright infringement are steep, even for a company with Google's money.
What's going on?
D
If I can get for free at my library I should be able to get it free on my computer.
The publishers may have a reasonable issue with Googles intention to copy some copyrighted works. If the project were to limit its accessibility to Public Domain works, the publishers would not be able to legitimately gripe. I suspect that the copyrighted work at issue is such that it is no longer in print & therefore generally unavailable for purchase.
However, a more serious concern is that Congress seems to perpetually insist on extending copyrights to the point that they are virtually perpetual. (I suspect that they are up to about 100 years.) If a publisher has a copyright, but decides that a work should not be in print - it is effectively censored.
This perpetual extension of copyrights (likely soon to be followed by business process patents,- Quick, give me $.05 for viewing this web page;) limites the use of useful works to those whom can pay the entrance fee. Assuming that the works are still in print.
If a publisher has a work that is unavailable (e.g. not in print), but copyrighted then they should have some way to disseminate it before they complain. The perpetual extensions of copyright are an issue that everyone should have their representatives address. (I can't help you. I live in DC, my representative has not voting power on the floor of Congress)
If you want change, you have to speak up.
Are these people complaining the ones responsible for the fact that at my university, the only way to get some info about something published in a journal was to log into some arcane heavily protected system and be told that the journal you are looking for is at another university, four stories underground, and protected by forcefields?
Are they the ones that feel that its justified to charge 200 dollars for a 5 dollar-value book ('journal') because they control the distribution... in which case... I hope they DO lose out.
Like street-sweepers protesting the loss of horse manure to sweep, these publishing houses seem to have trouble following historical trends.
Another way to look at it is that they have missed their first calling, which is to disseminate academic information, by becoming enslaved to the profit they make on a particular method of doing so.
Cynically, perhaps they are afraid that once the bulk of their collections are online people will discover that most of what they publish is rehashed from older work. No, I don't seriously think that.
But I do seriously think that the academic publishing business, like the newspaper business, is transitioning to the Internet.
It's time to lead, follow, or get out of the way.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
People will use this to find a resource, then go to the bookstore or library and BAMO it works, the customer wins finding obscure resources, and the vendor wins with more sales.
Call me naive, but isn't the main mission of a university press to disseminate information as widely as possible? They exist mainly because Penguin and Random House and the like don't see a huge earnings potential in publishing narrowly focussed academic material. Google can be a huge help to academic publishers by helping potential customers locate their material. At the same time, Google will help customers to be more discriminating in their purchases. Academic publishers will need to streamline their operations. They should really hop on the print-on-demand bandwagon so that they print only what they sell.
This story reminds me of every time blocking of online ads get mentioned -- there's always a chorus of people who chime in and say that blocking ads is fine because it's not up to them to support an outdated business model. Anyhoo, it's a bit tangential but this seems to fall in the same realm -- new, web-based method replaces outdated publishing model.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
"...making copyright protections essential to their survival.""
That is so wrong. Copyright has nothing to do with their survival as it has not played a real role in publishing profits for centuries(expect for betwixt publishers). Libraries have always provided copyrighted materials to the public free of charge to a limited use. The publishers have relied upon the library as being too bothersome, too far away, too hard to use, etc for their survival. Most people would rather order a book than sift through their local library to try to garner the same material or item. Publishers have depended on that, not the copyright, as books have always been free for the asking.
Now Google is poised to remove a significant portion of the 'library hurdle' that stops most people from using that resource before their local Barnes and Noble retail outlet. That is what they are upset over, not the copyright. The copyright is the only legal paper the have to hang onto and cry into. Therefore they try to raise your ire over that and hope you will miss the real point.
Do you really know anyone that steals books? Do you know anyone who downloads books illegally? Doesn't that sound a bit proposeterous when the same material can be had in an hour or two from your local library? It sure does to me.
As information moves to the electronic format, as most all of it will in the coming years, are we ready and or willing to lose our access to published materials freely? Will information truely become a comodity for the wealthy only too? Shame on the publishers for clouding the issue in such a way. We are not the dumb (are we?).
Companies who cry for help when someone makes them obsolete deserve to be made obsolete. I am looking forward to correlating my internet research with hard text works without having to go to the library.
All libraries are not funded equally, and an alternative to driving downtown to my local University library is welcome. If the whole work was going to be posted in it's entirety I could see a legitimate gripe, but if only parts relevant to the search come up, that sounds fine. It may just DRUM UP interest.
This issue will become a serious problem when lightweight, foldable screens become ubiquitous. Portability is the one thing that books and print media have going for it. When digital text media readers become really light and unobtrusive is when I will never look back. Books will go the way of Vinyl, you'll have some hardcore fans, but the mainstream will leave it behind.
Then get ready for printers, typesetters, and Lumberjacks to all cry foul.
However, uneversity presses are generally non-profit organizations, so they generally price their materials to cover the costs associated with producing, storing and distributing them.
If the materials are available free online, then all those costs are eliminated.
If someone still wants a nicely bound hardcopy, then that person has the choice of getting one printed at a local print shop. The university press can also offer on demand printing for a cost covering fee.
I guess I don't understand their objection to having their materials available without any work required from them.
A republic cannot succeed till it contains a certain body of men imbued with the principles of justice and honour.
Indeed. And that, as I've pointed out here before amid cries of trolling, does make legal justification for other Google features -- Google Cache in particular, but also Google Groups and potentially things like Google Image Search -- uncertain at best.
If anything, it sounds like this project would be on much safer legal ground, as long as (a) they really are only reproducing content that's no longer covered by copyright, and (b) they pay suitable licensing fees for all the material they transfer to their database that's still covered by copyright.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Oh, fortunate you! I tried reading Small Gods on line just now, and when I tried to look at page 8 (having already read 1-7), it told me:
So, you probably could write such a script, but it won't be nearly as straight-forward as you imagined, and, if they're tracking IP rather than cookies (I allow cookies from Google), will be a big, fat nuisance.
See what I've been reading.
It defies logic to deny that people who make money selling books will not be harmed if someone else provides free copies of those books.
I don't know about you, but I hate reading anything over a few pages online. Who wants to read an entire book on computer? Not many people I'd imagine. Printed books are far superior technology to the electronic kind.
The publishers should sue Google and Google should be required to pay the publishers each time a publication is accessed via Google.
Unless of course Google only provides short 1 or 2 page excert of a copyrighted book. Google then sells "buy this book" links to booksellers. Everyone wins. This seems far more likely than Google making the entire book available online. Obviously that's breaking copyright law.
AccountKiller
Doctorow's assertion, of course, is entirely anecdotal. Where are the numbers that might substantiate it?
Reminds me of an "anecdotal proof" that I like to use to confuse people who think that anecdotes can't prove anything.
Hereabouts there are a number of "tech" bookstores, mostly at colleges but not entirely. If you walk in, the first thing you see is the display of the current tech bestsellers. A quick check will verify that almost all of these are available online, usually in PDF form, and most of the downloads are free. But there the hard copy is, sitting in the display that's reserved for bestsellers.
It's even worse: If you open the books, most of they have a foreword that tells you about the online download. Most give the URL.
So how can the sales possibly be nonzero? They're being given away free, and they tell you right up front that you can get them free. But people walk into the bookstores and buy them. Are these people idiots? Given the usual clientele of these stores, I'd guess not.
Now, I'll point out that this is in fact "just another anecdote". I haven't given any numbers. I haven't said anything that would prove that there are any sales at all.
But these books wouldn't be on those particular shelves unless the people running the store thought that they'd sell. Some of these stores have been there for years. The people running them aren't idiots. They are successful businessmen making the judgement that these books are good ones to display up front.
So here we have rather convincing "anecdotal evidence" that giving things away free doesn't necessarily kill sales. It may well be helping sales (but that's really hard to infer from anecdotes).
Actually, I also wonder if there are real numbers on the topic. I haven't yet seen any that I trust. But seeing things being listed as bestsellers when they're available free online is sorta convincing that something funny is going on here.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Being able to read a contract doesn't help when they all say "We own you". It's an industry standard contract ...
True in general, but there are some interesting exceptions in academia.
For example, last year the publishers of Nature changed their copyright rules. They now require that the authors retain copyright of anything published in Nature (and require a contract stating that the copyright can't be assigned without Nature's permission, preventing heavy-handed university admins from demanding the copyright after publication).
They have announced that they are returning the copyright of all previously-published papers to the original authors.
They also stated that papers published in Nature can be put online, but only on sites that give the authors complete control over the paper's files. In fact, they actively encourage putting your papers online, six months after publication. They also strongly encourage making all original data available online, unless there's a good technical reason that it can't be done. Information on obtaining physical materials (such as biological samples) should also be available.
This is significant in a number of fields for which Nature is the top-status publication. If you've accepted research money that requires giving the copyright to the funding agency, you can no longer get your results published in Nature. If your institution claims the copyright on your work, you can't be published in Nature.
Their stated goals were that published authors should retain the rights to their own work, and that others should be able to build on your published results.
There is serious discussion going on in academia about forcing other publishers to adopt a similar policy. This may not be possible with for-profit publishers. But many publications are produced by professional societies that are controlled by their members. There's a good chance that they will all soon adopt similar rules.
Loss of control of your own work is a growing scandal in much of academia. But people are figuring out that they just might have the power to fix the problem. After all, if Nature can do it, why can't every other academic society?
(It'll be interesting to see if Nature maintains these policies)
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
I'm not a huge book fan or anything, I actually love computers, but come on!
I like the fact that I don't have to worry about a book running out of batteries or recharging it.
The display never gives me a headache (reading small, lit displays in the dark sometimes does)
If I'm on a page that I know I will want to get back to, I can stick my finger between the sheets. For longer storage, I can place the bookmark there.
If I want to reference a previous event, I can usually flip to it within seconds.
I have a great indexing system called a bookshelf. I don't have to remember which CD I put it on or if canceling my audible account will make that book go away for the rest of my life (Well, that's for audible books, but I'm sure the same applies to any DRM controled media).
I can set it down on it's face to save the place if I have to jump up, and if I don't get to come back for a few days, it'll still be there.
None of these break me out of the character I'm living through the book.
You know, honestly, this excersize is kind of pointless because I can't come up with a single reason to read a book online. I even print out source code to read when I really want to think about it/mark it up. Why would I do that if paper wasn't a superior medium?
Actually, publishers do routinely attempt to claim copyright over PD material. This is especially visible in the music publishing business. Look at any edition of the works of Bach, Mozart or Beethoven. You'll find copyright notices.
Now, you and I may realize that this can't possibly cover the notes. It obviously covers only that specific print edition. But the copyright notices never seem to make that clear. They're always a vague copyright notice with a year and publisher, but no information at all about what they claim to own.
The intent of this is clear. They are attempting to mislead their customers into thinking that the publisher owns the music. And there have been cases reported that clearly show this intent.
There is now a fair amount of music online in an assortment of public formats. It's mostly older music, due to copyright problems with music of the past century. There have been a number of reports from people who have received a nasty letter from a publisher, demanding that they remove some particular piece of music from their web site. The person does a bit of research, and sends back a reply saying something like "That music was published by so-and-so in Paris in 1783. The file is in computerized format X, and is not a scan of any publication. How do you claim to own the rights to this file?" The publisher slinks off and is never heard from again - until they make a similar attempt with a different piece of music.
Such incidents make it clear that the publishers are intentionally attempting to defraud musicians with bogus copyright claims. But it's nothing new. It's what publishers have done for ages, ever since copyright was invented.
I've read of similar attempts to claim copyright on works of Shakespeare. This was for the original work, in English, not a translation, and not a scan of a published book.
Some publishers have no shame at all. If they can con you into believing that they own something, they will do so.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.