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Innovators Are Older Than Ever

GrokSoup writes "A new study shows that great achievements in science are produced by older innovators today than they were a century ago. Using data on Nobel Prize winners and great inventors, the author shows that the age at which noted innovations are produced has increased by approximately 6 years over the 20th Century. This runs contrary to accepted wisdom in science, which says that most scientists peak in their 20s. It is also welcome news to those of us who have not yet, ahem, done our Nobel-winning work."

30 of 221 comments (clear)

  1. Well yes by keesh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because these days, everyone is expected to waste three or four years memorising things that can easily be looked up, rather than actually learning anything useful or cutting edge in a degree.

    1. Re:Well yes by Rei · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree. Modern technological innovations are more and more dependant on having a large scientific knowledge base, which takes time to acquire. This, to me, seems the main reason for the increase - not some shift from a "golden age" in education. I would only expect this number to increase in the future.

      --
      Aeris Died For Your Sins.
    2. Re:Well yes by alienfluid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why is this a "waste"? Do you expect to do groundbreaking physics research without knowing and understanding the fundamental laws or even basic calculus? There is no point in re-inventing the wheel and so some time spent in reading literature is time well spent.

    3. Re:Well yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why yes, because memorising huge lists of standard integrals and wave equations for exams equates to having a large scientific knowledge base, and knowing where to find huge lists of standard integrals and wave equations and being able to use said lists in exams does not.

    4. Re:Well yes by keesh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is a big difference between understanding and memorising.

    5. Re:Well yes by Rei · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Um, no. For example, lets say that you want to come up with an innovation relating to modelling of airflow turbulence. Go ahead and try and do that without first learning the Navier-Stokes equations and familiarizing yourself with at least some of the dozen or so turbulence models. Of course, try learning the navier stokes equations and turbulence models without a solid physics background as well. Try to get that physics background without a calculus and algebra background, and try to get that without a basic mathematics background.

      It's not about "memorization" - it's about learning, and there's an awful lot to learn to be prepared to work in a modern scientific field.

      --
      Aeris Died For Your Sins.
    6. Re:Well yes by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By taking the time to learn and memorize these modern 'innovations' aren't they grounding their thoughts into the same kind of mentality they are trying to break free of in the first place?

      The problem is that you are equating the idea of hidebound mentality with the tools necessary to do basic scientific work. If you have good teachers you can obtain the latter without getting caught up in the former. If not, well, you are probably likely to get the former without the latter.

    7. Re:Well yes by Adrilla · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I sorta think of it like guitar playing: Yeah you'll get an innovator like Jimi Hendrix occasionally, but for most people, without the lessons, they wont accomplish much or they'll eventually learn the basics, but it'll take them much longer than they needed.

      --

      "Plans are for fools! Oglethorpe, the plutonian (Aqua Teen Hunger Force)
    8. Re:Well yes by NoseBag · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. As is stated in other posts, rote memorization is not "learning". To be able to quickly and automatically integrate new phenomena and data with already-understood principles requires that the "old" info be known forwards and backwards.

      Hell, to even IDENTIFY new phenomena required a thorough understanding of past work. Even more importantly, to spot contradictions in past work requires deep understanding of said past efforts.

      There really is no shortcut. And since there is more past effort to learn, the longer (perhaps) it takes to reach ones peak.

      --
      Cloned foods give the statement "We had that last week!" a whole new meaning.
    9. Re:Well yes by Inspector+Lopez · · Score: 4, Insightful
      There is no point in re-inventing the wheel

      Often heard, but not true. In fact, wheel re-invention is extremely useful.
      • "pretty good" programming languages were available decades ago, but people keep inventing new ones, and some of the new ones are pretty great.
      • Mathematicians and physicists frequently reinvent things, because better tools become available. example: proofs of Stokes' Theorem and Gauss's Law require a bit of effort in classical calculus, but both become special cases of a much more general theorem when you have the tools of differential forms available.
      • GNU/linux is pretty clearly the result of wheel reinvention. some of us think this has been a pretty useful activity.
      • wheel reinvention is obviously useful as a pedagogical tool. How many million times have students laid out some elementary circuit in VLSI, say, an eight bit adder? Would you hire someone to design a chip who had read all the literature, even memorized it, but had never actually laid out a single chip?
      • wheel reinvention is a critical (and underused) feature of modern science. In principle, peer-review is a kind of wheel reinvention, however it is usually in the form of checking the math, if you will (that's not even always possible http://www.google.com/search?q=four+color+theorem) . The best kind of peer review is duplication: can somebody else duplicate the experment? It is a real tragedy in modern Science that whoever was First gets all the credit, when the person who was Second should earn our deep gratitude for independently checking the result.

      Wheel reinvention provides a critical opportunity for the advance of science and technology, by creating an opportunity to find a better way, and to detect previously undiscovered vulnerabilities.
    10. Re:Well yes by mindaktiviti · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Getting all of that background should be done by the time you're 17-19, not 25-30. Kids should be able to finish high school calculus in grade 8, not grade 12. We need to expect more from them, otherwise they will do the bare minimum. The public school system moves at the pace of the lowest common denominator. ...Well, no that's not right, but they definitely move on the lower end of the spectrum. Also, in elementary/high school you are generally rewarded for memorization as opposed to expressing a higher form of understanding. That doesn't happen until sometime late in university. In some instances I believe that school can inhibit your inventiveness, because it certainly doesn't push you to learn on your own. You just have to do your homework so you can study for those exams, which will get you into university/college. It's all about marks marks marks.

    11. Re:Well yes by jpflip · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's a big difference between knowledge and dogma. Certain fields (i.e. many scientific fields) incorporate a lot of experimental facts, a lot of successful ideas, and a lot of failed ideas. You need to know a great deal of this stuff in order to make progress in the field - even geniuses don't just sit in a room and realize how the real world "must" be without knowing a great deal about how it actually is (Einstein studied for his Ph.D. before he came up with relativity). Too many people think they have the next "theory of everything", for example, when in fact they just don't know enough about experimental results and mathematics to see why it doesn't work.

      There is, of course, a danger of becoming too dogmatic about things and stifling creativity. My feeling, however, is that great innovations come about through a combination of (1) very creative individuals with knowledge of what has come before, and (2) happy accidents, encountered by open-minded and methodical people.

    12. Re:Well yes by tmortn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes but do you really think that for a student that finds intrest in these things it takes 18 some odd years of formal education to learn them ?

      Current mass education systems are far more successfull at turning out mindless sheep that simply accept what they are told than fundamentally grounded eggheads that push the edges of our knowledge. Basic math, calc and physics do not take years upon years. For someone that is motivated and interested, they can be picked up in days, weeks at the most.

      To me the modern classroom is like the equivalent of those A++ certification classes. They cost alot, teach you nothing and give you a stamp of approval that only means a damn thing to HR weenies.

      The average age of ground breaking work is going up not because it takes that long to grasp the fundamentals. But because we have a system in place that blocks most from having any reasonable chance to learn, or more importanly apply, those fundamentals before going through a monolitic education process unable to adapt to the needs of the gifted student.

      --
      I don't ask you to be me. I only ask you not expect me to be you.
    13. Re:Well yes by cyclop · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Does a programmer really have to know what is the function of mitochondria?

      Yes. And vice versa. My interest in programming greatly helped me working in biotechnology, for example.

      People should of course specialize, but specialization doesn't mean ignoring the whole world around you. This is a disaster for society already (here in Italy we have to vote for a referendum on stem cell research next week: you can imagine how much even learned people misunderstand the problem) Kids can and should simply learn much more at school than today. Stupidity is incurable, but ignorance not.

      Moreover, most interesting things in science today happen at the interfaces between knowledge fields. The world of science would be much poorer in a world like the one you seem to want.

      --
      -- Patent no.123456: A way to personalize /. comments with a sig attached to the end.
    14. Re:Well yes by Inspector+Lopez · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Although I understand zkn's sentiment, isn't it really equivalent to a regime in which nothing is checked?

      Let me offer an example. Several years ago, a reporter named Byron Acohido wrote a series of articles about rudder problems in the Boeing 737 (http://flash.uoregon.edu/F97/acohido.html). In these articles, BA identified the rudder as the likely cause of two crashes (he's right), and he outlined his perception of slow response and stonewalling by both Boeing and the FAA. BA went on to win quite a few awards, including a Pulitzer, for these articles. In particular, BA chastised Boeing for not moving rapidly to correct the rudder problem.

      But BA's articles missed some critical, absolutely critical analysis:
      • airplanes are stupendously complex. They are perhaps the quintessential example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
      • the 737 is a safe airplane. When BA flew out to accept his Pulitzer, he could not have been safer on any plane other than a 737, even with the original rudder.
      • the 737 had a known, rare, failure mode, which flight crews were trained to deal with.
      • correcting this flaw hastily could easily have introduced new flaws that were not known or understood.
      • In fact, the "Do Something!" imperative offered by BA's articles could, quite conceivably, have made the 737 more dangerous.
      It may be the case that Boeing and the FAA could have behaved better --- but Acohido's articles revealed a tremendous lack of understanding of objective safety statistics. The public was ill served by the accolades that Acohido received for his articles.

      (In case you wondered: in my day job I'm a professor in the Pacific Northwest, and I do ionospheric physics. I have no contact with the FAA. About a decade ago I had a small grant from Boeing, to do a project that I was spectacularly unqualifed to perform, but which needed a PI.)
  2. Maleable by Boronx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If we had any brains in our heads, we'd be exposing 8-12 year olds to ground breaking work, when their brains are still maleable.

    1. Re:Maleable by HyperBlazer · · Score: 2, Insightful
      First, I'm sorry that your program was so slow. Mine was not: multiplication began in second grade, and the brilliant idea of "self-paced math" got me starting so-called "pre-Algebra" at the end of 4th grade. Then the system failed, but in any case, I was certainly not doing multiplication tables in grade 9.

      The issue is that there is a reason that curricula (math in particular) are structured as they are. You know when something that just didn't make sense for the longest time suddenly clicks? That comes from a combination of age/development and exposure to ideas. The current math educational system is designed according to an "expected" profile of brain development, providing the new ideas when the student is expected to be ready for them. The accuracy of the current expectations are fair game for debate, but I think that your compression vastly overestimates the potential of the average 8 year old.

      Finally, for those who do want more, you never "have to wait" until your classroom offers the material. In the USA, at least, public libraries are excellent for self-teaching. (In France... well, sneak into university libraries. No one cares.) Structuring mainstream education to challenge the highest achievers guarantees the failure of the majority.

    2. Re:Maleable by quandrum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Perhaps I'm being cynical here, but it seems our education system is designed primarily to teach the bulk of the population for a life of boring repetition. In the bulk of jobs today, creativity and critical thinking aren't considered an asset. However, the ability to do the same thing for 8 hours is.

  3. The product of a century of achievement? by ettlz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I hardly think this is surprising, given the sheer volume of knowledge and understanding a researcher must absorb to make any advancement at the cutting edge of science today. It really does take around half a life-time's worth of study.

  4. Building on previous work by alienfluid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the reason for this is that any new invention/discovery now takes years of reading and understanding the basic work that has already been done. Scientists in the past did not have so much background literature/work that they had to comprehend as the scientists today have to. This is of course not saying that their discoveries were rudimentary or inconsequential, but just that they did not have to spend so much time understading already done work.

    farhanahmed.net

    1. Re:Building on previous work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Exactly. Consider this:

      Back in the 80's a single person could create a top-ranked video game. Nowadays it is nearly impossible for one person to do that in a reasonable amount of time. This isn't because it's technically impossible, it is just because of the shear amount of work involved (graphics, code, etc.). As we create bigger and better stuff it just takes more and more energy to create it.

      and you thought computers were suppose to help us. :) It's too bad more people are not focusing on using technology to help us more easily make technology. Wow, I bet there is noble prize material right there.

  5. I'm jealous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    These people grew up in an era devoid of video games, tv, government-mandated mass advertising / marketing, and centralized media.

    Back when people actually read books.. and evolution wasn't such a bad word.

  6. Simplest Explanation by KhromeGnome · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd say the easiest explanation is that as the existing fields of research get deeper and deeper, it simply takes longer to get to the cutting edge. During the renaissance, someone like Leonardo could be on the cutting edge of dozens of fields, whereas today, in a field like mathematics or physics, the sheer amount of back-reading you have to do will take you well into your twenties. An interesting question is whether human potential for discovery is ultimately going to be limited by our lifespan or the fact that we 'peak' during our twenties.

  7. The prerequisites are so much higher than before by hung_himself · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not surprising at all. The number of scientists is so much larger than before and the literature is so expansive that nearly all obvious things are or have been tried by somebody at sometime. Typically, it takes many years of trial and error (mostly error) before a young turk realizes this and starts to be able to narrow down the approaches that might actually work.

    Perhaps even more important, is the amount of technology that is required before cutting-edge research can be done. With the possible exception of algorithm research (even then clusters help), this technology is not available to the general public. The young scientist will only have access to this technology in his/her "training" phase (which in biology is usually most of the 20's) while under the supervision of a more established scientist (who would get most of the credit should a breakthrough occur...). Even after starting up a new lab - it takes a few years to get everything in place and funding set up before you can try out those new ideas etc...

  8. The way in which academia by BlightThePower · · Score: 3, Insightful

    works now favours older more senior staff so its hardly surprising if they then scoop the plaudits. Funding is increasingly "targeted" making younger researchers fight against stacked odds. Of course when we are talking of public money its hard to argue against the position that money should go to long proven performers. Add to this that academic promotion is largely a matter of dead-mans shoes for anyone who isn't a genuine genius (ie. for people who are merely extremely good at what they do) and there is an aging workforce then I think that could quite easily add up to an average shift of six years. In short I can't access the full text but I think this is a result of policy more than anything else. There are a lot of big ideas floating about but having the means to make them stick is another matter.

    --
    Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
  9. You're missing the point, dude by melted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Think of all you learn as of power tools. Sure you can go to Home Depot and buy a bunch of tools. Will this make you a good carpenter? No. You don't know how to use the tools and how to produce stuff people may find useful.

    Same with science. In order to do research you have to know your tools. Math, physics, chemistry, etc. Four years is not enough to give you these things even on the most basic level. I've spent 6 years getting my M.Sc. degree (not in the US) and I wish I could go back and spend a couple of years more, knowing what I will need in the field.

    Unfortunately (or fortunately) I now have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay off, so going back to school is not an option financially.

    If you're a student right now, absorb the knowledge as efficiently as you can. Go really deep into subjects, understand them on the most fundamental level. Know how to use your tools. You sure won't be able to recall the most intricate details of what you're studying right now three years down the road, but you'll at least know where to look.

  10. Speaking as an inventor by DanielMarkham · · Score: 3, Insightful

    who just celebrated his 40th birthday, I for one welcome our new geriatric intellectual overlords.

    Seriously -- doesn't this make sense? 100 years ago you went around and dug in some rocks and junk piles and you were discovering stuff. Put a magnifying glass on a drop of pond water and it's a whole new world. Nowadays the _baseline_ for inventions has grown much more than before.

    For instance, my invention deals with measuring how well intellectual processes are being performed at an organization. To get to where I'm at, you have to first invent IP, then process control, then computer technology, etc -- and for me to come up with it I had to understand enough of that previous work to mutate it into something useful for people.

    What concerns me is that with more and more specialization, there seems to be a dearth of "cross pollenization" among sciences. Sure, there are specific programs, but it's almost impossible to find people with a truly broad and moderately deep general knowledge of sciences. My opinion only -- we've got a lot of brillant people but lack enough people who think outside the box and put the pieces together.

  11. Great- a $5 article! by kevcol · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Gee this is a wonderful submission. People are supposed to discuss the topic an abstract with about 10 sentences, unless you want to buy it for $5.

    Can't the guy do a little more research to post some other like articles that we don't have to pay for?

    Well, I guess no one RTFAs anyway so maybe this isn't any different.

  12. Logic vs. Intuition by bowloframen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There was an interesting article on this topic on Slate (http://www.slate.com/id/2082960) two years ago. The article points out that the stereotype of the mathematician as a youthful prodigy is no longer the rule but the exception. It includes an interesting quote by mathemtician Henri Poincaré: "[L]ogic and intuition have each their necessary role. Each is indispensable." By logic, I'm guessing he means a more deliberate method of arriving at an answer, something that does require those years of learning and research, while intuition refers to that singular moment of clarity, the very thing that might've struck a twenty-year old mathematician a hundred years ago. So what's changed? Like Poincaré says, both are indispensable. You can stay in school for twenty-years, memorizing every theorem, every proof, every fundamentals of mathematics to heart, but if you don't have the capacity for intuition, you are never going to come upon something new. Likewise, even if the potential for greatness is in you, you won't be able to achieve it without first laying out your foundations. And that's all there is to it. There's simply more to learn, and without that learning, you'll never have a chance to exercise your intuition.

  13. Collaborations + Research Labs by doyen2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I think one of the reasons for the increase in age is , as pointed before, there is a to understand and developing intuition with subjects far removed from everyday experience does take time and effort.

    The other main reason is these days science requires big resources to test an idea or investigate a concept. For example 1984 Physics Nobel prize was given to Carlo Rubbia and Simon Van der Meer for "their decisive contributions to the large project, which led to the discovery of the field particles W and Z, communicators of weak interaction". Carlo Rubia was not the actual discoverer but he was the project leader and it was his idea (Simon Van der Meer was the project leader in the accelerator side) and he was the one who puffed and puffed until everything got build. You have to be pretty senior and with credentials to go around puffing and getting people to take you notice.

    If you take another example.. the invention of the transisor by John Bardeen, William Shockley, and Walter Brattain, scientists at the Bell Telephone Laboratories. Other scientists in the early 1900s had seen the effect but they had not suceeded in reproducing the effect. It took a company with great resources for them to have everything necessary to make it work. I think the purity of Germanium being one. Again to have such a previldge position at a young age is pretty rare.

    Even Isaac Newton.. he was young when he came up with the tools he required for creating the models.. but it took him a good deal of 20years after that for everything to actually fall in place and for Principia to be written. If you read James Gleick's biography you can see his confusion and the mighty struggle he has. Apart from trying to understand the physics behind it he has to develop a method of investigation which today we take for granted. Slowly, as he is being pushed by his critics, he irons out the wrinkles in the work.

    Cheers, A.