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Apple/Intel Speculation Running Rampant
6031769 writes "ZD Net are reporting a rumour that Steve Jobs will announce Apple are going to move to an Intel chip base at their worldwide developer conference today. Still just a rumour, but could this be the masterstroke Apple have been promising or is it a blind alley?" Lots of submissions about this one, but no one knows for sure - there have been stories about how AMD is hurt by this - but I think my favorite debunking of it is the piece by John Gruber on Daring Fireball.
At this point pretty much everyone is saying something about it: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=nn&ie=UT F-8&ncl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4612 951.stm
I heard Dvorak on the episode 8 twitcast basically bragging he "called" this x86 switch a couple of years back.
he's completely extatic about it, and discuss the x86 switch as a done deal.
He's also going off on his blog.
I'm still not sold, and the debunk arguments by Gruber seems reasonable.
The Register weighs in with two articles this morning.
Apple shifts to Intel: What is all the fuss about
Apple to announce Intel 'Switch' - WSJ
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Except for small islands of assembly language software, the switch from the Motorola 680X0 to the PPC in the 90's was actually quite succesful. They put an emulator into the OS and 95%+ of things just ran fine, but a bit slow at first. Evenutally native PPC software came out and on things went with minimal hiccups.
Fact: NeXT used an i860 (64-bit RISC) graphics accelerator. Manufactured by Intel.
Fact: Intel manufactures ARM (Advanced RISC Machine) processors.
Intel knows a thing or about RISC chips. Intel manufacturing PPCs is far more probable than Apple jumping to x86.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Yes but this could be the last time they do it, and it would give it more of a reassuring "once and for all" impression.
Well, as someone who works at Intel's inter-corporation licensing center in Austin, Texas (we're responsible for licensing Intel properties for use in OEM products) I would be surprised if this is announced considering I haven't heard anything about this. If my vice-president comes up to me this afternoon and says, "I need you to meet with XXXXX at Apple tomorrow to hammer out this deal," I will be a a loss. These kinds of contracts takes months and sometimes years to hammer out and involve a phalanx of attorneys.
I cannot understand that some people think that Intel would manufacture PowerPC chips. There is no sane people who would believe that, people only say it because they want it to be true and don't want to see the reality.
There are a lot of reasons for this. One obvious reason is that it would take atleast 3-4 years for Intel do have a PowerPC product ready for Apple. Intel cannot just take an existing PowerPC design and manufacture it. It doesn't work that way.
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
Using "Intel Inside" sticker isn't a requirement for anyone. However, if you choose to use the sticker, you can get co-op marketing dollars from Intel for doing so, so there's often a sizable financial incentive to use it. (There are also a fair number of restructions on how the dollars can be used--basically only for advertising/marketing products or product lines that are 100% Intel.)
Can you say binary incompatability?
They could just have their dev tools use "fat binaries". These are binaries that support both architectures.
They could then (theoretically) have PPC chips in some computers in the product line, and x86 chips in others. IIRC MacOS supported fat binaries duiring the original transition in the early 1990s. NeXT (the progenitor of OS X) also supported them.
It could be a nightmare for developers when it comes to testing, though.
Microsoft bought Connectix (authors of the VirtualPC software that lets Macs emulate Wintel boxes) and then quickly dropped their main product for no readily aparrent reason (other than pure spite). ... This leaves Apple with a VirtualPC shaped hole in their 'switch' marketing campaign.
Really? I guess my mind must be playing tricks on me; I was sure I had a copy of Microsoft Virtual PC 7.0 on my Mac...
WSJ does actually say x86 chips, not that Apple is just using Intel as their new manufacturer
best college pickem site ever: pickem.terrbear.org
Only the G4 series can do endian swaps. The G5 cant, that's a big part of the reason for the Virtual PC delay. It relied on the G4 endian swap operation for speed. They had to come up with a method to emulate that for the G5.
Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
Sure, there are problems with the G5, but FreeScale is about to release a dual-core, 64-bit CPU with clock speeds starting at around 2GHz, integrated memory controller and 3 integrated GigE controllers (and a few other things I've forgotten), with a power consumption in line with current G5s. Abandoning IBM (at least in the short term) makes sense, but abandoning PowerPC does not. More speculation here.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Piss off Microsoft, like IBM did, and Microsoft will invent lots of new ways to break your software. You just can't keep up with such a moving target, even if Microsoft isn't actively trying to destroy you.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Apple supposedly licensed software from Transitive that would let them run existing binaries on x86.
Intel is CISC, PowerPC is RISC. It's a heck of a lot easier (and faster) to emulate CISC on a RISC (building complex instructions by using a huge pile of really fast, really simple instructions and tons of registers) than it is to do the opposite. Some magical new technology won't do much to change this fundamental problem. Emulating the PPC on an Intel chip is god-awful slow. Look at things like PearPC, taking hours to boot OS X. Emulating XP on a mac takes about a 50% speed hit. HUUUUGE difference. Emulation is an option for both camps, but emulating PPC is not a practical option.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
The company is in better shape financially now than just about any time in it's history. If you are gunna do something this dramatic then right now is the best time. The Ipod (and derivi will float the company for at least another year.
It's about time the folks at Apple admitted defeat and left the dark side for the saving light and grace of the real PC world (Nasty troll dig I know, but it had to be said ;). Of course I think many Applites will be shedding tears as it will remove one of their large arguements as to why their machines are so much better, the power processor.
My question is, if the current line of processors Apple uses are so much better than the Intel or AMD lineups, then why is Apple switching to Intel? To go to a worse CPU? I think not. I think Steve Jobs just pulled the rug out from under his overtly fanatical section of his following. Then again, perhaps that will aslo work to his benefit. It is hard to sell a machine to a person who perceives that association with it is bad. Many perceive the Apple as just such a beast. Quell the overspoken fanatical left and right wings and perhaps your product becomes more saleble to those in the middle. Contrary to what many current Apple followers may believe, this may actually broaden Apple's markets and allow it to become more than just the niche product it has so long been sequestered to.
....gossip rag.
Seriously though, I wrote the Inq piece, and I do have it from an independant source, and I had the info before CNet broke theirs, so it isn't a case of someone seeing CNet and running to me. I didn't get times though, which is why I was waiting.
On a related note, it would not surprise me if the be-turtlenecked megalomaniac had a hissy fit (a given), and put off the announcement. He can't cancel it, but putting it off to screw the journos would not be out of character.
There is more to this story though, and I will put some up as soon as I get bac from Computex, plane in 6 hours. Aargh.
-Charlie
Apple to Use Intel Microprocessors Beginning in 2006
WWDC 2005, SAN FRANCISCO--June 6, 2005--At its Worldwide Developer Conference today, Apple® announced plans to deliver models of its Macintosh® computers using Intel microprocessors by this time next year, and to transition all of its Macs to using Intel microprocessors by the end of 2007. Apple previewed a version of its critically acclaimed operating system, Mac OS® X Tiger, running on an Intel-based Mac® to the over 3,800 developers attending CEO Steve Jobs' keynote address. Apple also announced the availability of a Developer Transition Kit, consisting of an Intel-based Mac development system along with preview versions of Apple's software, which will allow developers to prepare versions of their applications which will run on both PowerPC and Intel-based Macs.
"Our goal is to provide our customers with the best personal computers in the world, and looking ahead Intel has the strongest processor roadmap by far," said Steve Jobs, Apple's CEO. "It's been ten years since our transition to the PowerPC, and we think Intel's technology will help us create the best personal computers for the next ten years."
"We are thrilled to have the world's most innovative personal computer company as a customer," said Paul Otellini, president and CEO of Intel. "Apple helped found the PC industry and throughout the years has been known for fresh ideas and new approaches. We look forward to providing advanced chip technologies, and to collaborating on new initiatives, to help Apple continue to deliver innovative products for years to come."
"We plan to create future versions of Microsoft Office for the Mac that support both PowerPC and Intel processors," said Roz Ho, general manager of Microsoft's Macintosh Business Unit. "We have a strong relationship with Apple and will work closely with them to continue our long tradition of making great applications for a great platform."
"We think this is a really smart move on Apple's part and plan to create future versions of our Creative Suite for Macintosh that support both PowerPC and Intel processors," said Bruce Chizen, CEO of Adobe.
The Developer Transition Kit is available starting today for $999 to all Apple Developer Connection Select and Premier members. Further information for Apple Developer Connection members is available at developer.apple.com. Intel plans to provide industry leading development tools support for Apple later this year, including the Intel C/C++ Compiler for Apple, Intel Fortran Compiler for Apple, Intel Math Kernel Libraries for Apple and Intel Integrated Performance Primitives for Apple.
Intel (www.intel.com http://www.intel.com/> ), the world's largest chip maker, is also a leading manufacturer of computer, networking and communications products.
Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s with the Apple II and reinvented the personal computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Today, Apple continues to lead the industry in innovation with its award-winning desktop and notebook computers, OS X operating system, and iLife and professional applications. Apple is also spearheading the digital music revolution with its iPod portable music players and iTunes online music store.
Apple is going to Intel chips officially.
Jobs: "We've been through many transistions. 680x0 to PowerPC, Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X. Today we begin a third transition. It's true; We are switching to Intel."
10:25 am @ WWDC - Live coverage @ newwin.net
10:26am PDT - "Now, let's go to the big topic: Transitions."
10:27am PDT - 1994-1996 Moto 68K -> PowerPC. "I wasn't hear then, but from everything I hear the team did a great job." 2001-2003: OS9 - OS X.
10:28am PDT - "It's time for a third transition. And yes, (puts up slide that says): It's true." Next slide is one word: "Why?"
10:29am PDT - "I stood up two years ago and promised this (3.0G PowerMac), and we haven't been able to deliver." Steve says it's bigger than that, though. No roadmap for the future based on PowerPC - they can't see a future.
10:30am PDT - Intel offers not just increased performance, but reduced power consumption. Transition will be complete by WWDC '07.
- sigs are for wimps.
Just now in the keynote - "I stood up here two years ago and promised you 3.0 GHz. I think a lot of you would like a G5 in your PowerBook, and we haven't been able to deliver that to you. But as we look ahead, and though we've got great products now, and great PowerPC products still to come, we can envision great products we want to build, and we can't envision how to build them with the current PowerPC roadmap." - Steve Jobs
They will be using intel chiops and just showed osx running on a p4. How long until the next version of osx is cracked to run on any x86?
or else!
The rumors are true: Intel will be inside
Jobs talked about the major transitions in the Mac's life -- starting from the Mac's Motorola 68000-series processor to PowerPC. "The PowerPC set Apple up fro the next decade. It was a good move," he said.
"The second transition was even better -- the transition from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X that we just did," he continued. "This was a brain transplant. And even though these operating systems (9 and x) vary only by one in name, they are very different, and this has set Apple up for the next 20 years."
As the Intel logo lowered on the stage screen, Jobs said, "We are going to make the transition from PowerPC to Intel processors, and we are going to do it for you now, and for our customers next year. Why? Because we want to be making the best computer for our customers looking forward."
"I stood up here two years ago and promised you 3.0 GHz. I think a lot of you would like a G5 in your PowerBook, and we haven't been able to deliver that to you," said Jobs. "But as we look ahead, and though we've got great products now, and great PowerPC products still to come, we can envision great products we want to build, and we can't envision how to build them with the current PowerPC roadmap," said Jobs.
Intel processors provide more performance per watt than PowerPC processors do, said Jobs. "When we look at future roadmaps, mid-2006 and beyond, we see PoweRPC gives us 15 units of perfomance per watt, but Intel's roadmap gives us 70. And so this tells us what we have to do," he explained.
Transition to Intel by 2007, and yes, Marklar exists
"Starting next year, we will introduce Macs with Intel processors," said Jobs. "This time next year, we plan to ship Macs with Intel processors. In two years, our plan is that the transition will be mostly complete, and will be complete by end of 2007."
Jobs then confirmed a long-held belief that Apple was working on an Intel-compatible version of Mac OS X that some have termed "Marklar."
Mac OS X has been "leading a secret double life" for the past five years, said Jobs. "So today for the first time, I can confirm the rumors that every release of Mac OS X has been compiled for PowerPC and Intel. This has been going on for the last five years."
Jobs demonstrated a version of Mac OS X running on a 3.6GHz Pentium 4-processor equipped system, running a build of Mac OS X v10.4.1. He showed Dashboard widgets, Spotlight, iCal, Apple's Mail, Safari and iPhoto all working on the Intel-based system.
Apple needs developers' help to complete the transition
"We are very far along on this, but we're not done," said Jobs. "Which is why we're going to put it in your hands very soon, so you can help us finish it."
The future of Mac OS X development is moving to Xcode, said Jobs. Of Apple's top 100 developers, more than half -- 56 percent -- are already using Xcode, and 25 percent are in the process of switching to Xcode. "Less than 20 percent are not on board yet. Now is a good time to get on board," said Jobs.
Pooty tweet
Jobs then confirmed a long-held belief that Apple was working on an Intel-compatible version of Mac OS X that some have termed "Marklar." Mac OS X has been "leading a secret double life" for the past five years, said Jobs. "So today for the first time, I can confirm the rumors that every release of Mac OS X has been compiled for PowerPC and Intel. This has been going on for the last five years." Jobs demonstrated a version of Mac OS X running on a 3.6GHz Pentium 4-processor equipped system, running a build of Mac OS X v10.4.1. He showed Dashboard widgets, Spotlight, iCal, Apple's Mail, Safari and iPhoto all working on the Intel-based system.
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
Wow, it's true - from MacObserver.
[1:43 PM] We're getting a demonstaration of Mathematica at work. It's quite impressive, of course, and it's working on an Intel Mac. - posted by Dave
[1:42 PM] According to Mr. Gray, it took two hours to do this port. "We're talking about 20 lines of code out of millions from a dead cold start where he didn't even know why he was going." - posted by Dave
[1:41 PM] Mr. Gray is joking about getting "the most crazy calls from Apple," where Steve asked him on Wednesday night to come out to Apple and port Mathematica, one of the most complex apps on the planet to Intel by Monday. - posted by Dave
[1:39 PM] Asked a long time developer (Theo Grey of Wolfram Research, the makers of Mathematica) to come out to Apple and work on Intel. - posted by Dave
[1:38 PM] Developers applauded Steve when he said that both processors would be supported for a long time to come, and the core to this will be universal binaries. - posted by Dave
[1:37 PM] In a chart, Coca apps had half the "tweak" time as Xcode, but Steve emphasized that it will be easy. - posted by Dave
[1:37 PM] "Cocoa apps: A few minor tweaks and a recompile, and it just works. Widgets, scripts, and JAva just work." Xcode will take a few more tweaks. - posted by Dave
[1:35 PM] Looking at the developer's apps now. Everyone is on the edge of their seat. - posted by Dave
[1:34 PM] Steve confirmed all this, BTW, by saying the rumors have been true about how Apple had an Intel project. - posted by Dave
[1:33 PM] Today's demonstration has been done entirely on an Intel Mac. Steve is showing us how everything works. - posted by Dave
[1:33 PM] Every project done at Apple has been mandated to work on PowerPC and Intel. - posted by Dave