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Interview with Alexander Noe, PxScan Developer
wikinerd writes "I interviewed Alexander Noe, developer of the open source PxScan and PxView utilities. He recently received a cease-and-desist letter by Shinano Kenshi, the Japanese company which controls Plextor. His utilities provide similar functionality with PlexTools, sending special command sequences to Plextor DVD recorders that activate special features such as media quality check."
Why do they keep trying to hide this stuff from us?
The same goes for the Canon Digital Rebel, and everything else that has an artificial ceiling put on performance.
Just another example of an established company trying to push around the hard-working small-time developer. What else is new.
It was already slow for me:
0 5jun
The interview was completed through IRC chat. The whole text is released under a "verbatim copying" licence, so we encourage you to re-publish it if you wish (see the full licence at the end).
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: Hello, please introduce yourself and briefly describe the utilities you developed.
Alexander Noé: I'm Alexander Noé:, currently studying computer science at TU-Chemnitz. The utilities PxScan/PxView i've developed perform error scans on Plextor PX-712/716 and Plextor Premium drives. The tests are the same, but PlexTools had some handling I didn't like, for example you can run several tests on DVDs, but in PlexTools you couldn't trigger them at once, but rather had to trigger one test at one time. My goal was just to make all that more convenient.
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: You received a letter via email about these utilities. Who sent the letter and what did it say?
Alexander Noé: The letter was sent by lawyers working for Shinano Kenshi. The Lawyers claim those utilities would violate their clients rights.
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: Have you replied to this letter?
Alexander Noé: No, I haven't.
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: Why do you think the lawyers sent this letter, and what are their requests?
Alexander Noé: Plextor maybe sees me as competitor. However, they don't offer any Linux version, neither free nor for money, so I have absolutely no idea what their problem with pxlinux could possibly be. They demand that I cease-and-desist from any further infringements, and demand that I comply a list of all steps I've taken to ensure that their clients' rights will no longer be infringed.
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: Have you contacted a professional lawyer yet? Did you receive any legal advice?
Alexander Noé: A professional lawyer said that in his opinion, none of the accusations made by Shinano are justified.
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: Is the letter confidential, can you post it for everyone to see?
Alexander Noé: The letter itself is not explicitely marked as such, but I'm not sure if I have the right to publish an email sent to me in general without the sender agreeing on this.
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: In the last years there are increasingly more legal problems for free/libre/open-source software projects. Now software patents may be introduced in Europe. What are your views on this issue?
Alexander Noé: I *really* hope that software patents will not be introduced, but I can't do much about it... as I don't really understand lawyer and politician language, like most people, I can hardly assess the consequences software patents would cause, but it wouldn't make life of free developers easier.
Have your say! Discuss in Wikinerds Forum (unregistered users are welcome).
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: What do you plan to do now?
Alexander Noé: I'm waiting what will happen....
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: Anything more you want to say?
Alexander Noé: Considering that Plextor did, not long ago, announce that they would be supporting open-source, I really wonder what all this is supposed to be about. Either they support open-source, or at least "tolerate" it, or they don't.
Nikolaos S. Karastathis: The interview appears to be finished. Thank you very much!
The text of this article is Copyright (C) 2005 by Alexander Noé and Nikolaos S. Karastathis. Verbatim copying and redistribution of the entire text of this article are permitted provided this notice is preserved and a reference to its original location is provided: http://portal.wikinerds.org/interview-alex-noe-20
Specially since you buy the DRIVE not the software. The software is the COST of doing business. The problem is you have ignorant marketting and investors who think "everything has commercial value".
.doc file and give it out.
Look at Broadcom. They hold their hardware specs a closely guarded secret [for the most part] and the net affect is you can only use their wifi stuff [reliably] in windows... The problem is without the drivers the hardware has zero customer value. But giving out free drivers lets you SELL hardware since it now has value.
The sad thing it isn't even that you have to write the damn drivers. In the OSS world of BSD/Linux the kernel contributors would GLADLY write a driver for free if it meant they could use some quality hardware with the respective OS. So all it costs the hardware manufacturer is describing the interface [at the high level] of how to talk to the hardware. Since these documents are ROUTINELY produced internally so the software teams can write their windows drivers all it means is you re-brand the
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
The original source of this story is this thread on the CD Freaks Plextor DVD Burner Forum. I guess the comments in that thread tell a lot about what long time customers of Plextor think at the moment.
Seriously, serious legal threats usually don't arrive via email. Lawyers usually prefer to speak with certified letters and such, where they know it was received and who received it and when (and can prove it in court), and so in general anything received via email should be taken with a big grain of salt. Email is too unreliable (my spam filter ate it!) and just hasn't been around enough decades to make the legal system trust it. At most, they might send a certified letter and an email at the same time (and so the email will arrive first) but I suspect that even that's rare.
The email may be legitimate, and in this case it sounds like it probably is, but even so ... big grain of salt.
Plextor may be doing a couple things. First and foremost, they're making sure no unauthorized Open Source projects spring up. They have no interest in supporting the software unless they wrote it. I can understand this motivation. We all remember the Mandrake Linux release that killed some CD RW drives, and Plextor is no doubt concerned about a similar problem for them.
Next, they probably have some lawyers trolling the net, sending cease and desists to anyone writing "competing" software. This is a sadly common CYA issue, and is done more to demonstrate they've been actively protecting their patents and copyrights than anything else. If this is the case, a few e-mails between the developer and Plextor could resolve the problem and allow the software to continue being developed, assuming Plextor doesn't want the product squashed.
Then again, this could all be about unauthorized use of the Plextor name or graphics on the developer's web site. They could be doing this to protect their corporate branding, and to keep people from thinking the software is authorized or supported by Plextor.
Has anyone contacted Plextor about this?
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
From http://www.plextor-europe.com/all/contactus.asp
Plesae be polite. Explain why you are boycotting their products, and why this is bad PR.
PLEXTOR EUROPE
Plextor Europe is located at:
Excelsiorlaan 9 B-1930 Zaventem, Belgium
Phone: +32-2-725-55-22
FAX: +32-2-725-94-95
PLEXTOR JAPAN
Plextor Japan is located at:
Kyodo Building (Tokyo Ekimae), 8th Floor
4-21 Yaesu 1 chome, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 103, Japan
Phone: +81-3-3517-8061
FAX: +81-3-3517-8065
PLEXTOR USA
Plextor USA is located at:
48383 Fremont Blvd. Suite 120 Fremont, CA 94538-6509, USA
Phone: +1-510-440-2000
FAX: +1-510-651-9755
General Info: info@plextor.com
Tech Support: support@plextor.com
Plextor may be doing a couple things. First and foremost, they're making sure no unauthorized Open Source projects spring up. They have no interest in supporting the software unless they wrote it. I can understand this motivation. We all remember the Mandrake Linux release that killed some CD RW drives, and Plextor is no doubt concerned about a similar problem for them.
Plextor would have nothing to fear if they've followed the ATAPI / MMC specifications correctly. Those drives that died (I had one) implemented something like a firmware flash (or "trash") command using the same opcode as the write cache flush command (or something similar, the details in my head are fading). On a CD-ROM drive, write cache flush obviously is unnecessary, however, that doesn't mean that the opcode can be grabbed to be used for something else. The CD-ROM manufacturer was the root cause of this problem.
The Internet's nature is peer to peer - 20050301_cs_profs.pdf
Even if they explicitly tell him not to do so, he can still make public the information in the letter.
They have copyright on the letter. What he needs to do is paraphrase the letter, with attribution, and quote only the most unbelievably stupid parts.
As for the original program, they need to tell him which specificy rights of theirs he is violating. The is no such thing as generic "intellectual property". There are only copyright, patent, trade secret, trademark, and contractual rights.
Unless they have a patent on the method his program uses to perform the activity his program performs, or he's violating an NDA or using their trademark, they can't stop him from performing the activity.
Bottom line: they can't stop him from publishing his code, only theirs. Using the same methods they use doesn't violate their copyright.
sigs, as if you care.
DVD Decrypter is dead, as well, thanks to a C&D from some company as yet unnamed.
Story @ CDFreaks
These are sad times...
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
--Aristotle
I dunno about you but pretty much every piece of hardware from CD drive to network card, etc.. has had some piece of windows software which I promptly tossed in the garbage. I didn't buy the drivers [cuz I run hardware that I know works in Linux] I bought the hardware.
If the hardware didn't work out of the box with the Linux kernel the hardware has ZERO value to ME period. So if they want to push the hardware they have to provide the drivers [or specs or both].
The drivers have zero commercial value since they can only be used with that hardware. It isn't as if someone can copy it and use it for their software [unless they mimic the interface].
Again, the hobby groups of the 70s/80s/90s haven't disappeared. You don't even need to spend time on writing drivers if you just give people the specs.
Here's how you do it.
1. Make 4 cards [of whatever].
2. Email the lkml and offer them to people willing to write drivers.
3. Send them the card and the specs and tell them they can keep the card if they write a working driver under the GPL.
4. Take the driver and bundle it with said hardware [or get it merged into the kernel].
5. Profit!
All this costs you is 4 copies of your product [for a 50$ network card this is a mere 200$], postage and a copies of the interface specification.
If the hardware is worth anything the developers have incentive since they get cool hardware for essentially free. So they have incentive to participate...
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
So far we have the following on the boycott list:
1. SCO
2. Microsoft XP Professional Edition(Home is ok *wink*)
3. Java (read "The Java Trap")
4. French Products (no real valid reason)
5. Plextor (see above article)
As mentioned in this /. article, Plextor PVRs Now Support Linux
Plextor Press Release, March 8, 2005
Plextor PVRs Now Support Linux
"...Plextor is strongly committed to supporting the Open Source Software movement with free development tools that help speed the creation of next-generation Linux-based video software," said Dirk Peters, director of marketing, Plextor. "The release of this SDK was a direct response to requests from the user community for an easier way to work with Plextor ConvertX video capture devices on computers running Linux..."
"Plextor's new Linux SDK provides developers with a free GPL-based full-source driver to support all of the popular V4L2 applications," said, Tom Luax, vice president of sales, WISchip International. "The combination of low-cost MPEG4/DivX Video compression hardware and Linux OSS software is a great solution for anyone who wants to build a high-quality and low-cost personal video recorder for their PC..."
Yes, I realize this is for PVR stuff, not DVD burners, but one would think their strategy would be a bit broader than product-by-product. Maybe they think their PVR offerings need more help, while their DVD burners don't.
Your argument goes astray a bit because it only focuses on the producer and consumer without looking at the competition.
The existence of an open source application that jiggers the proprietary doohickeys on my device is potentially an useful aid to my competition. It may help them figure out may trade secrets, or to divine strategies equivalent to or better than the ones I use for my patented technologies.
It's not much help to my competitors; in practical terms it is indistinguishable from zero help. On the other hand the cost of sending a chest thumping C&D on official stationary to some private individual is practically indistinguishable from zero too.
So when in doubt, turn the crank on the lawyer box and spit out another C&D. It's cheap and risk free, and keeps your legal staff in practice for when you really need them.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
This, ladies and gentlemen is why I own a LG superdrive.
...HARDWARE... manufacturers realize that ... the better.
I put it in my AMD64 Gentoo based box, booted up and it "just worked". No drivers, no special CD burning software [outside of cdrecord and growisofs], etc...
There is no value for me in commercial CDR tools since free [and decently working ones] exist already. The sooner
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
This premise is proven false time and time again.
... well ... um you got issues.
... to me the extra 200$ is worth it since I plan to own the processor for several years the average cost compared to the time savings is huge...
Look at the x86 CPU [or even ARM]. Look at GPUs, etc..
There isn't a lot of competition in high end products because just knowing how to "jigger the doohickey" isn't enough to figure out how the doohickey works.
If your trying to sell something like a 16550 UART in 2005 as a standalone IC
Complex enough products [to which the value is greater because the ability to solve it on ones own is lower] are hard to mimic to a level of similarly demanded by the customer.
Look at Transmeta and VIA. They're both x86 processors [well sorta] that did little to dent the x86 world [of which AMD which produce awesome cpus is even a small part of].
It's not enough that you're functionality equivalent you have to be just as efficient and cost effective.
I mean, I could buy that 100$ slow as shit Transmeta processor or I could buy that 200$ very fast and power efficient AMD64 processor
So no, I don't think companies revealing the interface reveal their meaningful valuable secrets. It's just a matter of controlling how and when and where the user uses the device.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Seriously,
the best way to speak is with your wallets and ur voice. If eveyone on slashDot sends plextor an e-mail saying that what they are doing is complete BS, and we won't stand for this stuff, we will boycott their stuff and recommend others against purchasing their products they will start to listen.
If every posted article posted gets slashDotted within 5 - 10 mins of it getting posted, u can imagine the number of e-mails that can get sent telling them what u think.
It just takes about 2 mins to write a decent e-mail, do it now and speak up for the little guy.
The implementation of hardware doesn't have to have anything to do with the overall architecture it's attached to. As long as the device sits on a layer that sufficiently distances it from the nuts and bolts of the machine it's part of, there's no reason that, given the same layer in a different machine, that device can't be portable.
As an example, consider PCI devices. As long as the device doesn't have its own BIOS (Namely, video cards), there's no reason you couldn't put the same device in a Mac and in a PC. USB devices are even easier, as there's rarely code on the device that gets run by the host.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
But they get the callers anyway! And they have to tell the callers "no we don't support that," which makes their company look really bad even though it's no fault of their own.
Microsoft has that problem in spades. Something like 80-90% of the support calls they get about Windows have nothing to do with Windows, but only about third-party software that's installed. What can Microsoft do other than point people towards the right company to handle it? Nothing. But it makes them look bad and lowers their reputation.
Comment of the year
According to the cdfreaks website, the PxLinux software simply uses a series of SCSI commands to retrieve statistical data from the drive. The same principle would also apply to ATAPI.
The SCSI command set is a set of published specifications specifically intended for such purposes. It cannot reasonably be the case that Plextor, the drive manufacturer, by following these specifications, expected to restrict the use of SCSI commands for drive control.
It's possible that there is some sort of exclusive software development agreement between Plextor and Shinano Kenshi, but that agreement is not binding on other parties.
It would also be possible, in principle, to sell these drives under condition not to use them except as strictly specified, but again such an agreement would not be binding on other parties.
In no case is it reasonable to seek damages against some third party who independently develops a means to use a manufactured device as intended. An impossible situation would clearly develop for both industry and the public at large if courts were to award such damages.
[I am not a lawyer, and the foregoing does not constitute legal advice.]
Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
This, ladies and gentlemen is why I own a LG superdrive.
...HARDWARE... manufacturers realize that ... the better.
I put it in my AMD64 Gentoo based box, booted up and it "just worked". No drivers, no special CD burning software [outside of cdrecord and growisofs], etc...
There is no value for me in commercial CDR tools since free [and decently working ones] exist already. The sooner
You don't need special software to use a Plextor drive as an ordinary burner. That works fine with cdrecord using your favorite Unix-Flavor or Nero etc. using Windows.
The special thing about Plextor drives is that they give you the ability to check the quality of a burned media and therefore you would need either the Plextools (windows only), PxScan/PxView (windows with some bulk drives) or PxLinux (linux and probably other unix-flavors, since there are no Plextools for them).
Take a look
_____
[ 1151117 ] Administrative issue
You may monitor this Tracker item after you login (register an account, if you do not already have one)
Submitted By:
Takeshima - takeshima Date Submitted:
2005-02-24 07:40
Changed to Closed status by:
hemosSourceForge.net SubscriberSourceForge.net Site Admin Closed as of:
2005-03-03 07:00
Last Updated By:
nobody - Comment added Date Last Updated:
2005-06-06 10:45
Number of Comments:
6 Number of Attachments:
0
Category: (?)
Project Administration Group: (?)
Second Level Support
Assigned To: (?)
Jeffrey Bates Priority: (?)
8
Status: (?)
Closed
Summary: (?)
Administrative issue
One of your members is starting a new project, called
PXscan, PXview or PXTool Linux.
This contains unauthorised usage of Plextor-owned
intellectual property and should be refused.
If accepted, we will take legal steps.
_____
Hmm.. "Mr. Your rights online" Hemos is a wonderful censor and deleter of content, isnt he?
I guess depleting a 'business venture' of some big company is more worth saving than a free software developer. Well, either that, or MMC3 scsi commands are now considered "propertiary secrets".
Which is it Hemos?