Can Hayao Miyazaki Save Disney's Soul?

IronicGrin writes "Even hard-core House of Mouse apologists have to admit that Disney's Feature Animation division has lost its way. After a half decade of pathetic failures (Atlantis) and epic disasters (Treasure Planet), the company shut its fabled Orlando 2D animation studios last year and announced that it was jumping on the computer animation bandwagon. A big motivation for the move to CGI was, of course, the Magic Kingdom's tenuous relationship with Pixar--the source of all of Disney's recent animated hits. But Disney is overlooking a better example of just what its toon team has been doing wrong...right under its nose. Howl's Moving Castle, which opened this weekend to rapturous critical acclaim, is the third masterpiece from Japan's Studio Ghibli that Disney has released theatrically. Today's New York Times has a feature by A.O. Scott [reg required, blah blah] calling Miyazaki the "world's greatest living animated-filmmaker"; meanwhile, last Thursday, I wrote a column for SFGate.com on why Disney animation, 3D rendered or not, is doomed to irrelevance if it fails to (re)learn some basic lessons from Miyazaki and his cohorts at Ghibli. What do you think? Is Disney destined to fade to black, or can a little Ghibli flavor (mmm....Ghibli) get it back on track?"

Comments

I'll go for...

[Realistic_Dragon]

...no.

Any company that can justify stealing from the public domain with no intention to return anything to it has clearly not only drawn up a contract with satan but has also disputed the subclauses, delivered the first two goats, renegotiated paragraph three and taken the whole legal department on a field trip to hell to learn new techniques.

Re:I'll go for...

[jandrese]

Sure, all you have to do is lobby Congress to extend copyright indefinatly. If that isn't stealing from the public domain, I don't know what is.

Re:I'll go for...

[tepples]

As I understand it, it's impossible to "steal" from the public domain.

Understand this.

Animators won't save Disney...

[MosesJones]

Because Disney isn't about animation anymore, its about Parks, Hotels, T-Shirts and films signed off by the sort of people who next week will sign off the building of a 500 room "luxury" hotel.

Until Disney drives its animation division as a seperate company run by people (business people) who understand that market it will be doomed.

Re:Animators won't save Disney...

[warmcat]

Disney != Google at any time.

http://www.answers.com/topic/disney-animators-stri ke

''...The salary structure remained crazy-quilt, and the only general wage increase Disney granted in those years was self-serving: he brought a number of workers up over the forty-dollar-a-week level, at which point, under the Wagner Labor Relations Act, they ceased being entitled to time-and-a-half for overtime." Schickel says that Disney "responded gracelessly to the pressures of his increasingly difficult economic situation." Story conferences became brutal. "An animator working on Fantasia took piano lessons at his own expense" to increase his understanding of music, and when Disney found out about it, he snarled "What are you, some kind of fag?"

As the biggest and most successful animation studio, Disney was an obvious target for the Screen Cartoonists' Guild. There was a layoff which seemed to target members of the Guild selectively, and things reached a boiling point when Disney fired animator Art Babbitt, whom Disney regarded as a "troublemaker." Three days later, on May 29, 1941, the strike began. ...''

Management

[May Kasahara]

Disney has to ditch the current management in Feature Animation before it can go anywhere-- the bean counters who are more likely to follow others' trends than to create their own (remember when Disney was the animation trendsetter?). There are still a couple of good creative types at the studio (such as Chris Sanders, who directed the quirky Lilo and Stitch), but such creatives also need management who cares about and understands animation. It's no surprise that Pixar, and not Disney, is Ghibli's biggest cheerleader in the states :P

PS: Here's an excellent series of articles about what went wrong with Disney feature animation.

Re:Management

[TheoMurpse]

It's no surprise that Pixar, and not Disney, is Ghibli's biggest cheerleader in the states

I can tell you, the respect goes both ways, too. I was at the Ghibli Museum in Japan last semester on a trip with my classmates, and they had one of the areas of the museum dedicated to Pixar, with tons of sketches, figures, models, etc. It was amazing and inspiring to see two animation houses in separate countries share their art with each other.

Meh, they will just abuse this relationship

[antifoidulus]

just like they abused their relationship with Pixar. IIRC, the announcement that they were closing their 2d animation studio came right before Pixar announced that after their current contract was up they would be bolting from Disney? Why? Because that asshat Eisner assumed that Disney was invincible and Pixar would come crawling to Disney no matter how much they were abused.
I still don't think Disney learned their lesson. Eisner didn't have one creative bone in his body, all he did was bleed dry whatever he could(and took a lions share of cash for himself) while Disney's main properties languished. I suspect the same will go for this relationship.

Saving Disney's Soul

[bigtallmofo]

As a start to saving their soul, Disney would have stop trying to extend copyrights every time Mickey Mouse is about to go into the public domain.

Their unconstitutional extension of copyrights in perpetuity has made them about as evil of a corporation as I can think of today.

Solution: don't focus on blockbuster/masterpieces

[shoppa]

The problem with Disney animation in the past decade has been its blockbuster successes.

After something like "Toy Story" or "Finding Nemo" or "Lion King" (which was not originally planned to be such a big hit!), every subsequent animated film gets compared to it. Not just box office revenue, but also reviews, relevance, etc. And of course, none quite measure up. So they cut animation spending, lay off animators, and shut down animation divisions.

The problem isn't that the subsequent films weren't good films. (Well, some weren't. Others were.) But the problem is that the blockbusters were too good.

Disney just has to get back into the cycle where they produce a range of quality animation (allowing some "duds" as well as non-blockbusters to get made). In this business world, where a single non-blockbuster means you shut down the division, this is indeed hard.

Is there something wrong with me?

[Max Romantschuk]

I liked (as in didn't hate and enjoyed watching) treasure planet and atlantis as well. Is there some fundamental reason why I shouldn't have?

If Walt were still alive...

[TheCamper]

If Walt Disney were alive today, and saw what was happening to his company, he'd be rolling over in his grave!

Wait a minute...

Re:If Walt were still alive...

[eyegor]

> If Walt Disney were alive today, and saw what was happening to his company, he'd be rolling over in his grave!

How do you think they power their theme parks?

They've hooked a generator to his casket and produce mega-walts of electricity!!

Just to stay on topic, compare the last 5 or so movies from Disney studios (the ones they've done in house) with the last 5 from Ghibli. They may make more money, but they're largly soulless cookie-cutter creations.

One word why Disney is history: Totoro!

I think maybe, no.

[dangerz]

It's sad to see the state that Disney is in. My fiance is an animator, so we've had our fair number of trips down to Orlando. She knows a number of animators, most of which have been fired.

A lot of the animators have started up their own studios though. I think Firefly Studios is one? Regardless, I think the Disney that Walt had imagined is long gone and far from coming back. They need to stop pumping out sequels and start creating movies with good stories.

It doesn't matter what medium the movie is delivered in; it's the story that delivers.

Different strokes

[squarooticus]

You know what, I love lots of anime. I can do without the ninja chicks in bikinis and powered armor, but I personally consider Nausicaa to be the greatest animated film ever made, for example.

But to assume that anime would attract the same kinds of audiences as Disney's crap is ridiculous and unsupportable. No, their releases don't get especially good market support in the US from Disney, but most of the Joe Six-packs I know who've seen Princess Mononoke or Spirited Away thought they were either (a) boring as all hell, (b) pointless, or (c) impossible to understand.

Think what you want of these people, but this is the audience that is attracted to movies like Toy Story or Aladdin or any of the dozens of like films: very American, lots of "physical" humor, not especially deep. People want crap like what Disney produces; they just need to rediscover what makes good crap.

I'll content myself with being among the few Americans who enjoy anime, but I will never delude myself into thinking it might ever be mass-market fare in the US.

Re:Different strokes

[SparksMcGee]

Parent is correct in his assertion that anime is something of a "cult" following--granted, an absurdly, gigantically huge cult--but that it's still not quite mainstream enough to bring in the sort of bucks of American style animation.

More specifically, if you restrict yourself to anime, you've cut your audience--some people just won't see it or else consider it crazy, far out, and inaccessible (because, let's face it, a heck of a lot if anime is crazy, far out, and inaccessible, just in an entertaining way). And, like American animation, there is some very good anime (Cowboy Bebop, a choice I hope is non-controversial) and plenty of lame ones (I'm not going to cite any examples because that's just begging for flamewars. Think so some anime you hate and put it here). Hence, you've restricted your market by your choice of style, but anime is just that-a style. It's no guarantee of quality by any means, and Miyazaki has done some amazing work, (though let's be honest with ourselves--Mononoke and Nausicaa were more or less the same movie), but part of that may be because he hasn't whored himself out as a profit moachine, but rather as a dedicated animator, and you don't need to convert to and anime-based approach to find that, you just need a Disney willing to hire people (like those who work at, say, Pixar) who share his dedication.

And, though it's responding to flamebait, American animation isn't crap. I would go so far as to say that it's objectively better than Japanese animation. Please don't take this as an insult to anime, potential flamers, (Bebop is in fact my favoritest show ever, blah blah blah), merely an observation. The drawing in American animation tends to be less elaborate than that in anime (also somewhat less stylistically limited. It's a rare anime that doesn't include at least one of the following: drawing hair as an impossibly elaborate system of spikes sprouting of characters' heads, "expressive" eyes that take up half of people's faces, or chins likes knives). However, the animation is much better. The elaborate drawing required of anime, and in particular its frequent conversion from the still medium of manga, results in a great deal of scenes defined by minimal physical movement, or action scenes that jerk through a series of 1-second stills. Conversely, American animation, especially Disney, is always very, well, animated. Compare something like Trigun or DBZ (as examples of shows in which motion is very important) to Aladdin or Beauty and the Beast and the differences in the way motion is portrayed are just phenomenal, and there's more and smoother motion in American animation, hands down. Miyazaki's work is to some extent a partial violation of this tendency--Studio Ghibli's work at times reaches American fluidity--but the fact of the matter is that, in general, American animation is objectively better as animation. American animation tends towards the fluid and anime towards the static and elbaorate. I'm not saying either is "better," but any contention that work like Disney's represents "crap" represents the work of someone who enters a battle of wits unarmed.

Hmmm...

[gandell]

Disney has only made it worse by being unoriginal, stealing ideas, and making crappy movies.

I'm not sure that originality is Disney's biggest problem. After all, some of Disney's biggest 2D hits were based on fairy tales and fables (Beauty & The Beast, The Little Mermaid, and yes, Aladdin and The Lion King [based on Hamlet] ). No, I think the big problem is Disney can't seem to find something that audiences identify with anymore. In the 90's, that something was the production value of a cartoon with Broadway musical numbers combined with the best animation Disney had to offer, and decent story telling (Aladdin was nearly completely rewritten before it was ever released).

So far, Disney can't find that niche to milk it. Pixar has managed to find this formula without musical numbers. Can Disney do the same? So far, the answer seems to be a resounding no.

Re:Will Anime last?

[TheWormThatFlies]

The point isn't that the Studio Ghibli movies are anime. They aren't succeeding because they are made by Japan in a Japanese animation style which is currently "in". They are succeeding because they are interesting, original stories with genuine charm, rather than schmaltzy, PC-laden cheese produced by the mangling of public domain works or historical events into unrecognisability.

The most successful and enjoyable things Disney has recently produced have been Lilo & Stitch and The Emperor's New Groove. They were good because they were interesting, original stories, not because of the way they were animated. So it's hilarious that Disney has decided that 2D animation is dead, and if they switch to 3D everything will be all better. As I recall, Treasure Planet was partially done in 3D. It still sank like a lead balloon.

I know what movies I'll be getting for my hypothetical future children.

The golden egg kept out of sight

[molrak]

Howl's Moving Castle may be the third Miyazaki film Disney has distributed in the U.S., but that doesn't mean much unless you live in a major metropolitan area. Those of us stuck outside the 20 largest cities in the U.S. are doomed to wait an additional six months for these title to come out on DVD. Apparently, Miyazaki is a taste that those of us in small towns to medium-sized cities just aren't cultured enough to understand. God forbid that Disney would actually do a wide release of these masterpieces, and actually back it up with advertising.

While the DVD releases have been good, I was under the impression that it was the boys at Pizar who got Disney to distribute Miyazaki's work in the U.S. in the first place. Not that I'm bitter or anything.

Re:Solution: don't focus on blockbuster/masterpiec

[Overzeetop]

Setting aside the fact tht TS and FN were not, properly, Disney films, I don't think that the hits are the problem. Someone at Disney has given up on animation. There have been pretty good films (not ohmygodgottaseeita100times good), and the young audience doesn't really care that much about the nuances of story line.

The best example recently is the Heffalump movie. It's a little-kid movie, not the traditional epic, but its great for little kids (I'd say under 5, maybe up to 7 or 8 depending on the child). We saw it with my 2 year old in the theater. When it came out on DVD, we got it. So, if you were head of marketing, and you had a fairly big DVD release, how would you handle the marchandising? Lots of Roo and Lumpy stuffed animals, right? Midshare, get the kids playing with them. Give them something tangible to reinforce the whole Pooh franchise, right?

WRONG! Not only do most of the retail outlets have nothing in the Pooh line except - maybe - a stuffed Pooh bear that isn't tied to the release at all, but even the freakin' Disney Store online doesn't have a Lumpy. None. Nada. Zilch. Now, they did have two Lumpys in the local Disney Store . And those were left over from the shipment after the theatrical release, when the original (meager) shipment of Lumpy and Roo sold out in about a day and a half. Flew off the shelves, according to the DS worker.

No, in my opinion somebody at the top has purposely set the 2D animations up to fail.

Re:"Howl's Moving Castle" ruined with dubbing

[Masami Eiri]

Disney's contract with Ghibli requires them to not edit it. Localization in the dub is allowed, as long as the story doesn't take a big hit, but nothing else.
Rumor is, Miyazaki even sent them a genuine katana with a note to that effect attached to drive the point home.

Re:Will Anime last?

[Kaorimoch]

To take that point further, as an anime fan of many years, it wasn't the animation that attracted me to anime. It was the stories. Some of the greatest anime series were original stories with deep involving plots that weren't just fomulaic or "safe". Series like Evangelion, Ranma, Full Metal Panic, Escaflowne have well thought out characters, original stories and brilliant scripts.

My belief is Disney fails with most movies because it tries to make a movie as appealing as possible to everyone (dialogue adults and children understand, adapting known stories rather than making it original, dumbing down) and tries so hard that it messes it all up. If it tried to be a little more "out there" with their storylines, it may have some success.

Re:Miyazaki != $$

[Jack Taylor]

Miyazaki may be an ubelievably great artist, but his movies will not bring in hundreds of millions of dollars in movie sales, and billions in merchandizing

... Except in Japan. In Japan, Miyazaki's movies really do bring in this kind of revenue, and he's without question the most popular animator in Japan. Maybe the most popular film-maker in Japan. Of course there are cultural differences, but is the concept of what makes a good story really that different in Japan and America? And by the way, the article is talking about using Miyazaki's approach, not his actual films - Disney have already have already managed to procure global distribution rights to Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke, as well as the video rights to most of the others. (They've done a really poor job of the region 2 DVDs so far, as well.)

Re:"Howl's Moving Castle" ruined with dubbing

[hey!]

Rumor is, Miyazaki even sent them a genuine katana with a note to that effect attached to drive the point home.

I can't imagine what such a note would say that would drive the point home, unless it went something like this:

Dear Disney Executive,

Please accept this fine example of the Japanese swordsmith's art. Take care, for it is extremely sharp, although it is strong enough, I am told, to cut through a chain link fence or even a steel security gate as if it were so much tissue paper.

You'll be interested to hear have presented a similar gift to hundreds of our most ... enthusiastic American fans.

Coincidentally, did you know that next year's Anime Connoisseurs of America convention is to be held in Orlando? I thought you would might find that interesting. Perhaps you might consider attending and explaing to these enthusiastic yet highly reasonable people your artistic treatment of my films?

In any case, I continue to regard your organization with such warmth, my friends I confess are starting to express concern.

Wishing you all the long life and success you deserve,

-H.M.

Re:Will Anime last?

[Maestro4k]

Currently anime has a fairly large following, but if Disney were to go that route and give up on conventional cartoons or CGI, what happens if anime is just a fad. It probably is a moot point, one of the things that gives anime (and manga) its popularity is the willingness to have mature themes and stories. Mature in this case doesn't mean pornographic, but stories that deal with real issues, emotions, struggles, etc. It's not uncommon to see titles targeted at young kids that deal with very serious issues (rape, bullying, love (and not puppy love either), even "alternate" relationships show up fairly frequently, especially if it's a CLAMP work.) Can you see Disney _ever_ being willing to explore a mature theme in a "cartoon" they make? They've walled themselves off into the G rating only corner and seem to like it there. That's not to say a G rated animation has to suck, just that Disney seems to think it can't have any mature themes period. Slapstick and musical numbers will save the day! (Or at least that seems to be what they think.)

Think about it, Pixar's films are great, they're extremely kid friendly but they _DO_ explore mature themes as well. The characters evolve, they learn new lessons, they're _NOT_ perfect. Some of the things in them will completely go over kids heads, but give the adults a good chuckle. Animation doesn't have to be watered down crap to be a good kid's movie. Disney used to know this (hell look at Bambi alone, can you imagine Disney of today doing a show where the main character's mother is killed shortly into it?) but they seem to have forgotten it completely. It's not just Disney doing away with their animation studio, it seems Disney has lost it's heart and soul.

It may help Disney pull through in the short term, but will it be a long term solution for the lack of good cartoons from Disney? I wonder how many years anime has left?

In general or the stuff that gets yanked up to target (and market) directly to kids? (e.g. Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc.) In general I'd say the anime market will continue to grow, although it may slow some. There's a couple of generations of kids growing up now that know that the shows they love so much come from Japan and they'll be getting into anime and manga more heavily as they get older. The diversity of titles in anime alone can compete with Hollywood's offerings, so there's something for every taste.

While some in the business (*cough*AVD*cough*) like to proclaim doom and gloom at every chance they get (in particular about fansubbers), the market isn't showing any signs of falling apart. The main issues now are ones of success. Retailers are less willing to stock titles that don't start selling well right away. I personally wonder how big an issues that is though because more of the places that actually stock a decent amount of anime are more speciality stores, and they're going to understand that some titles pick up sales slowly.

Manga in particular is growing amazingly. Viz's Shonen Jump has done so well that they're launching a sister magazine called Shojo Beat targeted at girls. Shonen Jump graphic novels sell amazingly well (the $7.95 price point can't hurt). Even Del Ray has gotten into the business, starting out with some very high profile titles (Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle, xxxHolic, both by CLAMP) and slowly expanding out. Their titles cost more than the industry standard $9.99 (at $10.99), but they also come with all the extras from the Japanese release (translated to boot), translation notes and tend to be a bit thicker in my experience.

Anime in and of itself is not just a fad, it's been growing for many years. Early fans used to watch whatever they could get, even if it was some Nth generation VHS copy of a show Raw (no subs) that you could barely watch. Thanks to fans, especially ones dedicated enough to do fansubs, and those who distributed them, the market continued to grow. In the last 5-6 years it's grown dramatically

Re:Will Anime last?

[ghostlibrary]

Problem is, reviewers like Stephen Hunter at the Washington Post just "simply do not get it" (his own words: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic le/2005/06/09/AR2005060901951.html) and trash them in reviews. Seriously, he starts out by saying he's the wrong person to review it, then proceeds to give a negative review. What ever happened to "I don't get it, so I recuse myself", I'll never know.

Anyway, when I try to loan Miyazaki movies to my sister's kids, they never get to watching them-- because they haven't heard of them and "they're different". So a lack of marketing and a lack of a brand really make it suffer.

Too many parents rely on brand (e.g. Disney, Nickleodeon, HBO) as a filter for what they'll let their kids see. Too many kids only want to watch the branded stuff their peers mention.

It reminds me of a John Lasseter (sp?) interview about Pixar, when an executive asked (for Toy Story), "okay, what are the 8 songs?" The idea of doing a movie (to compete with Disney, no less) that didn't follow The Formula and include the marketable songs was considered folly.

So Miyazaki-type movies have an uphill battle because "they're different" and they lack the marketing bit to appeal to 'the consumer masses'.

Re:Will Anime last?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up...

This is exactly right. Ghibli movies are not good because they are anime. They are good in their own right and they just happen, as animation produced in Japan, to fall under the label of "anime".

Don't get me wrong. I watch a fair amount of anime. In fact, I'd even go so far to label myself an anime fan. But the simple fact is that 95% of the anime that gets produced is dreadful. And, believe me, I'm including an awful lot of the popular stuff in that assessment. For every Evangelion, Noir, Excel Saga or Mononoke-hime, there's at least a dozen formulaic "big robots hitting each other" shows, Pokemon clones, Dragonball clones and insanely-insulting-to-the-intelligence precisely-pitched-at-the-desperate-fanboy-market "Love Hina" style harem shows. Oh, and most of it *is* for kids.

In short, anime is like pretty much any other genre. A few titles which really stand out in the mind and endure, set against a sea of tripe. Not so different from the broader TV and cinema output of the US or the UK, really.

Right now, Miyazaki is one of the most talented people making "family" movies. In fact, Studio Ghibli and Pixar are basically the only people in the world making animation that's entertaining for both children and adults. That's the real story here.

As for Disney's woes, its animation division desperately needs to break out of its tired formula for mass producing identikit movies. Can we PLEASE get lead characters who aren't wisecracking late-teens-early-twentysomethings. In fact, while I'm on that particular rant, I'll address it to the anime industry (excluding Ghibli and one or two others) as well. How about some characters who actually fall outside the 16-21 age range for once? Please? Oh, and Square-Enix, how about letting me have an FFXI avatar who looks as though he needs to shave more than once a week.

Ok, just got completely sidetracked and can't even remember where I started. I'll shut up now.

Re:Will Anime last?

[TomHandy]

I don't really understand this attitude, but it strikes me sort of like the people who don't like to refer to certain high quality comic books as "comic books".

"anime" simply means Japanese animation. I have no idea why someone would have the attitude that Miyazaki (and Studio Ghibli films in general) couldn't appropriately be called anime. What does it mean to be "more than just anime"? Does that mean that anime, as a baseline definition, only refers to Japanese animation that is just mediocre to average, and that the excellent Japanese animation should be referred to using some other term? Is this some hang-up that non-Japanese have about the use of the term anime (because, of course, in Japan, ANY animation, including non-Japanese animation, is anime, but that's a different issue). Heck, it's like saying that Miyazaki's Nausicaa manga shouldn't be called manga, because it's "more than manga".

I think I understand your point, that Miyazaki's stuff shouldn't necessarily be lumped in with some of the generic TV anime out there, but I think that point can be made without taking this attitude that "anime" isn't an appropriate word to describe what Miyazaki's films are.

Re: Pixar Exhibition

[ll1234]

A small feature on the Pixar Exhibition at the Studio Ghibli Museum: http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/museum/pixar/