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U.S. Offers Glimpse at Manhattan Project Facility
jonerik writes "According to this article from the Associated Press, the US government is this week permitting the public a rare glimpse of its high-security Y-12 nuclear weapons plant as part of Oak Ridge, Tennessee's annual Secret City Festival, which is being held this coming weekend. Although the plant is still associated with ongoing nuclear weapons work, members of the public will be permitted to see parts of the facility associated with its work on the Manhattan Project's 'Little Boy' bomb, which was dropped on the Japanese city of Hiroshima on August 6th, 1945. The facility produced the uranium-235 which was used in the device using 1,152 massive calutrons across nine separate buildings in 1944 and 1945. 'Don't you know the people in Knoxville wondered what in the world was going on out here,' Department of Energy guide Ray Smith said on Monday. 'All this material was coming in, truckload after truckload, and nothing ever left.'"
I thought they'd been doing tours round this plant for many years.
A few years ago I went on a 'bizzare places' tour round the states and this was one of the places on the agenda.
Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to go on the tour round Y-12, but they were doing daily trips from the science & technology museum in nearby oakridge.
The Japanese offered to surrender...
What?
Japanese soldiers out of supplies and hope for victory often ran off nearby cliffs and even, in some cases, resorted to cannibalism rather than surrender.
For the Japanese, submitting in battle was the worst humiliation possible. Only the realistic prospect of utter annihilation would (and did) convince them to surrender.
What a waste of human life.
Agreed. Unfortunately, war often confronts us with difficult situations that require less than ideal actions.
But since they weren't American, I guess it doesn't count, right? Kinda like all those Iraqis.
Which Iraqis? The ones Saddam killed on a regular basis? Funny how they seem to be forgotten in all of the vitriolic grandstanding from the far left.
Is it just me or does anyone else find it ironic that the faction which champions ideals of tolerance and a sophisticated worldview seems to have this notion that the United States holds a monopoly on the evil of the world? That *if only* the US didn't exist, some magical utopia would appear? It almost makes the evangelical far right look intelligent--which is a difficult task indeed.
-Grym
Pu is not so great fuel. To make Mixed Oxide Fuel, from free separated Pu and free DU or natural U actualy costs more than mining, extracting and enriching Uranium to the 5% level (or whatever is used in the plant) . Apart from hazzards of Pu, the economy is not there with MOX.
Pu is a toxic waste from energy production perspective and should be burried, not re-made into nuclear fuel.
I doubt that we will ever figure out - and I suspect that even if we did figure out we couldn't do much about it
History Channel's Modern Marvels: The Manhattan Project
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
(I grew up in Oak Ridge and can vouch that this is actually a very on-topic post). For those not in the know, Big Ed's Pizza is probably the biggest attraction in Oak Ridge outside of the Oak Ridge National Labs and Y-12/K-25 complexes. Many of my friends have been walking around various cities around the world while wearing a Big Ed's t-shirt and had people come up to them asking if they were from Oak Ridge and then relating their own stories of eating at Big Ed's. I was driving through Alabama a few years ago and met someone who was in the Marines with Big Ed. (Big Ed was, quite appropriately, a World War II veteran. He was also quite large of heart, supporting the local Boys' and Girls' Club, various clubs at Oak Ridge High School, and providing employment for many teenagers in Oak Ridge.) Big Ed's Pizza is indeed still there. Big Ed himself, unfortunately, is not (he passed away in 1998). But there are still massive crowds there most of the time, especially after football games at Blankenship Field. I usually have dinner or lunch there with some of my high school friends when I'm in town.
It's a UN thing. Only the founding members of the UN (US, Russia, France, China, UK) are permitted to develop nukes, ostensibly for peacekeeping purposes.
I think you meant to say permanent members of the Security Council...
What are you listening to? (http://megamanic.blogetery.com/)
I believe that there are other tours in other sections that you can go to. Although, things may have changed since 2001. They've really beefed up security since then. There's also the American Museum of Science and Energy that out-of-towners sometimes find interesting.
However, I can tell you that Oak Ridge is a wonderful city. Those of us who grew up there find it a little bit boring, but in all honesty, I miss it a whole lot.
If you end up visiting, I'd suggest stopping at Big Ed's for dinner. And if you like BBQ, check out Buddy's BBQ anywhere in Tennessee. It's insulting what passes for barbecue out here in California.
"You've missed a word there, "American" lives. It killed around 140 thousand Japanese civilian lives."
You do realize that Japan at that point was training schoolgirls how to use spears, with the intent on using them against a perceived US landing, correct? Well, at least the ones that hadn't already thrown themselves off a cliff to avoid the ravages of the filthy gaijin invaders...
The Japanese military was more than willing to continue a conventional war to the last Japanese civillian. The atomic bombs saved Japanese lives through a show of force that left no room for an "honorable" death in defending a lost cause. There was no hope for forcing the US into at phyrric victory.
I challenge this. Who was it exactly out of the 489,540 Americans killed in WW1 that died protecting your freedom of speech, and expression of religion?
WW1 was a war fought between empires, that was the beginning of the end of imperialism, it had nothing to do with fighting for freedom, or fighting against oppression.
The US made a lot of money in the first 2 years of the war selling arms and goods to both sides.
Don't get me wrong, WW1 is a very serious historical event, that I would equate with the death of the notion of a 'noble war' (perhaps the 1914 Christmas armstice is the last instance of this) . I have had 95 year old french women come up and thank me just for being Australian and for my ancestors defending their village of Villers-Bretonneux at a cost of 10,000 Australian lives, something that I found quite intense. But I cringe at revisionist history of our intent in WW1. Of course, laud mateship, comraderie, sacrifice and bravery, but do not believe for a second that the allies were the 'just' party in WW1, or that it was a war that defended our essential freedoms. It was a war of attrition, pitting empire against empire, and whilst the minds and bodies of many men were sacrificed for this cause, it was not in the name of liberty.
M.
Out of interest, the russian casualties in WW1 were 775,400, and they only fought for 3 years. In WW2 the numbers are even more ridiculous. Thus there are lots of people from "OTHER countries" who died for your freedom too.
M.
I really hope that you like Oak Ridge. Since you have small kids, this should be of importance to you: From first-hand experience I can tell you that the Oak Ridge school system is truly outstanding, from elementary school through high school. Taxes are high in Oak Ridge so that we can maintain this. When I was in high school, most of my friends and I took nothing but AP classes, and while a "3" is considered passing, most people who got 3's would hide out of shame. We do quite well in everything from Science Olympiad and Science Bowl to test scores to athletics (we have a very good football team, and good soccer/basketball/baseball/tennis/etc). Not bad for a public school system. I'm constantly amazed by how much more prepared I was for college than my fellow undergrads (I went to Rice U. It was rather nice to start out as a second semester sophomore). Yes, your kids should do quite well if they take advantage of the opportunities that the Oak Ridge school system gives them. As for environmental issues, there really isn't that much to worry about. All three government facilities are in separate valleys from the rest of the city, which was initially so that if one facility had a catastrophe, the other two could keep running. This helps things now by concentrating pollutants into smaller areas that are easy to clean up. Just don't plan on cooking your catch when you go fishing. Otherwise you'll be just fine. Besides, I can only think of one neighborhood that is within a mile of Y-12. ORNL and K-25 are much farther away from the residentail areas. Another good thing about Oak Ridge is that you get to take advantage of cheap TVA electricity. Bull Run Steam Plant (a coal power plant) is a model of efficiency and environmental friendliness. You also have Knoxville, which is much larger than Oak Ridge, and the University of Tennessee right next door, within about a 30-45min drive. And I am naturally a big fan of Tennessee football (meaning college football primarily), hiking in the mountains, swimming in and skiing on the lakes, rafting on the Ocoee, and eating really good barbecue. I'm sure that the people you'll be working with at ORNL will be more than happy to answer any questions you have about moving, but I'd be happy to help out too. Incidentally, what division will you be working in at ORNL?
What the *FUCK* is wrong with you? Do you realize that over 100,000 people instantly died from those bombs? Not to mention that thousands more that died really, really horrible deaths as a result of radiation poisoning.
I'm sorry if this is a flame. It's just that those kinds of statements basically kill whatever shred of hope I had left in humanity.
Oh, and to stave off the "We *did* it for the sake of humanity" comments, we very well may have. But it we did it at the cost of humanity, and I'm not just referring to those lives lost in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Check into Operation Olympic vs. Ketsu-go, the invasion of Japan vs. the Japanese defense. Casualties would have been HUGE, in the hundreds of thousands, on the Allied side alone.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
- This may bell be just a PR campaign to make the place look better. Lots of things you won't hear on the tour:
- The calutrons were basically a FAILURE-- they only put out about 10% of the expected U235-- the rest they smeared all over the place, and not in the collection bucket. Once the gas diffusion plant got running the calutrons were relegated to secondary status. Being extremely expensive and inefficient to boot, they were shut down ASAP after the war.
- They were built mostly due to Lawrence's reputation in building the cyclotron, not on any technical merit.
- Ask about when the building had most of the world's mercury flowing through its pipes. And how much got lost. A DOE report says: "A 1983 study by USDOE estimates that 733,000 pounds of elemental mercury were released to the environment in the 1950s and 1960s around the Y-12 Plant. Most of the contamination around Y-12 is confined to the upper 10 feet of soils and fill. Additional studies revealed that some 170,000 pounds of mercury are contained in the sediments and floodplain of about a 15-mile length of East Fork Poplar Creek (EFPC), which has its headwaters at Y-12, and that some 500 pounds of mercury annually leave this watershed." ( i.e.: don't smoke the grass)
- Ask about the nearby sites where they dumped tons of radioactive waste right into the creeks and hollers.
Just MHO but his would be one of the LAST places on Earth I'd care to visit.I also grew up in a community surrounding Oak Ridge. The government facilities there provided many jobs for my grandfather and his generation after they returned from WW2. These jobs had an extreme impact upon the surrounding communities in that they provided the very poor families in East TN jobs and the ability to escape poverty and move up to middle class status. This opportunity has lasted even until now. My grandfather and others like him died from exposure to the materials produced in Oak Ridge. The government is now providing families of those men and women restitution for their services. My wife's family alone recieved well over $200k from the government. Not only did the work that went on in Oak Ridge put an end to the greatest war ever waged, it also gave many families a chance for survival. Now ORNL is working on many things, even Glassy Steel! http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v38_1_05/artic le17.shtml
What's in a name?
Whatever. You're a moron if you think they don't use 'napalm'.
Results are 'remarkably similar' to using napalm
By James W. Crawley
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
August 5, 2003
American jets killed Iraqi troops with firebombs - similar to the controversial napalm used in the Vietnam War - in March and April as Marines battled toward Baghdad.
[...]
Mark 77 Firebomb
"We napalmed both those (bridge) approaches," said Col. Randolph Alles in a recent interview. He commanded Marine Air Group 11, based at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station, during the war. "Unfortunately, there were people there because you could see them in the (cockpit) video.
Also, last I heard ORNL is still run by a combo of The University of Tennessee and Battel (sp?) so your kids will likely qualify for reduced tuition at UT when they get to college age. UT's an excellent school. :) Oh yeah, on that vein, hope you like Orange, you'll see a lot of it, everywhere. The UT fans here are quite, ahh, intense. :)
I'm glad to hear your vote of confidence about the city! Though I'm a bit leery of living that close to Y-12. They haven't always been the best environmental neighbors. While we like to joke about people from Oak Ridge glowing in the dark it's really not a problem. I grew up (and still live) in a town 30 minutes away. I've got friend in Oak Ridge, some who work for ORNL & Y12. There's really no danger. I even did a summer fellowship at ORNL, while I had to wear a radiation monitor I was never exposed to any. Some things you'll have to watch out for (you'll learn this from your coworkers) are the animals on the ORNL reserve. They can get into contaminated areas, so make sure you don't hit them. That could contaminate your car, but is unlikely to harm you, just cause some hassle.Israel is not a signatory of NNPT. For that matter, neither are India or Pakistan. I do not know where the GP got that weird idea that it is a UN thing, because it is not. Countries may choose to sign or not freely - well, unless they happen to be declared "rogue states" by the US, in which case any and all treaties are just ink on the paper anyway.
Just because I'm blessed and cursed with a pedantic bent and a masochistic one, respectively, I'm going to futilely attempt to enlighten you, Anonymous Coward.
I direct your attention to Operation Downfall, the proposed plan for the United States' invasion of Japan. The estimated casualties for United States forces alone were estimated to be nearly one million men to take the island.
When you consider at the time that Japanese soldiers and even civilians who had been forced to retreat to caves refused to surrender, fought to the death, and had to be flame-throwered in the caves because they would have done everything in their power to kill American Soldiers, combined with the fact that virtually everyone in Japan who would have been able to wield any form of weapon would have made resistance, you are looking at not only the deaths of 1 Million US Service personnel, but practically the total elimination of the Japanese Population.
So, in short, yes, I think 100,000 lives were worth it. I happen to like Japan, and am glad that we dropped the bombs on them, because if we hadn't I doubt very much Japan would be around today.
Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
man: no entry for woman in the manual.
"Qua!?"
As a Canadian, and a retired Canadian soldier at that, thanks for noticing our contribution at Normandy - and I say that without irony; the fact that Canada had a Normandy beach all to itself, and was in fact the only country to reach its D-Day objectives, is sadly often overlooked.
:) But please don't assume we're an American puppet state, militarily - we are not.
But your comment "I don't think Canada would have had that level of involvement without US cooperation" is well off the mark.
Historically, Canadians don't give a fig about what the US does when it comes to going to war. We are our own independant country, and we make our own decisions.
We joined WW1 and WW2 within a couple of days of both wars starting, and in both cases Canadians were busy fighting and dying well in advance of any American involvement.
Even in the case of war material Canadians have gone it their own if they had to. In WW1 we brought the Canadian made Ross rifle (sadly, a steaming hunk of shit and a political boondoggle) and we started WW2 with our own tank, the Ram (design elements of which eventually made it into the vastly superior Sherman) When US material, usually much cheaper to obtain rather than building it ourselves, became availble we'd use it, but having access to US equipment was never a precondition to Canada going to war.
In fact, it's interesting to see which wars Canada has chose to get involved in, and which ones it chose to avoid. I think we have a pretty good batting average when it comes to finding the just ones:
WW1, WW2, Korea, Gulf War 1, and Afganistan we all get into immediately. Vietnam and Gulf War 2 we purposely pass on.
And then there's all those UN peacekeeping missions: Cyprus, the Golan Heights, Bosnia, Somalia, Rwanda, Haiti....
Anyway, thanks for noticing our proud military heritage. We think we've done OK over the years.
DG
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