Chemistry is chemistry, regardles of what planet you are on. Just like the laws of physics are the same regardless of where you are in the universe. We know the conditions on Mars, thus we know what sort of chemical reactions are possible and which are not. Similarly, we know the conditions on Jupiter well enough to be able to predict what sort of chemistry will be going on there. Based on scientific reasoning, it's pretty safe to assume that if water isn't necessary, then it would certainly make things much easier for life.
Are there molecules we haven't seen before? Quite probably. By the way, the distinction between compounds, gases, and molecules is insignificant here. Are there elements that we haven't seen before? Possibly. But based on universal physical law, we know how they will behave. Besides, atoms of such elements will be rare enough and unstable enough that they wouldn't make a difference for life.
So, I'm wondering, what are you thinking? Silicon based life forms? Not likely, since silicon is much more limited in the types of bonds it can make in comparison to carbon. Nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, boron, and aluminum fail as a basic element for life for the same reasons. Outside of that region of the periodic table, you have no hope at all of creating a living entity (you might *use* those elements for *some* things, but none can work in place of carbon).
Or perhaps you're thinking of replacing water with ammonia. Or perhaps you've read some Arthur C. Clarke and are thinking of using H2S instead of H2O. These are indeed possibilities but are *much less likely* because they are much less efficient than using good old water.
But you seem to be thinking of more exotic things. Perhaps a superintelligent shade of the color blue?
But what it boils down to is that the "rules of basic chemistry" that we've discovered here on Earth most definitely apply universally, because they're based on the universal laws of physics.
I would highly suggest that you take some chemistry classes before trying to make your argument. Find a chemistry teacher and see what he or she thinks of your assertion that "life on Mars has no business following the 'rules of basic chemistry' on Earth.
However, the same (not entirely labor-free) can be said of all types of power plants, whether you're talking about solar, wind, tidal, coal, oil, fission, etc. You have to fix stuff occasionally, you have people monitoring power loads and whatever else needs monitoring, you have a janiotorial staff that cleans up everything, etc.
According to the O'Reilly page for the book, the 4th Edition it has a publication date of July 05. The 3rd Edition was published in July 01. So, I'd say it'll be at least a couple of years before a 5th Edition comes out. If you can hold onto that borrowed copy for that long, then waiting would make more sense. But my guess is that whoever you borrowed it from will want it back before the 5th Edition is published.
There's a big difference between a revolutionary breakthrough that can lead to a cure and the cure itself. The media generally doesn't understand this difference, or doesn't care to make the distinction. Even when you nail down what chemicals are important for treating a given disease there is still much work to be done. Perhaps the potential drug that you've developed has bad interactions (side effects) in other parts of the body, so you need to modify the molecule slightly so that it doesn't have those interactions but is still effective. For instance, it'd be a shame if your cure for cancer caused heart attacks in 50% of patients. Modifying the drug can take several years, even decades.
Also, don't forget about clinical trials. Once you have something that looks like it might be a cure there are still questions like: "What dosage is needed?", "Over what period of time does the drug need to be administered?", etc. These aren't questions that are answered in weeks or months, but in years. And until these questions are answered, you'll only find these drugs as experimental treatments and clinical trials, not as marketed drugs.
Science is a slow process, and when you're talking about putting foreign chemicals into the body to cause major changes, it pays to be thorough in your testing. And yes, there are always false leads in science. Many things that look good initially end up not working, sometimes due to side effects, sometimes because they just can't be made to work on a large scale, or perhaps because it simply isn't cost effective. And by cost effective I'm saying that there are issues of breaking even, not that the drug won't bring in millions. The pharmaceutical industry, just like any other industry, has to obey the laws of economics.
Rest assured, assuming that a cure is possible, we will have cures for most cancers and AIDS within the next few decades, at the latest. I know that saying "be patient" isn't very helpful for someone with cancer or AIDS, but lots of people are working very hard to beat these diseases.
Actually, I'm the other way around. Opera starts when my computer turns on, and it stays running until I shut down my computer. BitTorrent, however, is simply turned on when I need it and then left on until the computer is turned off. And while I use Opera daily, I only use BitTorrent when downloading a new Linux distro.
Personally, I doubt that adding a BT client to Opera will adversely impact things on my end, and it should help other people out by keeping my BT client open longer. And, going with your assumption that the BT client would stay open after the browser is closed (something I doubt), I'd also like to think that most Opera users are intelligent enough to understand what's going on. Opera seems to be pretty good about letting you tell it what to run and when to run it, so you could probably control the behavior of the BT client if you don't like the default behavior.
I made a couple of attempts with DosBox for some games without much success. ScummVM worked pretty well for some games that I had the game files for. But ScummVM can't handle non-LucasArts games. And neither do anything to help in actually getting the game files back on my computer. The games that I was able to play are ones that I've been pushing from one computer to another for years.
What I'd really like is to have LucasArts, Sierra, and Origin (or whoever owns the rights now) each put all of the old games onto DVDs and set it up so that I don't have to go through 3rd-party emulators.
I heartily agree. I'd like to go back and play the old LucasArts games like Monkey Island, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, and Day of the Tentacle. I need to put together an old 486/DOS box so that I can load up my old Sierra (Space/King's Quest) and Origin (Wing Commander, Ultima) games. I keep saying it: Computer game companies could make a ton of money by simply updating their old classics to play easily on new computers. I don't even really care about updated graphics. I know that there are things like ScummVM that allow you to play some games and fix up the graphics a bit, but it requires the original disks, which I have but cannot use (no 5.25"/3.5" floppy drives). I, for one, would pay a lot of money to get copies of my old games that Just Work on my newer machines.
About 14 years ago my family hosted two Japanese college students. This was part of an exchange program between Oak Ridge and a town in Japan. When we asked the students about their knowledge of World War II, they were completely unaware that there had been a war, let alone a war in which the US had used atomic bombs on Japan. I've always found it frightening that such a major event in history is (or at least was) essentially ignored by the Japanese educational system.
You should watch the bonus material on the Star Wars DVD box set. At some point someone comments that in the Old Republic (prequels), you are looking at true Jedi Masters, with millennia of cumulative sword/lightsaber skills. The Jedi are at the height of their power and thus use all of the skills that they have to acomplish their goals.
Constrast that with the original trilogy where you have two remaining Jedi Masters and a farmboy from the middle of nowhere. Luke only has two people to learn swordfighting from, and Yoda never uses a lightsaber because he has no need. Doubtless, Obi Wan would have taught Luke more, had he lived longer, but the older Obi-Wan had learned many hard lessons, one of which is that you need not always defeat your enemies through violence.
I'm not saying that the desire to use eye-candy and the ease of putting it in there didn't have its part, but I choose to believe that there is a little bit more to it than that.
Keep in mind that Google is not the authority on environmental cleanup. Also keep in mind that you're dealing with the Department of Energy, which is a very secretive organization, often for a variety of good reasons. But even with their natural tendency not to disclose information, there have been many meetings in Oak Ridge for the public to come and ask questions about the cleanup and get straight answers.
I agree with you about the tendencies of big organizations and the government to downplay and cover up issues, but this is a situation where coverup and downplay was impossible, and as a result the government is now dealing with the issue. The cleanup will take a long time and lots of money, but the work is being done. I've seen some of it with my own eyes and talked to people working on it.
You might be right in that BS generally surrounds issues like these. However, in Oak Ridge things have moved past the BS stage and are now into the getting shit done stage. I think you're allowing your expectations, your distrust of big organizations and the government, and your ignorance of this particular situation (and I don't mean this in a derogatory way) lead you to an incorrect conclusion. General trends cannot be applied to all situations.
Again, I would suggest that you should talk to people involved in the cleanup projects rather than relying on Google before you draw your conclusions. I think that you are trying to come to a conclusion with insufficient information.
Yeah, I heartily agree. I've always pictured the exchange kind of like this:
Oak Ridge: "Hello, is this the US Treasury? We need all of your silver for the war effort." Treasury: "Excuse me? All of the silver?" Oak Ridge: "Yes, if you'd kindly ship it to this little blank spot on the map in the middle of nowhere in Tennessee." Treasury: "......... and who exactly are you?" Oak Ridge: "I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. No. Seriously. Ship the silver ASAP, if you don't mind."
Needless to say, this probably isn't what happened, but the story of the Manhattan Project is full of these little amazing details. 15ktons of silver... think of all of the silverware that that would make!
Most of the mercury is isolated in one place and there is a 24 hour reclaimation process going on to get it back out of the soil (Yes, there are ways to do so. I don't know the details, but have seen the equipment.) The contaminated watersheds are indeed roped off, with cleanup techniques being applied. People know what lakes and rivers are okay for fishing, swimming, etc. The problem is not trivial, but does not pose a significant danger to the public. After all, there are 30000 people living in Oak Ridge with thousands more in surrounding areas. It's not as if the whole city is radioactive and full of mercury with no one doing anything about it; the contamination is isolated into specific areas with active cleanup operations going on. I would suggest checking out this site before crying "BS!". Perhaps fire off some emails asking for details about the cleanup process.
Also, I never used the war as an excuse. I simply stated that foolish things were done during the Manhattan Project, which didn't just disappear as soon as the war was over. The Manhattan Project simply redirected partially into new directions. Were stupid things done in the 50's too? Sure. Are things being done to clean up Oak Ridge? YES! Just because you don't know of methods to get mercury out of soil doesn't mean that there aren't any. I may not know the details, but I know people that have worked on the problem. And let me reiterate that the contaminants that wash into the creek have a ways to go before reaching water that can be used by the public. Are the toxins in that first lake used by the public higher than normal? Yes, but it's not as if no one has told the residents how to safely deal with it. Would you rather nothing be done about the contamination?
This is what it boils down to: (1) The contamination is there, whatever the cause -- stupidity, ignorance, lack of foresight. (2) The danger to the public is minimal, especially if they stay away from the contaminated areas, which they should do anyway since going to those areas would constitute federal trespassing. (3) Cleanup of the contaminated areas is ongoing. In fact while the cleanup proceeds, ORNL is using the unique opportunity of actually having contaminated sites to develop new techniques. This is much better than trying to develop a technique in theory with nothing to test it on until there actually is a problem.
None of this has anything to do with the historical importance of Oak Ridge. For better or worse, it is undeniable that the operations that went on in Oak Ridge had a great impact on the world at large. Why should some mistakes in the past and a few hot zones (that you won't be allowed near) prevent you from visiting an important historical site and a very fine town? I can assure you that visiting the Y-12 plant will not shorten your lifespan. It will not make you complicit in some evil government coverup. What it will do is educate you on what happened in the past and what is going on now. Hopefully it will instill some national pride in you, as well. Despite its mistakes, and regardless of your views on whether the atomic bombs should have been used, I fail to see how anyone can deny the amazing acomplishment that was the Manhattan Project. Armed with nothing but a theory and some empty farmland, we produced a monumental (if terrible) achievement in less than a decade. The pace at which Oak Ridge itself was built has probably never been equalled.
So, I beg of you, talk to some people involved in the Oak Ridge cleanup, some of the researchers who have taken technology that was used to make a bomb and have turned it into something that makes drugs that may oneday save your life, or some of the residents of Oak Ridge (of which I am one). Do this before you start crying "Evil!", "BS!", "PR COVERUP!". In fact, go on the tours of Y-12, X-10, and K-25. Ask questions. If the answers aren't to your liking, do some investigation and come back and report back to us.
Good point. The enrichment methods used during the Manhattan Project required rediculous amounts of resources. During tours you often hear terms like "Most of the free world's mercury and silver" for the cyclotrons and "10% of the electricity in the US" for the gasseous diffusion plant. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but it's indicative of the resources needed. Enriching uranium is an extremely non-trivial thing, especially if using the antiquated techniques of the Manhattan Project.
All of the contaminated and radioactive areas are well contained, monitored, and in the process of cleanup. The cleanup itself has led to many new technologies for environmental cleanup in other parts of the world, so it is actually having a positive impact now. None of the contamination affects the drinking water in Oak Ridge. Nor is any of it airborne.
A lot of foolish things were done back during the Manhattan Project, but they also knew a lot less. We're paying for those mistakes, but given the new techniques and technologies we've gained, I'd say it's a good tradeoff.
Basically, if you are smart and stay out of areas that are marked off-limits, there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Basically, you're allowing FUD to prevent you from visiting a nice town and a very important and extremely interesting historical site.
About 15 years ago my family (in Oak Ridge) hosted two Japanese college students. There was something that we were shocked to learn: They had no clue about the significance of Oak Ridge hosting Japanese exchange students! As far as they knew, there had never been a war between the US and Japan, and there certainly hadn't been any atomic bombs used. When we asked them about things, they asked us whether Japan had been our allies in WWII.
Perhaps the students we hosted simply hadn't payed attention in history class, but it appears that at that point the Japanese education system was simply ignoring that WWII had happend, and that is a frightening prospect. We hosted another student a few years later that actually knew about the war, but it frightens me that Japan would try to erase that part of history, even though they appear to not be doing that anymore. It truly makes me wonder what would have happened had the war not been ended so conclusively.
Incidentally, Buddy's Bar-B-Q has truly amazing barbecue (as I've mentioned a few other places). And I've had it catered on several occasions at ORNL (not Y-12).
I really hope that you like Oak Ridge. Since you have small kids, this should be of importance to you: From first-hand experience I can tell you that the Oak Ridge school system is truly outstanding, from elementary school through high school. Taxes are high in Oak Ridge so that we can maintain this. When I was in high school, most of my friends and I took nothing but AP classes, and while a "3" is considered passing, most people who got 3's would hide out of shame. We do quite well in everything from Science Olympiad and Science Bowl to test scores to athletics (we have a very good football team, and good soccer/basketball/baseball/tennis/etc). Not bad for a public school system. I'm constantly amazed by how much more prepared I was for college than my fellow undergrads (I went to Rice U. It was rather nice to start out as a second semester sophomore). Yes, your kids should do quite well if they take advantage of the opportunities that the Oak Ridge school system gives them.
As for environmental issues, there really isn't that much to worry about. All three government facilities are in separate valleys from the rest of the city, which was initially so that if one facility had a catastrophe, the other two could keep running. This helps things now by concentrating pollutants into smaller areas that are easy to clean up. Just don't plan on cooking your catch when you go fishing. Otherwise you'll be just fine. Besides, I can only think of one neighborhood that is within a mile of Y-12. ORNL and K-25 are much farther away from the residentail areas.
Another good thing about Oak Ridge is that you get to take advantage of cheap TVA electricity. Bull Run Steam Plant (a coal power plant) is a model of efficiency and environmental friendliness. You also have Knoxville, which is much larger than Oak Ridge, and the University of Tennessee right next door, within about a 30-45min drive. And I am naturally a big fan of Tennessee football (meaning college football primarily), hiking in the mountains, swimming in and skiing on the lakes, rafting on the Ocoee, and eating really good barbecue.
I'm sure that the people you'll be working with at ORNL will be more than happy to answer any questions you have about moving, but I'd be happy to help out too. Incidentally, what division will you be working in at ORNL?
This is the first I've ever heard of tours being given at Y-12, since it is still operational. However, there are (or at least were) tours of various parts of X-10 (aka the Oak Ridge National Laboratory or ORNL) and K-25 (gasseous diffusion plant). However, having worked at Y-12 for a couple summers as an undergrad, I did have a chance to see some of the sights at Y-12, and can say that it's an interesting place in many ways.
Incedentally, the museum is the American Museum of Science and Energy. Also, X-10, Y-12, and K-25 (the three plants) are all inside the city limits of Oak Ridge, but since it's a fairly rural area, they are sometimes mistaken as being outside the city. If you want to know more about Oak Ridge and the Manhattan Project, there is a really good book City Behind a Fence.
I believe that there are other tours in other sections that you can go to. Although, things may have changed since 2001. They've really beefed up security since then. There's also the American Museum of Science and Energy that out-of-towners sometimes find interesting.
However, I can tell you that Oak Ridge is a wonderful city. Those of us who grew up there find it a little bit boring, but in all honesty, I miss it a whole lot.
If you end up visiting, I'd suggest stopping at Big Ed's for dinner. And if you like BBQ, check out Buddy's BBQ anywhere in Tennessee. It's insulting what passes for barbecue out here in California.
One thing that you don't realize is that while the initial purpose of Oak Ridge and the Manhattan Project was to end World War II, almost everything that has come after that has been devoted to peace and the betterment of mankind. The Oak Ridge National Laboratory is a major institute for the advancement of dozens of areas of science including cleaner sources of energy, biology, environmental cleanup, particle physics, material science, mathematics, and more.
And, having grown up in Oak Ridge, I can tell you that no one forgets what the bombs did. No one in Oak Ridge ever tries to cover up what happened. Quite frankly, I'm disappointed that you are so willing to dismiss a city and project that has had an immeasurable impact on history. Should we celebrate the death of more than one hundred thousand civilians? Certainly not. But neither should we ignore the contribution that the workers, engineers, and scientists of Oak Ridge made toward the ending of the most horrible war that we have ever seen. Many of the workers from Oak Ridge made tremendous sacrifices to serve their country in the way that they could, and the honor in those sacrifices should be respected, regardless of the end result, especially since most of the workers were unaware of the nature of the project.
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Chemistry is chemistry, regardles of what planet you are on. Just like the laws of physics are the same regardless of where you are in the universe. We know the conditions on Mars, thus we know what sort of chemical reactions are possible and which are not. Similarly, we know the conditions on Jupiter well enough to be able to predict what sort of chemistry will be going on there. Based on scientific reasoning, it's pretty safe to assume that if water isn't necessary, then it would certainly make things much easier for life.
Are there molecules we haven't seen before? Quite probably. By the way, the distinction between compounds, gases, and molecules is insignificant here. Are there elements that we haven't seen before? Possibly. But based on universal physical law, we know how they will behave. Besides, atoms of such elements will be rare enough and unstable enough that they wouldn't make a difference for life.
So, I'm wondering, what are you thinking? Silicon based life forms? Not likely, since silicon is much more limited in the types of bonds it can make in comparison to carbon. Nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, boron, and aluminum fail as a basic element for life for the same reasons. Outside of that region of the periodic table, you have no hope at all of creating a living entity (you might *use* those elements for *some* things, but none can work in place of carbon).
Or perhaps you're thinking of replacing water with ammonia. Or perhaps you've read some Arthur C. Clarke and are thinking of using H2S instead of H2O. These are indeed possibilities but are *much less likely* because they are much less efficient than using good old water.
But you seem to be thinking of more exotic things. Perhaps a superintelligent shade of the color blue?
But what it boils down to is that the "rules of basic chemistry" that we've discovered here on Earth most definitely apply universally, because they're based on the universal laws of physics.
I would highly suggest that you take some chemistry classes before trying to make your argument. Find a chemistry teacher and see what he or she thinks of your assertion that "life on Mars has no business following the 'rules of basic chemistry' on Earth.
However, the same (not entirely labor-free) can be said of all types of power plants, whether you're talking about solar, wind, tidal, coal, oil, fission, etc. You have to fix stuff occasionally, you have people monitoring power loads and whatever else needs monitoring, you have a janiotorial staff that cleans up everything, etc.
Thanks for posting that. It's soooo much better than clicking through 20 pages. Should have been linked in the original post.
According to the O'Reilly page for the book, the 4th Edition it has a publication date of July 05. The 3rd Edition was published in July 01. So, I'd say it'll be at least a couple of years before a 5th Edition comes out. If you can hold onto that borrowed copy for that long, then waiting would make more sense. But my guess is that whoever you borrowed it from will want it back before the 5th Edition is published.
There's a big difference between a revolutionary breakthrough that can lead to a cure and the cure itself. The media generally doesn't understand this difference, or doesn't care to make the distinction. Even when you nail down what chemicals are important for treating a given disease there is still much work to be done. Perhaps the potential drug that you've developed has bad interactions (side effects) in other parts of the body, so you need to modify the molecule slightly so that it doesn't have those interactions but is still effective. For instance, it'd be a shame if your cure for cancer caused heart attacks in 50% of patients. Modifying the drug can take several years, even decades.
Also, don't forget about clinical trials. Once you have something that looks like it might be a cure there are still questions like: "What dosage is needed?", "Over what period of time does the drug need to be administered?", etc. These aren't questions that are answered in weeks or months, but in years. And until these questions are answered, you'll only find these drugs as experimental treatments and clinical trials, not as marketed drugs.
Science is a slow process, and when you're talking about putting foreign chemicals into the body to cause major changes, it pays to be thorough in your testing. And yes, there are always false leads in science. Many things that look good initially end up not working, sometimes due to side effects, sometimes because they just can't be made to work on a large scale, or perhaps because it simply isn't cost effective. And by cost effective I'm saying that there are issues of breaking even, not that the drug won't bring in millions. The pharmaceutical industry, just like any other industry, has to obey the laws of economics.
Rest assured, assuming that a cure is possible, we will have cures for most cancers and AIDS within the next few decades, at the latest. I know that saying "be patient" isn't very helpful for someone with cancer or AIDS, but lots of people are working very hard to beat these diseases.
I really wish that I could mod you up a couple more points. I completely agree with what you said.
Actually, I'm the other way around. Opera starts when my computer turns on, and it stays running until I shut down my computer. BitTorrent, however, is simply turned on when I need it and then left on until the computer is turned off. And while I use Opera daily, I only use BitTorrent when downloading a new Linux distro.
Personally, I doubt that adding a BT client to Opera will adversely impact things on my end, and it should help other people out by keeping my BT client open longer. And, going with your assumption that the BT client would stay open after the browser is closed (something I doubt), I'd also like to think that most Opera users are intelligent enough to understand what's going on. Opera seems to be pretty good about letting you tell it what to run and when to run it, so you could probably control the behavior of the BT client if you don't like the default behavior.
I made a couple of attempts with DosBox for some games without much success. ScummVM worked pretty well for some games that I had the game files for. But ScummVM can't handle non-LucasArts games. And neither do anything to help in actually getting the game files back on my computer. The games that I was able to play are ones that I've been pushing from one computer to another for years.
What I'd really like is to have LucasArts, Sierra, and Origin (or whoever owns the rights now) each put all of the old games onto DVDs and set it up so that I don't have to go through 3rd-party emulators.
Sorry, I also forgot to mention that some of the old disks are dead.
I heartily agree. I'd like to go back and play the old LucasArts games like Monkey Island, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, and Day of the Tentacle. I need to put together an old 486/DOS box so that I can load up my old Sierra (Space/King's Quest) and Origin (Wing Commander, Ultima) games. I keep saying it: Computer game companies could make a ton of money by simply updating their old classics to play easily on new computers. I don't even really care about updated graphics. I know that there are things like ScummVM that allow you to play some games and fix up the graphics a bit, but it requires the original disks, which I have but cannot use (no 5.25"/3.5" floppy drives). I, for one, would pay a lot of money to get copies of my old games that Just Work on my newer machines.
... How appropriate, you fight like a cow!
You fight like a dairy farmer!
In case any of you have forgotten: Penny Arcade's take on the issue
About 14 years ago my family hosted two Japanese college students. This was part of an exchange program between Oak Ridge and a town in Japan. When we asked the students about their knowledge of World War II, they were completely unaware that there had been a war, let alone a war in which the US had used atomic bombs on Japan. I've always found it frightening that such a major event in history is (or at least was) essentially ignored by the Japanese educational system.
Obligatory:
42. No, I don't think that's quite right.
You should watch the bonus material on the Star Wars DVD box set. At some point someone comments that in the Old Republic (prequels), you are looking at true Jedi Masters, with millennia of cumulative sword/lightsaber skills. The Jedi are at the height of their power and thus use all of the skills that they have to acomplish their goals.
Constrast that with the original trilogy where you have two remaining Jedi Masters and a farmboy from the middle of nowhere. Luke only has two people to learn swordfighting from, and Yoda never uses a lightsaber because he has no need. Doubtless, Obi Wan would have taught Luke more, had he lived longer, but the older Obi-Wan had learned many hard lessons, one of which is that you need not always defeat your enemies through violence.
I'm not saying that the desire to use eye-candy and the ease of putting it in there didn't have its part, but I choose to believe that there is a little bit more to it than that.
Keep in mind that Google is not the authority on environmental cleanup. Also keep in mind that you're dealing with the Department of Energy, which is a very secretive organization, often for a variety of good reasons. But even with their natural tendency not to disclose information, there have been many meetings in Oak Ridge for the public to come and ask questions about the cleanup and get straight answers.
I agree with you about the tendencies of big organizations and the government to downplay and cover up issues, but this is a situation where coverup and downplay was impossible, and as a result the government is now dealing with the issue. The cleanup will take a long time and lots of money, but the work is being done. I've seen some of it with my own eyes and talked to people working on it.
You might be right in that BS generally surrounds issues like these. However, in Oak Ridge things have moved past the BS stage and are now into the getting shit done stage. I think you're allowing your expectations, your distrust of big organizations and the government, and your ignorance of this particular situation (and I don't mean this in a derogatory way) lead you to an incorrect conclusion. General trends cannot be applied to all situations.
Again, I would suggest that you should talk to people involved in the cleanup projects rather than relying on Google before you draw your conclusions. I think that you are trying to come to a conclusion with insufficient information.
Yeah, I heartily agree. I've always pictured the exchange kind of like this:
... ... and who exactly are you?"
Oak Ridge: "Hello, is this the US Treasury? We need all of your silver for the war effort."
Treasury: "Excuse me? All of the silver?"
Oak Ridge: "Yes, if you'd kindly ship it to this little blank spot on the map in the middle of nowhere in Tennessee."
Treasury: "...
Oak Ridge: "I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. No. Seriously. Ship the silver ASAP, if you don't mind."
Needless to say, this probably isn't what happened, but the story of the Manhattan Project is full of these little amazing details. 15ktons of silver... think of all of the silverware that that would make!
Most of the mercury is isolated in one place and there is a 24 hour reclaimation process going on to get it back out of the soil (Yes, there are ways to do so. I don't know the details, but have seen the equipment.) The contaminated watersheds are indeed roped off, with cleanup techniques being applied. People know what lakes and rivers are okay for fishing, swimming, etc. The problem is not trivial, but does not pose a significant danger to the public. After all, there are 30000 people living in Oak Ridge with thousands more in surrounding areas. It's not as if the whole city is radioactive and full of mercury with no one doing anything about it; the contamination is isolated into specific areas with active cleanup operations going on. I would suggest checking out this site before crying "BS!". Perhaps fire off some emails asking for details about the cleanup process.
Also, I never used the war as an excuse. I simply stated that foolish things were done during the Manhattan Project, which didn't just disappear as soon as the war was over. The Manhattan Project simply redirected partially into new directions. Were stupid things done in the 50's too? Sure. Are things being done to clean up Oak Ridge? YES! Just because you don't know of methods to get mercury out of soil doesn't mean that there aren't any. I may not know the details, but I know people that have worked on the problem. And let me reiterate that the contaminants that wash into the creek have a ways to go before reaching water that can be used by the public. Are the toxins in that first lake used by the public higher than normal? Yes, but it's not as if no one has told the residents how to safely deal with it. Would you rather nothing be done about the contamination?
This is what it boils down to: (1) The contamination is there, whatever the cause -- stupidity, ignorance, lack of foresight. (2) The danger to the public is minimal, especially if they stay away from the contaminated areas, which they should do anyway since going to those areas would constitute federal trespassing. (3) Cleanup of the contaminated areas is ongoing. In fact while the cleanup proceeds, ORNL is using the unique opportunity of actually having contaminated sites to develop new techniques. This is much better than trying to develop a technique in theory with nothing to test it on until there actually is a problem.
None of this has anything to do with the historical importance of Oak Ridge. For better or worse, it is undeniable that the operations that went on in Oak Ridge had a great impact on the world at large. Why should some mistakes in the past and a few hot zones (that you won't be allowed near) prevent you from visiting an important historical site and a very fine town? I can assure you that visiting the Y-12 plant will not shorten your lifespan. It will not make you complicit in some evil government coverup. What it will do is educate you on what happened in the past and what is going on now. Hopefully it will instill some national pride in you, as well. Despite its mistakes, and regardless of your views on whether the atomic bombs should have been used, I fail to see how anyone can deny the amazing acomplishment that was the Manhattan Project. Armed with nothing but a theory and some empty farmland, we produced a monumental (if terrible) achievement in less than a decade. The pace at which Oak Ridge itself was built has probably never been equalled.
So, I beg of you, talk to some people involved in the Oak Ridge cleanup, some of the researchers who have taken technology that was used to make a bomb and have turned it into something that makes drugs that may oneday save your life, or some of the residents of Oak Ridge (of which I am one). Do this before you start crying "Evil!", "BS!", "PR COVERUP!". In fact, go on the tours of Y-12, X-10, and K-25. Ask questions. If the answers aren't to your liking, do some investigation and come back and report back to us.
Good point. The enrichment methods used during the Manhattan Project required rediculous amounts of resources. During tours you often hear terms like "Most of the free world's mercury and silver" for the cyclotrons and "10% of the electricity in the US" for the gasseous diffusion plant. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but it's indicative of the resources needed. Enriching uranium is an extremely non-trivial thing, especially if using the antiquated techniques of the Manhattan Project.
All of the contaminated and radioactive areas are well contained, monitored, and in the process of cleanup. The cleanup itself has led to many new technologies for environmental cleanup in other parts of the world, so it is actually having a positive impact now. None of the contamination affects the drinking water in Oak Ridge. Nor is any of it airborne.
A lot of foolish things were done back during the Manhattan Project, but they also knew a lot less. We're paying for those mistakes, but given the new techniques and technologies we've gained, I'd say it's a good tradeoff.
Basically, if you are smart and stay out of areas that are marked off-limits, there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Basically, you're allowing FUD to prevent you from visiting a nice town and a very important and extremely interesting historical site.
About 15 years ago my family (in Oak Ridge) hosted two Japanese college students. There was something that we were shocked to learn: They had no clue about the significance of Oak Ridge hosting Japanese exchange students! As far as they knew, there had never been a war between the US and Japan, and there certainly hadn't been any atomic bombs used. When we asked them about things, they asked us whether Japan had been our allies in WWII. Perhaps the students we hosted simply hadn't payed attention in history class, but it appears that at that point the Japanese education system was simply ignoring that WWII had happend, and that is a frightening prospect. We hosted another student a few years later that actually knew about the war, but it frightens me that Japan would try to erase that part of history, even though they appear to not be doing that anymore. It truly makes me wonder what would have happened had the war not been ended so conclusively.
Incidentally, Buddy's Bar-B-Q has truly amazing barbecue (as I've mentioned a few other places). And I've had it catered on several occasions at ORNL (not Y-12).
I really hope that you like Oak Ridge. Since you have small kids, this should be of importance to you: From first-hand experience I can tell you that the Oak Ridge school system is truly outstanding, from elementary school through high school. Taxes are high in Oak Ridge so that we can maintain this. When I was in high school, most of my friends and I took nothing but AP classes, and while a "3" is considered passing, most people who got 3's would hide out of shame. We do quite well in everything from Science Olympiad and Science Bowl to test scores to athletics (we have a very good football team, and good soccer/basketball/baseball/tennis/etc). Not bad for a public school system. I'm constantly amazed by how much more prepared I was for college than my fellow undergrads (I went to Rice U. It was rather nice to start out as a second semester sophomore). Yes, your kids should do quite well if they take advantage of the opportunities that the Oak Ridge school system gives them. As for environmental issues, there really isn't that much to worry about. All three government facilities are in separate valleys from the rest of the city, which was initially so that if one facility had a catastrophe, the other two could keep running. This helps things now by concentrating pollutants into smaller areas that are easy to clean up. Just don't plan on cooking your catch when you go fishing. Otherwise you'll be just fine. Besides, I can only think of one neighborhood that is within a mile of Y-12. ORNL and K-25 are much farther away from the residentail areas. Another good thing about Oak Ridge is that you get to take advantage of cheap TVA electricity. Bull Run Steam Plant (a coal power plant) is a model of efficiency and environmental friendliness. You also have Knoxville, which is much larger than Oak Ridge, and the University of Tennessee right next door, within about a 30-45min drive. And I am naturally a big fan of Tennessee football (meaning college football primarily), hiking in the mountains, swimming in and skiing on the lakes, rafting on the Ocoee, and eating really good barbecue. I'm sure that the people you'll be working with at ORNL will be more than happy to answer any questions you have about moving, but I'd be happy to help out too. Incidentally, what division will you be working in at ORNL?
This is the first I've ever heard of tours being given at Y-12, since it is still operational. However, there are (or at least were) tours of various parts of X-10 (aka the Oak Ridge National Laboratory or ORNL) and K-25 (gasseous diffusion plant). However, having worked at Y-12 for a couple summers as an undergrad, I did have a chance to see some of the sights at Y-12, and can say that it's an interesting place in many ways.
Incedentally, the museum is the American Museum of Science and Energy. Also, X-10, Y-12, and K-25 (the three plants) are all inside the city limits of Oak Ridge, but since it's a fairly rural area, they are sometimes mistaken as being outside the city. If you want to know more about Oak Ridge and the Manhattan Project, there is a really good book City Behind a Fence.
I believe that there are other tours in other sections that you can go to. Although, things may have changed since 2001. They've really beefed up security since then. There's also the American Museum of Science and Energy that out-of-towners sometimes find interesting.
However, I can tell you that Oak Ridge is a wonderful city. Those of us who grew up there find it a little bit boring, but in all honesty, I miss it a whole lot.
If you end up visiting, I'd suggest stopping at Big Ed's for dinner. And if you like BBQ, check out Buddy's BBQ anywhere in Tennessee. It's insulting what passes for barbecue out here in California.
One thing that you don't realize is that while the initial purpose of Oak Ridge and the Manhattan Project was to end World War II, almost everything that has come after that has been devoted to peace and the betterment of mankind. The Oak Ridge National Laboratory is a major institute for the advancement of dozens of areas of science including cleaner sources of energy, biology, environmental cleanup, particle physics, material science, mathematics, and more.
And, having grown up in Oak Ridge, I can tell you that no one forgets what the bombs did. No one in Oak Ridge ever tries to cover up what happened. Quite frankly, I'm disappointed that you are so willing to dismiss a city and project that has had an immeasurable impact on history. Should we celebrate the death of more than one hundred thousand civilians? Certainly not. But neither should we ignore the contribution that the workers, engineers, and scientists of Oak Ridge made toward the ending of the most horrible war that we have ever seen. Many of the workers from Oak Ridge made tremendous sacrifices to serve their country in the way that they could, and the honor in those sacrifices should be respected, regardless of the end result, especially since most of the workers were unaware of the nature of the project.