After College, What Type of Jobs Should One Seek?

Sushant Bhatia asks: "I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree, and I'm on the prowl for jobs. However, there are so many types out there it's just overwhelming for someone who's never had to go through the job-hunting process before. So, what should I do? Should I go for a full-time, contract, half-time, or something else? Also, what kind of position should a person with a Master's in Computer Science be looking for (other than dish washer)? I've been looking at senior software developer positions, but is that too high up the ladder for someone 'fresh' to cope with? My current manager (research lab) says that 'You should always find a job that is above your skill level so that you can learn and be challenged.' I think he's right, but is that something Slashdot readers agree with? What was your job coming out of university?"

Comments

Sit over here, sonny.

[Anonymous Coward]

Straight goods:

There's always a need for network people and sysadmins. With the shift from Windows/Proprietary Unix to Linux/*BSD you should concentrate on jobs in those areas, they're booming (I get at least 2 offers a month). If you stick to the Windows side of things you're going to be in a rut of helping users reboot and install patches. If you stick to proprietary Unix you can still do well in some high end research or data center work but cheap clusters are eating the bottom end out of some of that market.

Don't expect a senior position. Frankly too many hot-shot grads think they're The Goods; NONE are. If you can't translate your book smarts to real world work then you're destined to a life at a help desk.

That's how it is around here (I'm based in SoCal with work in 8 data centers around the country and 4 internationally) and I've been in the field since 1988.

Re:Sit over here, sonny.

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Don't expect a senior position. Frankly too many hot-shot grads think they're The Goods; NONE are.

That's not entirely fair (though it mostly is). I've met people who've had enough experience by the time they graduated to understand the real world, and whose talent/enthusiasm/hard work would make them the equals of an average programmer several years into their career (though probably still not an average person getting a senior developer position). This is particularly true of those who've taken placements lasting a few months during their academic careers, or a year out before university, and thus worked in a professional environment for a worthwhile period.

However, your actual ability doesn't really matter much, because image is everything when applying for a job, and you'll be very lucky to find a company that's employing new grads and willing to take a chance that someone who looks that good really is, because as you say, most won't be. It's far more likely that they'd make a relatively good offer for a starting post, and then say nice things and promote rapidly (in salary, if not in job title) over the first couple of years as the greater ability shows through.

Applying for a senior developer position, which usually requires around 5 years of experience, without any prior experience at all will be a direct route to the bin in almost any company I can think of. Larger companies could easily filter you in the HR database before a human even saw your resume. Even at the smaller ones who review CVs by human eye, you'll need an exceptional application to attract enough attention that they'll consider you as a new starter instead, and the ego demonstrated by being a grad applying for a senior position right off would be a major black mark for anyone reviewing CVs I've ever met.

Re:Sit over here, sonny.

[grammar fascist]

There's always a need for network people and sysadmins.

Why would someone with a Masters of Computer Science want a network or sysadmin position? Someone like that almost certainly has little hardware experience - but experience in creating and coding algorithms. With a Masters degree, he's also got experience doing deep research into a narrow subject.

Why enter the real world?

[moofdaddy]

I hear a P.h.D is nice this time of year. Put off entering the "real world" as long as possible.

Apparently one...

[Lucid Interval]

Apparently one which does not require much decision making.

Re:Apparently one...

[timeOday]

Gaining information is an important step in making a decision. Asking Slashdot is an easy way to do that.

One step at a time!

[Pete (big-pete)]

I think you should be very careful - I can't imagine many companies wanting to hire a fresh graduate into a Senior position, there are a lot of experienced professionals out there looking for work, and all the graduates are generally looking to step into a junior software developer positions.

If you aim for unrealistic goals, then you must be prepared to fail, if you do want to go for the senior positions on the off-chance you hit lucky, make sure you also apply for the junior positions elsewhere.

To be honest, just working in a corporate environment should be a challenging learning experience for most graduates, it's completely different to how you will have worked in college. Once you have mastered the basic work-place skills and proven your worth then you will be in a position to move on to more challenging roles.

I would agree that it is best to find a job that you will learn in and be challenged, but the way to do this is to have a lot of applications out there, a number of offers in the bag after interviews, then you choose the most interesting/challenging one. Don't be afraid of accepting positions as they come in, and then "resigning" them before starting if you get a better offer from another company. the companies are pretty strict on making sure they have the right candidate out of many, and if you get the opportunity then you should make sure you pick the best company out of many.

Get your first foot on the ladder, then set your own pace for progression - be on the lookout for stagnation though, if you find yourself getting bogged down in a position, bored and unchallenged, go shopping for a new job.

Hope that helps!

-- Pete.

Re:One step at a time!

[sitkill]

From a person who just went through a hiring phase for two programming positions (one senior, one junior), and wading through the over 200+ resume we did recieve, the only advice i can give you: 1. Don't assume you are qualified for a senior position if you don't have the experience to justify it. Most companies will look for relevant experience versus schooling (not always the case but...) 2. A full time position is always better (and will reflect better on your resume) than any amount of contract work or part time work you did (assuming what type of contract work of course). Companies like to see long term employment. 3. From a lower end position, a master's degree won't help you versus a normal bachlors degree. What you should look out for is the chance to really have an opportunity to make that masters degree work for you. That usually wont happen right away. 4. A position in a researching environment has really good potential of rising up that fabled "ladder" with a masters degree. Of course, a reseraching position will never pay as much as one in the "industry". I'd honestly, like pete said, get your foot in the ladder, and start climbing. Just find a ladder you actually want to climb is the most important thing :)

What skills can you prove you have?

[26199]

That's the key, and a degree doesn't help you much. A degree gives an employer a fair indication that you have a decent level of knowledge and can work reasonably hard. But it doesn't tell them that you'll be able to plan a software project or write code that's easy to maintain.

If you apply for a job and they have a choice between you and someone with more real world experience, odds are pretty good they won't choose you. So, fresh out of college, your choices are limited. Basically, check the job listings and apply for anything which isn't asking for more experience than you've got. There are other things to consider, of course, but that's the major one. They pretty much have to be looking for a fresh graduate.

Learn to spell and punctuate, for one thing

[ky11x]

It's "Master's," not "Masters." See wikipedia entry.

It doesn't look particularly impressive on a resume if you can't even write your educational credentials correctly. Yes, these are small things, but we are nerds, and for nerds small things like this matter. If we weren't obsessive about details, our programs wouldn't compile, and we wouldn't be who we are.

Re:Learn to spell and punctuate, for one thing

[0racle]

Spelling mistakes on a resume are not a small thing, it's stupid to complain about it on Slashdot but not on a resume. You're attempting to make a good enough impression with a piece of paper so that someone who has never met you will consider wanting to know more. Presentation is everything.

You are askign the worng question

[pointyhairedmba]

You're asking the wrong question. You should first sit down and ask yourself what interests you and what you would enjoy doing for a living. Maybe you dig airplanes so you want to get a job working on the computer systems on new planes from Boeing. Or maybe you like security software so go find a job at Symantec. You get the point.

After you've figured out what interests you, go talk to alumni from your school who work in the industry you're heading into. Ask them how they like their job, what salary expectatios you should have with your experience etc.

Whatever you end up doing, make sure you enjoy it. Good luck job hunting! I hope you land somewhere interesting and enjoyable.

Step #1: list your hobbies..

[vinn]

The first question you may need to answer is whether learning is your favorite hobby. If so, then go get a challenging job and join the corporate rat race. Keep in mind that the larger your company and division, the more backstabbing and politics you'll deal with.

If learning isn't your favorite hobby, then put together a list of all the stuff you like to do. Do you like to travel? Mountain bike? Scuba dive? If that's what you enjoy, then go work in that field. Believe it or not, you can find good-paying tech jobs (or just about anything else) in each of those areas. If you like to travel, look on Lonely Planet's web site for jobs. If you like to ride bikes, then check out the website of a bike manufacturer to see if they're hiring.

I worked for a small company for about 3 years and had a lot of fun doing sys admin work. It was a great learning experience and at that point in my life I enjoyed learning just about more than anything.

Then I decided I'd go skiing. Now I get paid to work for a ski resort doing IT work. In the winter I get anywhere between 40 - 100 days of skiing in. I'm actually sort of getting bored of skiing now, so I'm thinking sitting on a beach in Thailand is what I'll do. I just need to get paid for it.

You'll also need to weigh whether the greed of $$$ will override where you want to live. Ideally you'll live and work exactly where you want to. However, you might be tempted to move across the country to a place you hate just to make money.

Entry level because...

[Anonymous Coward]

...believe it or not, real-world experience is very different than academic experience.

I have a great deal of real-world experience now, and a degree as well. When I graduated, I started at entry-level positions and worked my way up. It works.

Recently, I worked with a guy who had a masters in computer science from a well-known accredited state college. And he wasn't an idiot. However, he also wasn't ready for the real world. His troubleshooting thought process needed a great deal of refinement, and his ability to deliver the kind of requirements necessary in the kinds of time-frames necessary just wasn't up to par (yet). During the year that I worked with him, I saw his skills improve (as one would expect). In another several years, he may be senior-position material. But not until he has the experience under his belt.

I am not saying college is easy, nor that the education is valueless. I AM saying that graduates, precisely because of their lack of experience, have an unrealistically high opinion of their own abilities, and often make the sorts of costly (and embarrassing) mistakes that more experienced programmers don't make.

So there's my opinion.

Re:Entry level because...

[CuriHP]

I very much agree with you. That is also why I like schools that have a co-op program. Their graduates are coming out not only with a degree and academic knowledge, but also with about a year of real world experience, sometimes in one specific area, sometimes spread over a few related ones.

Re:Entry level because...

[Ratbert42]

Ditto. I would view anyone as a novice if they didn't have 2-3 years experience working on one project. I've had enough of hotshot-sounding guys that worked 6 months here, 6 months there, whether it's for a contracting company or project-hopping at a big company. If they don't have experience living with the impact of their decisions, they can be worse than useless.

Hell, that's half my career right there: figuring out what some hotshot did while making a "simple" change that broke something else. Why am I so good at it? Because I spent the first half of my career making those same mistakes and having to eventually figure out the consequences.

Re:Masters=2 years experience

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Generally, a Master's degree is worth 2 years of experience by most recruiters.

I think that's optimistic. In some industries, it may well be true, but not computing. In this business, you take a guy with two years' professional development experience over a guy with two more years' academic experience for any non-research development position, because the proven track record and practical skills easily outweigh the same length of time invested in research and theoretical skills.

Higher degrees are good if you want to do research, or as a possible advantage later in your career, but everyone starts on the first rung or two of the ladder. As the parent post suggests, you're never getting up to the senior rungs right from the start no matter how good your academic record may be.

Re:Something's Wrong Here

[Ratbert42]

As an aging overwieght geek living in my own basement, let me tell the kids working at McDonald's something:

The time to figure out what job to get is not the week before you graduate with a master's degree.