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Why Doesn't the Itanium Get the Respect It's Due?

happycorp wonders: "As in recent years the Itanium does well, easily beating x86 processors even at its low clockspeed (1.4Ghz). The supercomputer people are serious about benchmarking (no easily tricked microbenchmarks or reliance on closed-source commercial apps), so the discrepancy between the performance and perception of this chip is serious. With a single-CPU Itanium2 system at around $2000 their price is already reasonable, and the price would come down (and software would be ported) if the Itanium ever became a mass market chip. Having an affordable chip one step above a Xeon or Opteron in floating-point performance would not be such a bad thing for gaming enthusiasts (or 3D artists). So, the recent article on the Top 500 supercomputers list brings up a question I've been meaning to ask: Why do we see so many disparaging opinions of the Itanium processor (all those 'Itanic' jokes, etc.)?" "It seems computing enthusiasts' sentiment is set against this processor, and its likely that it's going to be abandoned sooner or later. We'll be paying for x86 compatibility indefinitely (recall the Xeon has roughly three times the number of transistors of the ppc970 for example; but we hardly get three times the performance).

These are a couple scores from the top 20, with the total gigaflops divided by the number of processors to obtain a per-processor speed:


rank processor ghz (gflops / #procs) speed #5 ppc970 2.2 (27910 / 4800) 5.81 #7 itanium2 1.4 (19940 / 4096) 4.86 #10 opteron 2.0 (15250 / 5000) 3.05 #20 xeon 3.06 (9819 / 2500) 3.92
Given this, consider what a 2 or 3 Ghz Itanium could do.

(fine print: I am not affiliated with the Itanium or the top500 list in any way)."

69 of 668 comments (clear)

  1. Don't get no respect! by XanC · · Score: 5, Funny

    They should have called it the "Dangerfield".

    1. Re:Don't get no respect! by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 5, Funny

      I love Dangerfield. I can imagine the jokes now.

      -I told this good looking Pentium IV that I have instructions that are very wide. She said true, but the pipeline isn't long. I get no respect!

      -The other day I was doing trillions of floating point operations a second. My wife said "Honey, could you mispredict a branch or something? I'm getting sore." I get no respect!

      -My wife finally told me that she's leaving because she's tired of my architecture. I said "Baby, I can change." Then I found out that she's seeing a Transmeta processor. I get no respect!

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    2. Re:Don't get no respect! by demachina · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But seriously, it gets no respect because its a complete dog on anything other than vectorizable Fortran codes. Its inherent in the design.

      The compiler has to do a LOT of work to pack instructions in to the VLIW(Very long instruction word). To get max performance I think you need to schedule 4? instructions in each word. You can do that with carefully written vectorizable Fortran with the help of a talented supercomputing class code tuner.

      When you get to C and C++ it is nearly impossible. Pointers and pointer aliasing completely frustrate the compiler, and in general most C and C++ code don't have the vectorized nature of the class vectorized Fortran codes.

      The IA32 emulation is inherently much slower than a Pentium or Athlon at the same clock and they have much higher clocks than the Itanic. So any application you carry a binary over from an IA32 box is a real dog. It takes advantage of none of the chips strengths and hits all its weaknesses.

      IA64 has a place on some supercomputing applications that exloit its strenghts. On others I wager x386_64 is both cheaper(higher sales volume and easier to manufacture), faster and easier to develop code for. On any C or C++ code IA32 and x86_64 will win hands down.

      With Itanium Intel was betting bumping up the clock on chips would run out of gas sooner than it did. They thought you would have to go to VLIW to keep increasing performance. Unfortunately clocks kept going up enough that the high end AMD and Penitum left it in the dust. AMD also developed x86_64 which gave people 64 bit address space which is needed for some apps, but PC prices and high clocks.

      IA64 is doomed in any place other than niche supercomputing apps and its struggling there against Power, x86_64 etc.

      --
      @de_machina
    3. Re:Don't get no respect! by demachina · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They exist, they fail miserably optimizing most C and C++ code or at least they aren't good enough at it to make up for Itanic's handicapped clock speed.

      You just need to read the other posts here about how hard it is to develop compilers that can find 4 way parallel instructions to cram in to the VLIW at compile time. You find a lot more opportunities at runtime using dynamic scheduling at the price of complexity in the CPU.

      Maybe someday the compilers will be really good and Pentirum/AMD CPU clocks will hit the wall and Itanic will reign supreme. Intel is one of the few companies with pockets deep enough to keep it alive and keep pouring the billions in to both the CPU and the compiler, until it starts outshining x86_64 on anything other than vectorizable Fortran. Wouldn't necessarily count on that confluence of events happening in time to save it. I'd really like to see how much Intel has sunk in to Itanic versus the ROI. It must be appalling. Only a company with a near monopoly elsewhere could survive it.

      Me I'll take an AMD 3400+. My whole computer cost $800 versus $2000 for just an Itanic CPU, it has 2 GB/sec memory bandwidth, runs IA32 apps really fast, is running Gentoo Linux so everything is taking advantage of all the new registers and instructions set improvements, and I have 64 bit addressing. Its sweet and sensible.

      I'm not argueing that Itanic wont hold its niche in supercomputing. Aren't many people who are going to put one on a desktop or in a server.

      --
      @de_machina
  2. The whole article (ICOS) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative


    The chipmaker has released two new Itaniums for two-processor servers as part of its effort to eliminate price premiums on the chip.

    Intel announced on Monday two new Itanium processors for two-processor servers, another step in the company's efforts to eliminate price as a barrier to Itanium acceptance.

    The 1.4GHz Itanium 2 with 3MB of cache is designed for servers in clusters. The new chip will provide about 25 percent more performance and cost much less than the initial Itanium optimised for clusters, which came out last year, said Jason Waxman, director of multiprocessor platform marketing at Intel.

    The second new chip, a 1.6GHz Itanium 2 with 3MB of cache, is optimised for higher performance in general-use two-processor servers, he said.

    Waxman reiterated that Intel is working on several technologies that will eliminate any price premium on Itanium by 2007 and thereby allow its performance advantages to, hopefully, blossom.

    "The price/performance balance will be heavily in favour of Itanium," Waxman said.

    With the focus on price, the Itanium melodrama is once again reaching a turning point. After several years of delays, the chip family debuted in 2001 to poor reviews and negligible customer acceptance. A second version of the chip that appeared in 2002 dramatically improved performance but failed to spark the market.

    Itanium finally began to gain acceptance in 2003 with Madison, a new version of Itanium 2 that substantially improved performance again and lowered the cost. Intel shipped about 100,000 Itaniums in 2003, compared with only around a few thousand for the first two years. Itanium volume is expected to double this year, chief executive Craig Barrett said in February.

    But in 2004, Intel announced that it would come out with a version of its Xeon chip that runs both 32- and 64-bit code. Xeon and Pentium chips typically run 32-bit code. Itanium runs 64-bit code, which, among other advantages, lets a computer maker pack far more memory into a computer.

    Itanium, however, requires completely different software to work well, a factor that has hindered adoption. Part of the appeal of the Opteron chip is that it can handle larger memory loads in 64-bit mode on essentially the same software base.

    Lowering the cost of Itanium servers won't eliminate the software issue, but it will begin to create an environment in which greater acceptance could occur, which in turn could cause software developers to gravitate to Itanium. Analysts and PC makers have viewed this theory with various doses of scepticism, but the range of opinion is generally substantially less negative than it was 18 months ago.

    Price drops have already had some effect. In 2002, a two-processor Itanium server cost about $18,000 (£9,859). With the new chips, a similarly configured system can sell for less than $8,000, while basic one-processor Itanium servers will go for just more than $2,000.

    Some of these price cuts have come as a result of Moore's Law, which predicts that the number of transistors on a chip will double every 18 months. But Intel has also expanded its product line to better suit the economic realities of two-processor servers. The company also designs and partly manufacturers many of the Itanium servers on the market, which cuts independent engineering costs.

    To lower the price further, Intel will begin to create products and add features to Itanium so that Itanium servers can be made out of many of the same components as Xeon servers. In 2005 and 2006, Itanium servers will be able to use the same memory or other components of Xeon servers, Waxman said.

    In 2005, Intel will also come out with two different chipsets for Montecito, the next major version of the chip. One chipset will wring maximum performance out of the chip, Waxman said, while the other will allow server makers to insert Montecito into their Madison-based servers, thereby cutting down independent design efforts.

    By 2007, Intel will

  3. compatibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because Intel tried to force everyone to jump on the 64bit bandwagon at once, while windows didn't even support it yet, without backwork compatibility to existing 32bit software. It's a good design, just doesn't (didn't ?) fit well with the mass market at the time of the release.

    1. Re:compatibility by hackstraw · · Score: 3, Informative

      Itaniums do run 32bit applications. At least for Linux.

      However, if your running a 32bit OS on a 64bit machine, something is not right.

    2. Re:compatibility by TykeClone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sounds like the days of DOS and Windows 3.1 - a 16 bit operating system on a 32 bit platform.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    3. Re:compatibility by drgonzo59 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Their hardware might be really good but the days of every hardware company making its own OS and applications is long gone. Software is just as important. So now hardware companies have to release products that will run the existing software and have room for future improvement. Intel when it released the 64 bit Itanium was still living in the 80s thinking it was controlling the computer market. Also in the late 80's and early 90's there wasn't as much software around a lot of companies could afford to switch to a new platform, today it is much much harder to do it.

      I think AMD has clearly won the market in terms of the consumer 64bit processor. And I can buy a double-core AMD today but I couldn't get a double-core Intel offering for a good price.

    4. Re:compatibility by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 4, Funny

      Old joke. And you misquoted it...

      "Windows is a 32-bit extension to a 16-bit graphical shell for an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition."

    5. Re:compatibility by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not just compatibility, though that's also a big issue. The problem is that the compilers for the Itanium just aren't that mature. It's the same reason the PPC sucks so bad on a lot of benchmarks.

      Hand optimized assembly will give you screaming fast results. Unfortunately, you can't build modern applications that way and you end up having to rely on the compiler to optimize for you. On the x86, the compilers are amazingly efficient these days by contrast.

      If you've got a 64 bit database, and a 64 bit OS and a 64 bit middleware, what more do you need? You don't need to run photoshop on it. Compatibility is only marginally an issue on servers.

    6. Re:compatibility by TykeClone · · Score: 3, Informative
      Not really. MSDOS and Windows 3.x (if I remember correctly) were a 16 bit operating system.

      The intel 386 cpu was a 32 bit platform.

      The joke was derived from this...

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    7. Re:compatibility by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sure, an Itanium will run all your existing 32-bit stuff...in compatibility mode, which means you get performance akin to a 300MHz Pentium-II on your $2000 CPU. Remind me again why I'm supposed to buy Itanium?

      But to return to seriousness again for a moment, the Itanium isn't pitched at mainstream anymore, and it's debatable whether it ever was. It's an entirely new ISA -- and a very good one at that -- and software developers just didn't see a good reason to jump on it when cheap x86 CPU's were selling like hotcakes.

      Intel would've loved to have forced the entire industry to move to IA64 years ago. If it had done so before the Athlon XP ever hit the scene, it's possible the chip giant could have pulled it off. However, with the advent of the Athlon XP (and MP's as well), if Intel abandoned x86, AMD would be there to pick up the pieces, giving customers the option of (a) continued use of their paid-for apps and paid-for OS's on a cheap, fast, x86 chip or (b) loss of all practical use of your 32-bit apps and OS's, total rewrites and recompilations of all core software bits, all on a $2,000 CPU. It's quite clear why Intel didn't try to do such a stupid thing.

      So, on the one hand, we can thank AMD for giving us cheap, fast CPU's that run pretty much whatever you want these days. On the other hand, we can thank AMD for keeping us stuck on x86 to begin with, for without AMD we'd almost certainly all be on IA64 today. But, since I like competition, I can say I'm extremely glad things turned out the way they did. IA64 would've been the death-knell for AMD and any other kind of competition, and Intel would be milking us for all we're worth today if it could.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    8. Re:compatibility by codeguy007 · · Score: 4, Insightful


      Oh well, I love AMD for their work, but I really think they barked up the wrong tree. I would have supported whole heartedly an implementation of PPC 64-bit or even some grounded up archetecture just as much as I supported Itanium, but they decided to go the cheapest route, faking it for the sake of performance.


      So what did AMD fake? The designed a 64 Bit processor with full backwards support to 32Bit code. That's nothing intel didn't do before remember 16/32Bit?

      Also AMD Opteron technology was designed by some of the brightest people to ever come out of DEC. These are the guys that designed Alpha. In fact there are designs for the next generation Alpha that would compete with anything currently out there. Compaq just couldn't afford to pay the large cost of converting the FAB.

  4. It is true for processors as it is for people... by ratta · · Score: 5, Funny

    the dead ones were always much better :)

    --
    Wondering why i am doing so strange posts? I am trying to get a "+5,Flamebait" or "-1,Insightful" rating.
  5. Brand issues? by darth_MALL · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have certainly noticed a general move away from Intel in the past few years. I think they may have had a run of bad press and serious competition from other manufacturers lately.
    They just aren't the juggernaut they used to be. There was a time when they built it and people came. I presume choice is what's keeping the sales down.

  6. Follow the herd! by bwalling · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why do we see so many disparaging opinions of the Itanium processor (all those 'Itanic' jokes, etc.)?

    Because people repeat what they hear. Many people here only know what has been said on Slashdot about the Itanium. They've never used one. MrDicker64 said it was crap, so it must be!

    1. Re:Follow the herd! by pdbogen · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hey, bwalling is right! We shouldn't just take what other people say and assume it's true!

      Wait...

      *brain asplodes*

    2. Re:Follow the herd! by MrDicker64 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I protest! For the record, I have *never* publically stated that Itanium was "crap". I reserve such sentiments exclusively for products from Microsoft.

    3. Re:Follow the herd! by chrismcdirty · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I only ever called it the Itanic because one of my professors, who works (or worked) at Intel and researched the architecture very extensively to document it also called it the Itanic. According to him, it was basically what everyone else has been saying so far.. great idea, bad execution.

      --
      It's like sex, except I'm having it!
    4. Re:Follow the herd! by jarich · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Many people here only know what has been said on Slashdot about the Itanium. They've never used one.

      I worked at a startup that was building a database ~70 gigs in size. It took 2 months to build said database. Lots and lots of very small lookups and inserts.

      Memory was our bottleneck. More ram equals more speed. So we spent BIG bucks and bought a quad Itanium with 12 or 16 gigs of memory (I forget exactly how much it had).

      The Itanium was slower than a dual X86 with 2 gigs of memory! And not just a little slower. We spent weeks trying to get the database optimized.

      Why does no one respect the Itaniums? Intel made a slow chip. Then they released the sequel. I've already paid my dues on that line once. I'm not playing this round.

    5. Re:Follow the herd! by PopCulture · · Score: 4, Funny

      you must be new here...

      --

      Here's to finally giving Bush his exit strategy in November
    6. Re:Follow the herd! by operagost · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Itanium I, right? You didn't mention when this was.

      Your anecdote probably has little to do with the current processor.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    7. Re:Follow the herd! by CptNerd · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Howard Johnson is right!"

      --
      By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
    8. Re:Follow the herd! by empaler · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes yes! We're all individuals!

    9. Re:Follow the herd! by Hythlodaeus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Memory was our bottleneck. More ram equals more speed.

      Don't blame Itanium that you picked the wrong chip for your needs. A little back-of-the-envelope calculation could have saved you a lot of money. With your 70 gb database and 2 gb of ram, assuming there wasn't much locality in the lookups you have about a 2.85% chance that your next lookup is already in memory. Up it to 12 gb and you have 17.14% - still not much, so either way your main bottleneck is going to be the bandwidth of your memory system. There was no secret that the first batch of Itaniums used 133 MHz RAM while DDR ram for x86 was up to 266 or maybe even 333 MHz by that time. Itanium's niche has always been floating-point intensive applications, which yours was not.

      --
      For great justice.
    10. Re:Follow the herd! by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many people here only know what has been said on Slashdot about the Itanium.

      You only need to know three things about the Itanium to pretty much automatically rule it out:

      1) Heat (and the related, power consumption). Not a joke, not a rumor. The Itanium makes the Prescott core look cool and energy-efficient by comparison.

      2) Not designed to run the software in use by 99.5% of the PC market. Great for a custom supercomputer, okay for some servers, complete shit for normal desktop use.

      3) Price. They hope to make it competitive by 2007? How long has it existed now, at 3-10x the price of the highest end x86 CPU? And someone actually needs to ask why it hasn't hit mainstream use yet?


      That about does it for me, anyway. Did I miss something obvious here? I don't see this as a case of the rumor mill damning it, just its own HUGE shortcomings to offset its single good point (namely, good performance for a very limited set of uses).

    11. Re:Follow the herd! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have to concur. System and memory bandwidth are often overlooked when designing a system.

      "It's got 2 xeons and 4 GB of ram! :P"
      It sounds great to management.

      As my colleague noted above, db operations are IO bound. This means you have to get data from point a to point b very quickly, whether from memory or disk.

      To do that job you need high memory and system bus clock speeds, so there is no vaccuum happening at the cpu in.

      There is a point of diminishing returns with adding memory. Sometimes adding too much memory can slow things down, considerably.

      The CAS latency increases as does the latency due to memory management overhead.

      With a db you face the same exact issue that professional audio engineers do. Getting lots of data to the cpu, and back out somewhere.

      Anecdote:
      my buddy, a pro dj, got a dual xeon 2.4 Ghz (I think it was) 4GB memory for producing music. at around 47 audio streams, snap crackle pop. cpu usage was around 10% or so. It was a 12000 dollar mistake on his part.

      I walked in with a $700 amd 64 3200+ (thats 2Ghz) with 1/4 of the memory, one cpu, and I loaded up a project with 134 audio streams and it played like butter.

      Both were running windows xp 32, both were running Steinberg Cubase SX.

      Xeon specs:
      FSB 533
      DDR 133 on 4 1GB sticks

      AMD 64 spec:
      FSB 800
      DDR 400 on 1 1GB stick

      Read the specs for VIA K8T800 chipset and compare it to any Xeon chipset. This time period was a year ago Christmas. Read up on how the memory architecture works for both CPU's.

      Database tests were similar. Just about any IO bound process will produce a similar result. Music, video, db, etc.

      It isn't that the xeon sucks, it's a computations per second centric architecture. Unfortunately for intel, they focused on clock speed when they should have been removing architecture bottlenecks which would allow people to take advantage of all those cycles. The G5 has similar issues but not as bad.

      It's all about the memory and bus architecture... The sad uninformed people say (pinch airflow from nose so you sound geeky) "It's a 64 bit processor, you need a 64 bit OS to take advantage of it, period".

      What they fail to realize is the 64 bit memory and bus architecture happen *below the HAL*. the OS doesn't even see it, let alone need to be 64 bit to take advantage of it. I politely let them flap their gums and went out and bought one anyway, then proved them wrong.

      Computationally = intel, tho that gap is narrowing
      IO = AMD64 or opteron.

      I don't care if you are running windows 95, amd64 will be faster for IO bound stuff, than any 32 bit architecture is capable of even getting close to.

      If you are crunching spreadsheets, word processing or videogaming, *generally*, intel is better, tho that gap is getting smaller. It will likely disappear when 64 bit OS's get apps caught up to them.

      For DB, working with large files, shunting lots of streams around the mobo, AMD 64 *smokes* intel 32 right now, 32 bit apps notwithstanding. There is simply no contest.

      l8,
      AC

  7. Itanium2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I had to study the chip in one of my EE class. The technology in it is really really impressive. I love the memory architecture provisions!

    1. Re:Itanium2 by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 4, Funny
      If it was anything like my EE class (1998 era) they were also handing out Itanium architecture manuals, Itanium platform reference guides, a book about Processor Architecture written by a guy from Intel, taught by a professor who drank out of an "intel" mug, and the cute female grad student had an "intel inside" t-shirt on with an arrow pointing down.

      Yeah, I had that class.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    2. Re:Itanium2 by joib · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, after you take the "Compilers" course maybe your love for IA-64 will have, uh, dimished a bit.

      The VLIW architecture is beautiful in many ways, but creating a compiler that creates fast code for an in-order VLIW processor is a seriously difficult undertaking.

    3. Re:Itanium2 by jandrese · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...cute female EE grad student...

      I recognize all of the words, but it still doesn't make sense.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  8. No x86 Compat is the Achilles' Heel by Thornkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think the big problem is that it cannot run x86 software very quickly. Most software that people want to run in the mass market is precompiled, binary x86 software. That stuff just does not run well on the Itanic. That, combined with the fact that the mass market still doesn't really benefit from a 64-bit address space means that the Itanium was a more expensive, slower processor. It's no wonder that it didn't sell.
    Early versions also had problems with heat. Where I work we have some Itanic workstations and in the winter, if we were chilly, we literally turned them on to help warm up our offices.

    1. Re:No x86 Compat is the Achilles' Heel by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think the big problem is that it cannot run x86 software very quickly.

      Yeah, that is why semi trailers don't get respect like Dodge Neons. They use diesel fuel instead of unleaded!

      My point is that if your buying a 64bit system that is fast in order to run your old 32bit programs slowly. Wrong tool for the job.

      I've got 65 Itanium processors downstairs. They are fast and reliable for high memory bandwidth floating point calculations, which is what we use them for. They may be a disappointment with running IE or Outlook, but for crunching numbers they are great. I have yet to of tried an Opteron but will in the next couple of weeks. From what I understand those too have become great at high memory bandwidth number crunching, but I'll wait for the numbers vs marketing speak. Now, Itaniums do suck in the power consumption and heat dissipation department.

      Itaniums get such a bad rep here on Slashdot because its cool to do so. Itaniums are made by the "big guy", Intel. If they were made by AMD they would not get the same rap as they do.

      The other big thing against the Itaniums is market need. A generic x86 that you can throw in the trash and replace for about $1k if there are any problems are sufficient for 99% of the servers out there. If not even preferred. Now, what other market would want a fast 64bit architecture with high memory bandwidth -- databases. Sun and Oracle fill this void. Well except for the fast and high memory bandwidth part, but Oracle+Sun is a proven combination with years of experience. Solaris does not run on Itaniums. Linux does (flawlessly), but even Oracle+Linux is not that widely adopted. I have no clue about Windows state on an Itanium. I see no real use to run Windows on an Itanium, but someone else might, but I doubt its very common.

      Although Intel has some more to go with the low-voltage Itaniums because they are capped at 1.3GHz, but they are working on that. Also, Intel has dropped the price of these guys considerably. This too was an issue with Itaniums, but they have dropped by about 1/2 the price over the years.

      IMHO, Intel should continue on the power management issues and price and market these chips more for number crunching. Their performance on the top500 site is impressive, but even if all of the top 500 computers used 4,000 Itanium processors each, that would only be 2,000,000 processors total, and a super computer that size is not purchased very frequently.

    2. Re:No x86 Compat is the Achilles' Heel by bani · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Itaniums get such a bad rep here on Slashdot because its cool to do so. Itaniums are made by the "big guy", Intel. If they were made by AMD they would not get the same rap as they do.

      bullshit. itaniums get a bad rep on slashdot for any number of reasons, and they cannot all be distilled down to "because it's hip and trendy to bash itanium".

      slashdot would still be bashing itanium if it were from amd.

      few people like paying $1000+ for a cpu alone, for example.

      itanium is a niche processor filling a tiny tiny tiny market. and it is already hitting scaling issues.

      itanium also has yet to deliver on most of its performance promises. just about the only one it's delivered on so far is memory bandwidth :-)

      intel gambled itanium's future on its dependency of a number of risky and unproven technologies (eg VLIW). in order for itanium to succeed, ALL of these technologies had to succeed. instead what happened is virtually NONE of them did.

      it's quite telling when a lot of the intel engineers and scientists involved with itanium are calling it a huge mistake. the p4 guys aren't impressed either :-)

      itanium is doomed longterm. most of intel's itanium partners have long since bailed on the architecture, most projects for itanium have been killed off (including windows), which guarantees itanium has no longterm future.

      some lessons from itanium may be rolled into other intel mainstream products, but as a product itself itanium's days are numbered. itanium has been a huge black hole sucking billions of r&d from intel while amd has been constantly chipping away at intel's market share with x86_64. itanium has never turned a profit, in over a decade of development on the damned thing. it's only a matter of time before stockholders demand itanium be hauled out to the barn and given both barrels.

      most people who have studied itanium closely conclude itanium is an r&d project that should have remained in the labs as pure r&d, and never turned into a product.

  9. Two things: by grahamlee · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One, it gets no respect because nobody uses it. Where is the kudos for the transputer? Why does nobody love the Apple ///? Second, yes it beats the x86 into the ground. I'm not surprised. Now show me how it compares against a real CPU. We've already seen that the Itanium is competing in a different space (supercomputers), so show me how it compares with the MIPS that SGI have ditched in its favour. I wouldn't be surprised if an n GHz MIPS stuffs an n GHz Itanic into the floor.

    1. Re:Two things: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Now show me how it compares against a real CPU. ... I wouldn't be surprised if an n GHz MIPS stuffs an n GHz Itanic into the floor.

      Guess what? It doesn't. Itanium really does outperform MIPS and if you'd care to look it up yourself, you'd see. Itanium and POWER have been rougly neck and neck in vying for the top performance spot since the Itanium 2 was first released. Each new processor from either vendor bests the other.

      As for your disparaging remarks about X86, consider that it offers the highest performance outside of Itanium and POWER on floating point and overall keeps pace on integer code. Topping X86 is, believe it or not, a real feat. Top of the line AMD64 and Intel chips are engineering marvels as far as processors go. MIPS certainly can't touch them.

      It may be fashionable to dis X86 but if you look at the numbers and the microarchitecture, you'll be hard pressed to find anything significantly better.

  10. Sure, it's cheap NOW. by Proc6 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Probably because when it mattered a single CPU Itanic was more like $12,000 and not $2,000. After fucking up all their marketing and delivering strategies no one wants one anymore.

    --

    I'm Rick James with mod points biatch!

  11. Easy Answer: It started as a flop by drhamad · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hundreds and hundreds of products have been killed or permanently crippled because their first versions were terrible. Itanium is the same thing. With the public perception of the Itanium still the same as it was for the first (pathetic) iteration of it, how are you going to convince your manager to spend the money to get it? Benchmarks only go so far.

    --
    -Daniel
  12. Here are.. by th1ckasabr1ck · · Score: 5, Informative
  13. because it's a failure by danheskett · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Itanium was a huge project jointly developed with many partners, most of the significant ones have long since abandoned the effort.

    It was supposed to be the future of Intel - shipping units on the order of the pentium line. A redesign from scratch of how processors "should" be designed.

    It's taken far longer, cost far more, and yielded far less than promised.

    That's basically it.

    Also, I'd be willing to bet Intel staked a bigger part of its decision on the availablity of platform independent binaries making serious inroads, which hasn't really materialized. Platform independence of the major OSS and commerical apps is obtained through porting and source-level compatability.

  14. No good compilers for EPIC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I may be entirely wrong, but I believe the dislike for the Itanium stems from the fact that you can't compile any decently optimized code for it. Apparently, even Intel can't create a good compiler/linker and toolkit for creating machine code that makes good use of EPIC. Even though the processor itself is more efficient and faster, the same thing compiled to machine code running side by side with an Opteron or any other x86-64 chip will see the x86 win. If somebody could come up with a decent compiler/linker that provided full EPIC optimizations, they would be bangin, but they don't have it so we don't use it.

  15. the problem is those are well optimized benchmarks by Surt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The people who work on scientific applications take performance seriously. They put a lot of effort into optimization. The itanium architecture is hard to optimize for, and the compilers just aren't there yet for the general case. So you wind up with a disparity between the performance in scientific applications and general purpose applications.

    Other reasons itanium can't compete:

    1) Compare the performance of itanium with xeon/opteron in running native x86 code.

    2) Compare the costs of building real end user systems.

    3) Compare the availability of windows xp drivers.

    --
    "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  16. A few reasons: by NaruVonWilkins · · Score: 5, Informative

    One, market penetration. Windows *kind of* works on Itaniums. Code has to be compiled specifically for the platform - they're not very good at x86 code through WoW.

    The BIOS replacement they use is not functional. It's very difficult to set up disks for use, and if you lose the disk that the BIOS data is kept on, you're screwed. As far as I know, there is no way to make that fault-tolerant short of manually storing the contents of that partition on another drive.

    Support for the Itaniums has been terrible. The HP systems are riddled with hardware problems, and their support personnel (at the enterprise level) have no idea how to comprehend that they don't operate quite like any other workstation.

  17. It's the integer performance by GGardner · · Score: 3, Informative

    While, the IA64 has always had great floating point performance, there's an awful lot of us out here that don't need fast FPUs -- e.g. code development, database, web serving, network i/o etc. Sure, IA64 is a winner for the teraflop oriented supercomputing community, but for the rest of us, integer performance matters more. And for price/performance, x86 and x86_64 beat ia64.

  18. It's a pain in the ass by unsinged+int · · Score: 5, Interesting

    to compile for Itanium. Speaking as a compiler researcher, Itanium is great for generating research papers because there are all sorts of things that you can do from a compiler perspective. The problem is, outside a research environment, someone has to implement a lot of the ideas in an Itanium compiler to make it useful. Unfortunately, most of the stuff in the Itanium research papers isn't easy to implement and most of what gets put into commercial compilers are the easily implementable ideas.

    1. Re:It's a pain in the ass by Jeffrey+Baker · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yeah, nice CPU, difficult for software authors. I read a paper recently wherein the authors managed to reduce L4 microkernel message passing (up to 8 bytes) to 36 clock cycles, which is far faster than any other platform. But this was done by hand, and the compiler blurted out a routine that required 508 cycles. The gulf between what you can really do with an Itanium, and what normal software writers can do with it, remains huge.

  19. Feel good factor by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why anything doesn't get the respect that it is due. It is because people don't want to give it respect. The Unix People go Well Sun Ultra Sparc (Or any other of the 64 bit Unix platforms) has be 64 bit for many years before the Itanium. The Apple crowd went well the Power PC is now 64 bit (although this is changing, and may possibly give Itanium some respect). The windows users are afraid of Itanium because it may break a lot of compatibility in their legacy apps. The Linux users are afraid of a complete Intel Dominance and put their development efforts to AMD 64bit chips. It is a state where you see the old king dieing and this is your only opportunity to get a change in government before the kings son gets in power. Why doesn't FreeBSD get the respect it deserves, or why doesn't Python get the respect it deservers. The winner is not always the best or even close to the best, the winner is often the one that people feel good about.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  20. Re:Physics. by kfg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Its easier to harness the power of many horses than grow one 100 times as powerful.

    No, it is easier to grow 100 horses than one horse 100 times as powerful, and yet we've gone ahead and done it anyway, because, in point of fact, it is easier to harness and control one horse than 100.

    See The Wheel of Reincarnation.

    KFG

  21. Itanium by myrick · · Score: 5, Informative
    Itanium is definitely a brilliant architecture in many ways, and lessons will have to be learned from it some day. It takes a little history to know why it's called "Itanic," however.

    The Itanium was designed to change the way processors worked. Most processors today are some sort of dymically scheduled behemoth that are capable of detecting instruction collisions on the fly, and reordering instructions for optimal parallelism and thus performance in the light of those collisions. Itanium takes a completely different approach. It is an extremely wide processor that has absolutely no collision detection or reordering. All of the work in this respect is placed on the compiler's shoulders. In theory, a good compiler could make this chip very, very fast, and in reality, as you see, this can be the case. So why did it fail? Intel hyped the hell out of this processor, and then missed their release date by a full two years. That is microprocessor suicide in the land of Moore's law. So, when Intel delivered a chip too late that failed to perform the way they marketed it to, the chip died. In recent years, Itanium has really come around, but it's hard to escape your past in this industry.

    Other relevant problems for adoption are tied to this need for a good compiler. Making a compiler as smart as it needs to be for Itanium to live up to its potential is not cheap, and Intel is not known for just giving away such technology. I'm sure the fees to license Intel's compiler are nontrivial, and that does not encourage development. Realistically, Itanium will never become a desktop chip just because of the massive adoption effort that would go into such a switch.

    One thing to note, however, is that other chips aren't that far away. You suggest that a 2ghz or 3ghz Itanium would be incredibly fast, and I agree, but I seriously doubt Intel can ramp it that fast. Also, the Opteron specs you show are for 2.0ghz, and I believe Opteron is up around 2.6 or 2.8 ghz nowadays.

    Ultimately, Itanium is a great design, but wrapped in a poorly executed initial implementation. It does teach a good lesson that compilers can really help improve chip performance, and down the road, architectures that take this into account may reign supreme. But I wouldn't look to Itanium to do any more than instruct us for the future. She is not a desktop chip.

    --
    I'd rather be cycling.
  22. Many reasons.... by loony · · Score: 5, Informative
    Well, I can talk only for myself but...
    • Windows on itanium is a joke... What software are you going to get running well there? We tried it and 80% of the software we needed to certify a new OS wasn't there.
    • HP-UX is better off but still - if you have any legacy software at all in your system you're screwed.
    • Linux is doing alright - but if you use a Itanium box running Linux and pit it against new xeon with the same number of CPUs, the Itanium looks like a dog...
    • Most business apps are integer processing - itanium doesn't look that great in the int benchmarks...
    • I'm frankly just tired of hearing about it... Since 7 years we hear that itanium is going to be the future and all - hasn't happened yet and I doubt it ever will at the pace its moving. Why port to a platform that already feels dead before it even took off?
    • You can't compare a Xeon and an Itanium box by the per cpWe already support 5 different platforms - why would I want to add a 6th one if the performance gains are going to be pretty meger...

    Peter.
  23. Two words by overshoot · · Score: 4, Insightful
    No applications.

    Microsoft apps are nonexistent, and open-source apps tend to have crappy performance due to the fact that IA-64 depends overwhelmingly on compiler optimization. Developers can use Intel's compiler, but it requires work to use with most Linux systems (the only other platform that supports IA-64 besides MS, AFAIK).

    Net result: no applications => no uptake, QED.

    Egg, chicken, all that.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  24. FLOPS isn't enough by timster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You have floating-point listed there, which is great for science I'm sure, but where are the integer numbers?

    --
    I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
  25. Too much hype, too long to deliver by stienman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The itanium is an amazing architecture with so many performance boosting upgrades that it would have blown everything out of the water.

    If it came out on time.

    It was so late that by the time it came out it was still better than existing processors, but not by a large enough margin to justify its cost.

    As the clock speed goes up, and as the other processors find their limitations and drop out of the race, the Itanium will look better and better. There is, however, a large investment in time and software that must be made before it becomes truly useful. It is unlikely that MS is going to support more than one architecture simultaneously for the desktop or server as it tried to do for x86/alpha.

    The big marketing push and the number of companies signing on to the good ship itanic coupled with the constant pushback of the release date caused Intel to lost a lot of the press attention they should have received when it did come out.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens over time, especially as Intel wants it to be a server chip.

    Of course, this could all be a big leadup to the announcement that Apple is going with the Itanium.

    -Adam

  26. Itanium was no failure. by team99parody · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From a business point of view, it was quite the success.

    When Itanium started, Intel was absolutely nowhere in 64 bit and high-end computing. Thanks to Itanium, over half Intel's competitors simply walked away from the market with little more than a few press releases from Intel.

    Consider that at the time, you had Alpha (Dec), PA-RISC (HP), MIPS (SGI), and Sparc as leading 64-bit computing platforms.

    HP in it's infinite wisdom was suckered the worst - giving up their own leadership position just to be strung along for many years in Intel's PR bluff. However Wall Street loved the "ooh, intel's story's so aWsUM that even HP is giving up" that SGI spun off and MIPS gave up on the high-end space; and Dec->Compaq->HP undervalued Alpha and it went away.

    This has to be the most successful come-from-zero-to-wipe-out-half-the-market story in the history of computing. How can it be considered a failure.

  27. Intel didn't learn from IBM Micro Channel by bADlOGIN · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Intel figured it was big enough to set the trend by making a radical change. It was wrong and paid the price when the market didn't follow. IBM thought it was big enough to set the trend by making a radical change with Micro Channel Architecture (replacement for the ISA Bus). It went nowhere and helped kill IBM's dominance of the X86 PC world it created. The fact that Intel didn't bet the farm and loose everything is either good planning or dumb luck on thier part.

    --
    *** Sigs are a stupid waste of bandwidth.
  28. Re:Everyone else is doing it! by paitre · · Score: 3, Informative

    In my case, this is actually a load of bull.
    I've never had a significant problem with a CPU that couldn't be pointed at some external issue with the platform - be it cooling, the MB chipset sucking, etc. Things that Intel -does- try to "Do Right" by us on.

    That said - I use AMD CPUs pretty much exclusively in my work. Xeon 64bit wasn't there when we needed it (Feb of last year) and Opteron beats the shit out of Xeon on the stuff we do and finally, I can get -real- dual-core Optys -now-, not bolt-ons using the same damned broken shared bus that Intel x86 has been beating on forever.
    Price, as a matter of fact, is no longer a consideration. I know I'm paying more for AMD. I'm also getting the product I want and need.

    Itanium -could- actually fit into my DC. Everything we do is compiled by us, locally, and it's entirely possible that we'd benefit from it. However, even at 2k/CPU I can't justify the cost when we're looking at driving the CPU number up (our jobs are of the type where the more chunks you can divvy your dataset up into, the faster things get done - so the more processers, the better - it doesn't matter if that Itanium gets my process done in 45hours while it takes that Opteron 55 hours if I can throw twice as many Opterons at the problem and get it done in 30 due to smaller data chunks).

  29. Fallacies in the article by vlad_petric · · Score: 4, Insightful
    1. transistor count. You do need more transistors for decoding x86 into micro(mu)-ops, but in the end your L2(3) cache is gonna be >50% of your chip area. Interestingly enough, Itanium chips are overloaded with L3, and in fact, the first chip to break the 1billion transistors is an Itanium II chip. The good performance of Itanium comes a lot from its shitload of caches; nothing's preventing Intel from loading the P4 with caches though.

    2. x86 is bad/ugly/dirty/whatever, however Itanium is not exactly clean either. The stacked register file is a good example of that. I personally prefer x86-64, which takes the evolutionary approach: fixes quite a few of the problems of x86, while still retaining the core features.

    3. x86 chips do out-of-order execution; Itanium, OTOH relies on the compiler to schedule instructions and bundle them together. The main problem here is that doing instruction scheduling statically is much, much harder than doing it dynamically. An average program has a basic block size that is less than 10 instructions. It's very hard to find parallelism within such small basic blocks, so to be efficient at all, you need to do profiling to build traces/hyperblocks. In fact, profiling on the Itanium can give you a performance boost of 30%. However, profiling is hardly desirable from a software developer's perspective

    --

    The Raven

  30. Re:Did I miss something? by MynockGuano · · Score: 4, Informative
    He mentioned a single Itanium CPU System for $2000, and remarked that the floating point performance of the processor might be good for gamers.

    From TFA...
    The 1.4GHz Itanium 2 comes out Monday for $1,172 in 1,000-unit quantities. A 1.6GHz version comes out in May for $2,408 in similar quantities.
    That $2000 buys the processor, alone, and I don't believe I know any gamers that buy processors in lots of 1000.

    The entire issue of price and performance is moot, however. The severe restriction to acceptance of the chip for the market is the ia64 architecture (with practically non-existant emulation performance). It is very difficult to find commercial software (even HPC software) available for the system, so you're limited to in-house programs and open-source programs (most of which need to be tweaked and rewritten). The platform isn't deployed in sufficient quantities to create enough demand for commercial vendors to bother supporting it yet, so you end up with the chicken-and-egg problem that most Linux gamers are all too familiar with.
  31. Itanium problems. by stnuke · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, there are many reasons the Itanic failed. It was a great architecture, a neat idea. Shift all of the intelligence in the chip up to the compiler, execute in-order, optimised code, get rid of deep bypassing, etc. Generally, get rid of the extra 50% of the chip that's dedicated to turning an instruction stream into a series of vectors.

    Note, it *was* a neat architecture.

    Then, everybody got involved. Imagine a roomfull of architecture, compiler, and systems PhD's, each with their own pet idea. And this chip had them ALL in it. Anybody remember the i432? In a way, this was the i433.

    BUT. This meant a complete break with the current codebase, and in the final analysis intel didn't have the guts for it. Especially once their hopes for compilers weren't being borne out (once, Intel was a HUGE player in the market for compilers PhD's). So the guys at Intel decided to add x86 hardware compatilbility to this. Then, since their compiler plans weren't working out, they added out-of-order execution.

    Now, all of these things had crazy interactions. Suddenly, who knew what it was doing? Then the power... all those units, executing all those dead instructions - it ran HOT. Then the fact that x86 compat and o-o-o were a gigantic boat anchor in terms of chip real estate, driving the cost through the roof pretty much sealed its fate. It became a "server processor". And if you get 7 or 8 P4's for the price of one Itanium... well, your cluster is better served with those 7 or 8 P4's.

    Pride goeth.

  32. Removal of heatsinks and serial numbers by SeanDuggan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Most amusing to me was that the early versions had the chip serial numbers on the area covered with the heatsink. Removing the heatsink voided your warranty. You needed that serial number to get warranty work done on the processor.

    --
    This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
  33. Itanium is an astounding success by Jhan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let me tell y'all a little story.

    Back in '94-'95 i was doing the third grade of the Computer Science course at the Royal Institute of Technology, which meant I had to choose a specialization. I chose "Computer Systems", ie. processors, busses, caches and what-not.

    This was a very exiting time to be studying processors since (for a fleeting moment) Intel processors where the absolutely worst processors among the serious combatants.

    Yes, you read that right. The Alpha was (of course) and unstoppable juggernaut, but through a freak act of development schedules the new MIPS had managed to outstrip the latest Alpha.

    After MIPS and Alpha we had PA-RISC, SPARC, PPC and then finally the pathetic, lowly Intel x86.

    Alpha had strong plans of totatlly replacing the x86 by offering Alpha based x86 emulations that were faster than the fastest x86 in running x86 code.

    But now, Intel announced the Itanium.

    • It will be 64 bit (all the above architectures were, of course already 64 bit).
    • It will be multi-processor (all the above architectures had cache coherency logic to allow 8+ processors).
    • But, most of all, it will have THIS!, and I mean <blink>THIS!!!!</blink> much preformance! (Intel pulls wildly insane numbers out of an orifice of your choice).
    ...and the monster thing will ship in 1998.

    Apparently, all the CPU makers sat down and discussed this, and agreed that "They may be last right now, but they have piles of cash. They could do this. They really could."

    So, what did the competiton do?

    • Alpha tried to stay agressive, but didn't sell enough, so they tanked. Bought by Compaq, then HP then sweet nothingness (see HP).
    • SGI and MIPS didn't know what to do. They made some noises about shifting to the Itanium... Maybe. While still developing the MIPS... Just a little. A very little. Now, as Netcraft confirms, SGI is dying. :-)
    • HP promptly shat their pants, threw their PA-RISC processor platform (which was third fastest in the world at the time) out the window and partnered with Intel, making plans to replace all HP/UX PA-RISC machines with Itaniums. ...which is what they have been doing for some time now, and loosing customers by the droves for it.
      Because of aquisitions, they also happened to be saddled with the best processor ever made, the Alpha.
      Stick with dying Intel... Develop best processor. Hmm...
      Well, you all know where HP is going.
    • Sun, I'm sad to say, didn't ruin the Sparc platform because of Itanium, but just by being their usual ineffectual self.
    • The PPC concertium tried to press on, and did quite good. Motorola was to obsessed with embedded chips, but even now, I personally think IBM's "G5"s are very good, and believe they have it in them to produce several new generations of kick-ass chips.

    And then what happend?

    Intel didn't deliver... and didn't deliver... and didn't deliver some more.

    Year after year passes...

    When the Itanium was finally delivered, it was obvious that every other platform could have kept up, if they would just have kept developing their processors!

    But they didn't and now they sleep with the fishes.

    Conclusion: By making their Itanium announcement, Intel slew four out five serious competitor. It doesn't relly matter if the Itanium sucks. In fact, the Itanium would be Intels greatest success even if they had never delivered it.

    --

    I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.

  34. Actually, it's still expensive by RelliK · · Score: 4, Informative

    Out of curiosity, I just checked itanic prices at dell. The cheapest configuration for a single (dual capable) 1.5GHz itanic with 2GB RAM and 36GB SCSI HD is over $17K. For comparison, a similarly configured 3.6GHz Xeon (also dual capable, 2GB RAM) is just over 5K.

    The article poster is simply trolling. Where the fuck can you get an itanic for $2000? The cpu *alone* costs that much! The article that the moron linked to confirms this: "The 1.4GHz Itanium 2 comes out Monday for $1,172 in 1,000-unit quantities. A 1.6GHz version comes out in May for $2,408 in similar quantities." (last paragraph)

    Need I give any more reasons for why it's not popular?

    --
    ___
    If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
  35. Wrong question by redelm · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Itanium gets _exactly_ the respect it is due. People pay as much attention as they want. Your question really should be phrased: "Why doesn't Itamium get the respect I think it's due?"

    That question answers itself: You think differently from most people. Highly specialized, hand optimized massively parallel predictable crunching seems to matter to you. It doesn't to most people. You're in a minority. Get used to it.

    BTW, i860 and Alpha suffered from basically the same problem.

  36. Hey, I work with Itaniums. by dlapine · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I have a nice cluster with ~1800 Itanium II's. It's fast, the CPU's stable, and it runs on Linux. I have a lot of hands-on experience with it.

    A couple of points that seem to have been missed when looking at why the itanium less widespread:

    • each CPU is quite large, having a square surface area for the unit about 2" x 5" and it's about 2" high
    • That area includes a voltage regulater and the passive cooling fans
    • It doesn't include any of the necessary active cooling
    If you add these physical factors to the points already made about heat, power and EFI bios, it's obvious to say that Itanium won't run in your mini-ATX destop or laptop. This isn't a slam on the design, as it was never designed to run in those form factors, but it's hard to see how any cpu today is going to have a wide use if it isn't available for dual use for destop and servers. Once you eliminate the desktop market, (and I'm going to lump the workstation market in with the servers) the number of places you can sell these processors drops considerably.

    Once you start adding in the lack of Windows support for itanium, the strides that the 86_64 architechture has made in capability, and the low numbers of current adopters, it's not looking like Itanium will ever gain widespread acceptance.

    --
    The Internet has no garbage collection
  37. Why It's Not For Me... by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Having an affordable chip one step above a Xeon or Opteron in floating-point performance would not be such a bad thing for gaming enthusiasts (or 3D artists).

    Why this chip is not for me are two reasons:

    1: I'm not buying one before the software is ported to it -- and at a comparable price to its PC equivalent!
    2: It may be a step above an Opteron for floating point, but is it still that step about a dual processor Opteron that I can buy today for less money than a mono-processor Itantium?

    As for the "Itanic" jokes (all of which are way off-base, since heat output of any H.M.S. Itanic would melt any iceberg long before it could do any damage), blame The Register. I saw them use the term long before anyone else.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  38. Simple by bored · · Score: 4, Informative

    Your quoting FP performance. The "integer" (aka general purpose) performance isn't nearly as competitive. This is because its a static VLIW machine, and its hard to write a good VLIW compiler. Writing fast FP code is simpler. Then there is the fact that the Itanic is 3x the hardware of the machines your comparing it to. Bigger caches, and all that. Your misunderstanding of clock rate is also simplistic. In order to get the Itanic faster they would have to create a longer pipeline, this would more than likely decrease the IPC and keep the processor from scaling lineraly.

    Basically it was pointless. we don't need yet another processor targeted into the same market the POWER64/SPARC64/PARISC and now the X86-64 etc are in.
    The whole arch is a mess in my opinion its accually probably worse than the x86, this is evident in how long it took to get the thing out the door. For a processor based on the idea that superscaler wasn't easy and wouldn't perform its beginning to look like the itanic is accually in that boat. Its a dead arch, there are orders of magnitude more x86-64 machines out there even though the itanic had a two year lead. Why should I use itanic when there is a larger software base for PPC/POWER and its multivendor?
    POWER is cheaper,faster and more mature and it can barely compete with x86 in the desktop area. ARM has pretty much taken over the smaller chores (cellphones, PDA's MP3 players etc..) and smaller chips like the 8051 clones sit below that.

    Give it up, it was stupid, Intel was wrong. My opionion is that itanic was a marking plan to lock up the processor market. If we were all forced to run itaniums back in 96-98 then we would all be buying intel chips for everything. Instead intel had to release the P-Pro to keep ahead of Cyrix/AMD, only they never got far enough ahead to kill AMD to release the pressure and transition everyone to Itanic, where theyhold all kinds of patents and copyrights on the instruction set. Plus they couldn't make the thing work and it slipped for 5 years.

  39. It doesn't deserve much respect by turgid · · Score: 3, Informative
    For about the millionth time:

    itanium (itanic) is a poor design for anything other than numbercrunching. It is a relic of theoretical supercomputer designs that were popular in the late 1970s. itanic shines on floating-point benchmarks, and is mediocre at best on everything else.

    Since the late 1970s, we have had RISC and then superscalar RISC, some now with elements of VLIW. This provides better real-world (general-purpose) performance using substantially less power and fewer transistors than itanic.

    Modern RISC processors (including x86 which are RISC internally) can reschedule execution of instructions dynamically (i.e. at run time). itanic can not. It relies on the compiler to schdule the code. It is only possible to schedule code well at compile time for very well-defined problem sets i.e. floating-point maths intensive programs like numerical simulations. NASA currently owns 5% of the world's itanic processors (in a single machine).

    itanic was intel's attempt to kill the 64-bit RISC market, putting all of its competitors out of business. Like all great megalomaniacal plans, it has failed. It was a marketing-driven processor, and a failure.

    It can't compete with clunky old UltraSPARC IV on server-oriented workloads. Even that market, which isn't big enough to sustain Sun and its processors, is orders of magnitude bigger than the market in which itanic has any relevance.

    For big servers nowadays, you have a choice between Opteron and POWER.

    In science and engineering, you're often better with something like Opteron, POWER or something fancy from Cray, NEC or Fujitsu. itanic runs hot and consumes too much electricity.

    Has anyone ever seen one? I haven't. There was one at a show once on the Red Hat stand, but they wouldn't let me performance test it... and they wouldn't even let me see it because it had over-heated.

    itanic is about the most expensive turkey in computing history.

    1. Re:It doesn't deserve much respect by damicha · · Score: 3, Interesting
      just a little detail from a purist assembler coder:
      in real supercomputing you do not want your processor to 'auto-schedule' or rearrange your code.


      in the end, real special code is still hand oprimized, since no compiler nor any built-in rescheduling algorithms can actually know what I really want to achieve.


      Maybe I just want to accept the half ready value because I don't care for part of it.


      Maybe I want to put one instruction way ahead to prime a set of registers for what is coming.



      A processor which is always auto-scheduling can achieve only performance within the foresight that the rescheduling design put into it. But not for my very special algorithm for just this one dumb equation I want to solve.


      It is not a 'fail' criterion for a processor to strictly adhere to what I tell it, and thus provide an exactly reproduceable solution path each time.


      The result of this automatic rescheduling is that execution times in the end become non deterministic. In some cases you just want to avoid that.


      The scope is for sure not gaming, but hand optimized supercomputer grade code: check the compiler's result over and manually squeeze clock cycles out by doing things that seem to put cycles in, but reward in the end because one 'senseless' instruction may just have served to prime a cache o, register file, or vector set with new content for the next run, just in time when the pipe runs empty.

      Curious why the DecAlpha does not appear in these posts....