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Spyware Removal: Drop PC in Dumpster
morganx writes "The New York Times is reporting that some users prefer throwing out their PCs and buying new ones to actually removing their spyware. Does this mean lots of free hardware for the dumpster-divers among us?"
It just boggles the mind that people would throw out a Windows machine and then replace it with another! Windows machine which is immediately susceptible and commonly infected within twenty minutes or so of being re-connected to the Internet. This happens often even before you have time to install updates. The old fool me once, fool me twice adage comes to mind.
:-) Interestingly in the linked article, Dr. Wong does replace her HP system with a Powerbook. This has been our experience as well. We have replaced most of our Windows based systems with Macs running OS X leaving our Windows systems headless and sitting behind a Macintosh and a firewall with respect to the Internet. For grad student systems, giving them a Mac is the best possible solution. They can download all the software they want, surf the web and write their email all on the same system they use for their data analysis without worry and I'm not getting calls or visits to my office saying "Ummmmmmm. I think my system is infected" Time devoted to troubleshooting has gone to essentially nothing. Additionally, the last meeting I had down in our computer science department revealed that a good portion of the faculty were also switching from Windows/Linux/SGI to OS X. That was encouraging for a whole lot of reasons.
The smarter move would be to migrate to a system that is less affected by worms/virus/security issues. For the vast majority, I would think that system would be OS X. But hey, that's just me. If your time is that valuable that you would simply replace your system rather than wiping it and reinstalling the OS, you think that you would either be smart enough to think different. Of course clicking on the referenced article makes you sit through an ad for Dell unless you dismiss the ad, so what does that mean?
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And I emailed the "editor" telling them it was a dupe a good 10 minutes before it went live.
Hello? [thump thump thump] Is this mic on? Come in, Rangoon...
I think it's pretty damn difficult. As a coder and techie, I cannot figure out how to install Windows XP on my only computer capable of running it. Windows just blue-screens while trying to format the hard drive. I assume it needs drivers for my SATA chipset, since my computer is newer than XP SP2, but my PC doesn't have a floppy drive, space for a floppy drive, or a power cable for a floppy drive. I'm tempted to read up on what kind of power a floppy takes and wire a floppy drive up to an external power source and connect it to the fdc (mobo supports the floppy, power supply doesn't). Oh, and Windows will not treat my usb floppy drive as an A: drive during the install, which is the only place where it will accept drivers from.
Ordinary people getting frustrated is one thing. They lack the right skills. A PhD in computer science is a whole other question.
If it takes 4 hours to totally clean off an severely infested PC, then they might as well get a new PC. If it only takes me two hours, then they're halfway to a new PC. Hmmmm...
Suppose the hard drive fails, and (like a client) they haven't done a backup in a year. Suppose the PC is a 3 year old PIII PC. New hard drive: $60. Time to install Windows ME (or whatever) with all the drivers: at least an hour, but probably two. Cost: around $150 or a little more for a 3 year old PC. (Add more for software installation and network setup, and I do.) Again, that's halfway to a modern PC that is much faster, has a warranty, and has XP preloaded.
Not that I wind up going hungry when the client gets a new PC: there's still networking, data transfer, and software installation and setup that needs to get done. But the cost of new PCs has really changed the cost-benefit of fixing versus replacing.
Of coruse, the best part is when the client says, "Oh, and just take away that old, 'broken' PC. It is of no use to me now." Away it goes with me, because my time is free to me...
And don't forget, my rates are CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP compared to visits from The Geek Squad. If a consumer has to go through them, then the math in favor of a new PC gets even stronger...
I can't say I'm wild about this situation, but at least you can see why we're here at it.
You want people to return their PCs to factory defaults so that their PCs just get infected again while you takes hours to download all your Windows security patches? Not bloody likely. Are you being serious, or do you work for a spyware company?
It's far simpler to buy a new PC that has a year or two's worth of security patches already in place -- less for you to download. My uncle has already replaced one PC because of spyware. He's on a dial-up connection. He's not going to sit for hours upon hours so his old PC can reinstall security patches.
More likely, during the text mode "start a windows xp install" screens, it doesn't even have USB support loaded.
Probably the only real fix for this person's problem is to figure out if the SATA drivers can be slipstreamed onto the windows xp sp2 disc (along with all the other fixes since then, since God knows it's going to need them).
As a memeber of the Geek Squad, I must say you make some interesting points. Mostof our business is removing spyware and viruses from machines, which, most of the time, is pretty easy. It does take us a long time though (running a lot of scans, and testing the PC to make sure it's ok). Generally, at our Best Buy store anyway, you can expect to pay $59 for a diagnostic (which basically includes runing memtest86, some DFT, Lucifer, making sure your optical drives operate, and scanning for spyware and viruses), plus $79 for "OS service" (spyware & virus removal, a repair install if necessary + removal). Not really that bad of a deal for the average user really, who really wants his or her machine back, "exactly" how it was "before". We try to tack on NAV2005 or NIS2005 ($49.99 + $10 install/update, $59.99 + $10 install/update, respectively) and Webroot SpySweeper ($29.99 + $10 install + update). As absurd as it sounds, a lot of customers believe they can not install software, and trust us to do so. The prices for in-home worst is a bit higher of course, but brining your machine to a Best Buy or GS store isn't such a bad idea to most customers. And believe me, I recommend plenty of customers just buy a new machine (cost exceeds value).
We are all Gods unwanted children. Did you ever consider he may hate you too?
Its not because people want to pay for a new PC. People will get spyware and not understanding how a computer works, they will think its broken. Unless they have kind geek friend to help them out they are pretty much screwed. ( ever tried calling in your computer manufacturer about spyware? )
I know alot of people who will just throw it away, and be done with computers altogether (which may be why home PC business is doing so bad.
I think that might be the editors' intention- to let people that missed an article the first time around have a shot at reading and commenting on it. Now, perhaps if they would post and LET PEOPLE KNOW that that was their intention, repeat articles wouldn't get flooded by 100 "It's a dupe" posts.
Slashdot public opinion seems to be moving a bit in favor of the "It's a dupe!" crowd...Not that they're the majority, but where I saw -1 Redundant on all of the "dupe" posts a few months back, I'm seeing not only positive, but +4 and +5 moderations. If the editors are posting repeats with a plan in mind, they should say something, because it's obvious that a lot of people are regarding it as a problem.
They have several... They are called "Subscribers". I have done by job multiple times and been thanked by the editors via e-mail at least a handful of times... Yet there have been just as many (if not more) times that I have submitted the story as being duped and it has been ignored.
:)
So, we are paying to do their jobs *and* we are being ignored.
It's almost as good as being a Union employee!
Some computers need ME due to applications and/or device drivers that only run under 9X/ME. I used to have one. The manufacturer refused to release any softwafe updates that would allow it to work properly with Windows 2000 or Windows XP. They suggested that I buy a new computer.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I know what you mean. I work in the field, too.
But what most people don't realize is how much work they'll have if they get a new PC.
Consider all the things that you've accumulated on your system and how much you've tweaked it -- settings, bookmarks, documents, serial keys, music, etc. You've had it for at least a year. And in all that time, you've done a lot with their PC. Do they know how to get all those settings and data to the new PC?
Secondly, what about software? Most customers lose their original discs. Some systems don't even come with discs. Are they going to re-purchase everything? It's illegal to install an OEM Office onto a new PC. Will they buy a new Office? (No, they probably won't, but it's something you SHOULD bring up.)
Third, there's hardware changes. What have they added? They will have to move that to the new PC, if it will work! (If the new system, for instance, had 768MB RAM and the new system uses a different type of RAM.)
Fourth, what are they really getting with that system? There's a chance that the $199.99 powerhouse is anything but and may actually be SLOWER than what they have now!
Finally, there's preventing this from happening again. Do they know how?
They usually realize at this point that they're going to need help anyway. Since they can't perform these tasks, that means they're going to have to hire someone to do it. Suddenly a $199.99 PC is starting to look unrealistic.
Of course, my OPINION is that it's better to repair than replace. I'm sure someone more clever can offer valid contrary arguments. I think replacement-as-policy (and I also put "rebuilds" under this category) is ultimately a longer road. I suggest it only if the new system is going to be much better out of the box.
If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
And how the hell do the "unreplacable" programs get transferred from their old spyware-infested piece of crap to their new $299 piece of crap eMachine?
The same problem still exists.
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
Hardware is cheap, but as we all know most of the margin from these sales goes to microsoft. Talk about unfair. The people responsible for the mess get the benefit.
The other thnig that bothers me is this constant reference to Apple's "3 per cent" market share. I swear the *majority* of computer users I see outside corporate settings are on macs; this includes a significant sampiling of 1) open sourcerers 2) cafe denizens 3) academics and 4) self-employed/very small business people. So what gives?
Well, Apples last a long time. Suppose Apples last 3 times as long as PCs. (On the basis of this story, the ratio is probably increasing.) Then the actual market share in computer-months is about 9%, not 3%. Now suppose that Apple people actually LIKE their computers, and spend three times as much time with them. Then the user share is about 27%. About a quarter of the actual minutes people spend with computers would be with Macs. Accounting for hidebound corporations and government agencies this looks more like real life to me.
mt
(Use the Preview Button! Check those URLs! Check those fucking dupes!!! MORONS!!!)
Important Stuff
# Try to put *NEW* stories on the system instead of fucking dupes!!! MORONS!!!
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"A typical college kid who's working as a techie in a computer store is going to expect about $20/hr for their time."
Trust me. They're not going to get it.
The bulk of the cost to have the shop work on your computer generally isn't going towards the help.*
*The exception is the more experienced, and those with specialized knowledge.
I tell my customers after a 15min. glance (free of charge), that they have 2 options:
:)
:)
1) I clean it there (provided they have dsl), and it will take anywhere from 2-6 hours and after that it may still require a 2hr. re-install of the OS.
OR
2) I take it to my shop (where I can work on it and others and play Quake), and charge them a 2hrs. labor flat fee.
Most choose 1, i don't know why I always recommend 2, because, hey, I love my Quake...
When the bill is in the range that they could have gotten a new computer, they realize their mistake. However, I do set them up with a spyware blocker, MS' Official, Firefox for browsing (with a 5 minute WOW tutorial), and recommend them switching to Thunderbird for email, and recommend they purchase Norton for Anti-Virus (or update).
(And yes, for most of them IE is their ISP... not kidding, 'I pay SBC, but Internet Explorer is my ISP...right?').
I do what the customer asks, and when I point out that they are asking for the incorrect thing, they get indignant and demand their ignorance! So I provide them with that for which they ask.
I have also had some who say 'Can't I just get a new computer and give this one to the kids?', why yes... or you could just have me get your data backed up, restore the os, and you can have it all back good as new for 2 hrs. labor... "NO, I want a new one", and so it goes.
I got a free 1ghz. laptop that way, customer got angry said get my data off it and throw it in the trash. Passed my K6-500 compaq Lappy to my son,(Mepis 3.3.1), running good, and I get the new trash
Saving data costs money and most people want that done even though they do not/will not do it before they have problems...
What part of,"An emergency on your part does not constitute one on mine" do you not understand?
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
duh!
;)
He's saying that there is no small floppy plugs coming out of the power supply.
The only elegant solution is to have one of those y-plug converters that you can cannibalize out of other computers but you can't buy anywhere.
In other words, Windows is not ready for the desktop because it cannot be installed on modern hardware without complicated techie slip streaming techniques, which require a working computer in the first place
See nLite, a method of customising Windows installers, that among other things lets you add your own drivers to the CD image. (You will need to prepare this on a PC running 2k or XP though.) There's a forum if you have any problems.
Until all PCs in business offices have USB ports, the sneaker net will run on floppies. It is interesting how fast folks take to the USB jump drives. They are an easy analog for a floppy drive in peoples minds, they understand them because they understand floppies. Of course unless you are running 98 wich brings us back to floppies.
I believe the article misrepresents the options available to users.
Someone who works in the internet industry and who holds a Ph.D. in computer science thought it "cheaper and faster" to buy another new PC running Windows. A director of a internet-related research group considers this a "rational response." Followed by a list of statistics related to Windows viruses, ad- and mal-ware. Then a professor of computer science at Yale, with another story of another infected Windows machine.
Then a few paragraphs about Microsoft releasing software to combat the problem, noting 800 _million_ uses of the software this year alone, but then not offering any connection to how this affected the personal stories mentioned in the article. Not at all, I would guess, but then this isn't addressed.
Then a story of a woman, a physician, solved her problem by buying a computer that doesn't run Windows. The case selected for this inclusion used nearly the most expensive possible option available, a top-end Macintosh laptop at $3K. The final two stories listed a stockbroker who is at "wits' [sic] end" and considering a new Windows-based PC purchase, and a bank manager who was the only one to clean their own computer of the offending software, albeit via a 15+ hour process of self-education and work.
So what does a reader of this story who doesn't know that much about computers (ie, most users) learn? That very smart, very well-educated people -- even those that are computer professionals, are throwing their old Windows computers out and buying new ones because it's just too complicated or troublesome to fix the old ones. This behavior isn't questioned, but bolstered by the declaration of an important-sounding research group that claims this is a "rational response." And even if you do replace your Windows computer, it'll get infected all over again.
The one person who buys something else other than Windows has to pay $3000 for it. The other person who teaches themselves to remove the infection and hopefully combat it successfully in the future must go through hours of self-teaching and work.
However, the fact that this virus, mal- and ad-ware epidemic only exists on Windows is not discussed. Linux is not discussed. That the woman who bought a $3000 Macintosh could have bought a $500 Macintosh that would have offered her the same safety is not discussed. Hell, even the option of inserting a restore CD and returning the computer back to the way it was delivered to the owner is not discussed.
These are all valid options. I'm not a Ph.D., a physician, or member of a research firm so maybe my opinions don't mean as much. I'm not an employee of a Windows-based PC manufacturer (I will mention though that I the ad that I had to click through to read this article was for Dell). But I use a Macintosh, and have used them exclusively for the past 10+ years, and have never had a single infestation. Ever. So what do I know.
Oh yeah, that I have options. Successful, inexpensive options that were completely overlooked in this article. And after reading the article, if I didn't know any better (and ran Windows), I'd be far more likely to buy a new computer to replace my old infected PC. Maybe even with a new... umm... Dell?