Grandma Sues Over Hot Coffee Mod

Bond_James writes "Ars Technica is reporting that an 85-year old New York woman has filed a civil suit against Rockstar Games and Take-Two Interactive. She alleges that the defendants 'engaged in misleading and deceptive practices in packaging and selling' the game, which she purchased for her 14-year old grandson. This will be interesting, and scary, to watch unfold in the courtrooms. Will the M (17+) rating of the game save Rockstar?"

Comments

Wow, people are fools

[Altizar]

The story says she bought the game in 2004, that means it was the ps2 version. The only way to accees the mod for that version is if you have a modchip and manualy modify the files (or so every other story says). Anyway is it not her fault for buying a 14 year old a game desgined for 17+.

Re:Wow, people are fools

[Iriel]

From what I read, it doesn't mention if this woman's grandson even accessed the Hot Coffee game anyway. If that's true, then she's just suing R* because 'it's there' and that offends her.

Not only that, but it looks like she's filing the suit on her behalf as well as that of everyone deceived into buying a game that should have been rating AO. If she's suing on behalf of a group, shouldn't this be a class action suit? If not, she better not get much out of it.

Go grandma, go and represent everyone who bought this game for kids under 17 without recognizing that the game is pretty damned offensive without the mod.

Re:Wow, people are fools

[garett_spencley]

I'm looking at the package for my PC version of SA right now.

On the back it describes the reasons for being rated Mature. Here they are.

1. Blood and Gore
2. Intense Violence.
3. Strong Language.
4. Strong Sexual Content
5. Use Of Drugs.

With that said I'm still shocked as to why people are so shocked about there being sexual content in the game when the god damned fucking label says there's STRONG SEXUAL CONTENT to begin with! Nevermind the violence.

Re:Wow, people are fools

[over_exposed]

It doesn't matter... It's rated for players of 17 years of age and older. Plain an simple. She purchased it for her 14-year-old grandson. Plain. And. Simple. It's not the fault of Rockstar, Wal-Mart, the ESRB, Toys-R-Us, Hillary Clinton, the game modders, the mod-chip manufacturer, the kid down the street that installed the mod-chip or any other scapegoat she can think of. The only problem here is that Grandma is contributing to the deliquency of a minor, she or her grandson broke the DMCA by installing the mod chip, and the kid's parents still let him play at Grandma's house.

Seriously...

Re:Wow, people are fools

[Nos.]

Here's a post I made on K5 yesterday:

So I had a look at ESRB's site. GTA: San Adreas was previously (I believe) rated M. By ESRB standards, that means that they suggest this content it fine for anyone 17 years or older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language.. From what I've heard, the "Hot Coffee" scene show no nudity. It does show a brief scene of "humping" but clothes are on. To me, this fits within sexual content. Of course, up here in Canada, I've seen worse things on TV during prime time, though we do tend to be a little more liberal with sex and language on TV then our neighbours to the south.

Now, they've bumped up the rating to AO. Which is okay for people 18 and over. I guess in those 12 months we're able to prepare ourselves to see what wouldn't even be considered soft porn. ESRB describes AO as ...may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity. So, a game centering on criminal activites that involve assinations, killing police, mugging people, hookers, etc. with lots of violence, a complete disregard for what most of us consider moral behvior, is much worse for our kids when it involves dry humping.

As other posters have mentioned, this is probably a marketing ploy by Rockstar. If this investigation happens, and they manage to prove that management knew about it, slap a fine on them and move on. Lets face it, if your kids are up watching any kind of cable TV when you're not around, they've seen worse than this. If they surf the net when you're not around, they've seen worse than this. Accoring to various sources, most kids are losing their virginty by 16. So, if you're worried that this game was rated 17+, realize that your child has probably done more sexually than this game shows, well before they're at an age where the ESRB thinks they're mature enough to see it.

Re:Wow, people are fools

[NanoGator]

"With that said I'm still shocked as to why people are so shocked about there being sexual content in the game when the god damned fucking label says there's STRONG SEXUAL CONTENT to begin with! Nevermind the violence."

That's simple to explain: Teens are getting pregnant all the time. For that reason, it's a higher priority than violence. Parents think the way to prevent this is to pretend sex doesn't exist.

I don't think it's shocking at all. Then again, at my 10 year high school reunion, I'm going to reunite with a number of people that have 12 year old kids.

Re:Wow, people are fools

[Reapy]

I don't get it. I never will. It has nothing to do with rockstar and the game and everything to do with blowing an issue out of proportion and scapegoating rockstar.

Will no one get it straight in their stupid heads that this is only accessable by moding the game? There is no button sequence to press to unlock it, there are no in game mechanics to access it. You have to go in and modify the data in the game to access it.

This is the equivalent of downloading and playing modified level for half life that has porn on the wall.

The argument that the content was on the disk is rediculous. Who cares if it was on the disk? If you wanted to find it by looking at the disk contents, the worst you probably find would be a streched out uv map of a nude skin.

I just don't understand why millions of dollars need to be spent to discover that it's easier to cut content by removing access to it then destroying all the assets?

Rockstar provided no way shape or form for a game user to access this content. The only way to do such is to modify the game. MODIFY THE GAME!! Modifying the code is the same as adding in the nudity. It is the same as taking parts of various assets and construcing "lewd" pictures with it.

God damn, I hate people sometimes. I hate them so much. And this isn't even launching into the whole hypocritical outlook on violence vs sex in our rating schemes.

Re:Wow, people are fools

[NanoGator]

"Teens get murdered, too, and that's a lot more final." .. and far less frequent than teen pregnancy.

Instead of arguing with me, go ask a bunch of parents of teenagers or pre-teens which they think is more likely to happen: Pregnancy or murder.

I honestly don't understand why this concept is so alien to everybody here. Is it because you all think I'm writing that to say they're right? Well, I can put that fear to rest: No, I'm not saying they're right. I'm merely explaining why somebody would prioritize sexual conduct on TV over violence. I'm sorry that these people are living in a world of perception instead of a world of fact, but there's nothing I can do about it.

Frankly, though, I think you all should be listening to what I'm saying, here. (in case it's a little fuzzy, I've brought this up before and it was mindlessly shot down there, too.) You guys want want these people to chill before resorting to extremism, right? How are you going to do that if you're going to call them 'fools' instead of trying to understand where they're coming from?

Honestly, guys. I shouldn't have to put up my dukes every time I say something that's not quite in line with public opinion.

Re:Wow, people are fools

[NanoGator]

"If you asked me, I would say murder. I'm a nerd, so there's less chance of me having sex, but a higher chance that I piss the wrong person off being a smart ass and get killed for it."

Alternatively, in my years in high school, there was never any death. There were PLENTY of pregancies, though.

Maybe we come from different places. I doubt that's the diff, though. Nearly every teenager pursues sex. Frankly, I think you need to take a good hard look at why you chose the phrase "less chance of having sex". That implies that your lack of sex (apologies, not intending to sound insulting. ) wasn't the result of a lack of trying or at least really really wanting. Would I be correct in assuming your parents didn't really care much for protecting you from 'sexual content'?

This line says it all.

[TripMaster Monkey]

From TFA

Grandma bought the game for her grandson. Her 14-year old grandson.

Sorry, Grandma, but you don't have a case, although the state may have a case against you for Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor...

Re:This line says it all.

[TripMaster Monkey]

If a parent attends an R-rated movie with their child, are they "contributing to deliquency?"

While the case can be made that taking a child to a R-rated movie is indeed contributing to delinquency, I'm going to focus instead on the second part of your statement:
Because it's exactly the same circumstance.

Wrong. Unless Grandma sits next to the child during every second of gameplay, sharing in the experience with him, it is not even remotely the same circumstance. The situation would be closer to Grandma getting the kid inside a theater where an R-rated movie is playing, and then leaving him to his own devices.

Next time, think through your analogy before you post, please.

The first of many

[Shimdaddy]

Let this be the first of many comments to say that this is officially retarded. To buy a game that is rated for someone older than your child and then sue because content that is not accessible without serious binary editing is found is ridiculous. If your 14 year old wants cartoon sex, grandma, he can search for Hentai on google and find images far more erotic than in GTA.

Stupid.

[Sylver Dragon]

So, Granny fails to notice the M(17+) rating. Ok, it's not very prominent or well know. Then she completly ignores the box art, which I guess she could have overlooked on account of the way a lot of art is done these days. Finally, she didn't pick up on the fact that the game is named after a rather major felony. How oblivious do you have to be to buy this game for a 14 year old kid? Not to mention that she has managed to completly miss all of the noise made about the last installment. I'm sorry but she, and all of her offspring need to be scraped out of the gene pool as too stupid to breed.
Yes, she's an old granny, and may not get out much, but she has the ability to get a lawyer and sue, so please don't give me the "she's an old confused lady" bit. If she is able to track down a lawyer and start a lawsuit over this, she should have been capable of figuring out that this game may not have been appropriate for her grandson.

The solution

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Just package the game in a set of styrofoam titties, or require that stores set up their displays, the customer has to reach through the vagina hole of a big latex pussy with a throbbing red clit to grab a box.

That ought to make it clear to even the most shriveled up grandma that this game is not for children, and you're fucking responsible for what you buy, not anyone else.

Think of the children!

[jon787]

Imagine the outrage if she had purchased her son the August 2005 issue of National Geographic Magazine. There is a photo of a nude woman in it! We must start checking IDs on magazine purchases and institute a rating system at once!

"Whaaa, whaaa whaaa..."

[pclminion]

"I thought my little grandson would only be partaking in the wholesome activities of running over dogs, raping prostitutes, murdering police officers, and slinging crack cocaine to street whores. But instead his precious little mind has been corrupted by THE EVILS OF CONSENSUAL SEX!"

Fuck you, grandma. You are, plain and simply, an idiot.

More interesting...

[SolarCanine]

...will be:

(a) will Rockstar report her to the local Dept of Social Services for providing the game to the 14 year old,

(b) will Rockstar turn around, if this lawsuit actually proceeds, and sue the modders for violating EULAs, and

(c) will Rockstar bite the bullet and start refusing to submit their games voluntarily to the ESRB for rating at all?

As far as I'm concerned, the hype surrounding this, the Congressional involvement, and the lack of parental responsibility in the equation are far more criminal than anything that Rockstar has done.

She's culpable

[Quarters]

I wrote about this on my blog yesterday. Here are the important bits

She's suing not only for herself, but for "everyone else who purchased the game." Since I purchased it I am someone she thinks she is protecting. So let me talk to Ms. Florence Cohen of NY directly for a second...

Hey, Flo, I don't need your protection. I can read the labels on the box just fine by myself.

Yes, GTA:SA is a mature game. That's why it was sold with an ESRB rating of "M" (now "AO" for adults only). "M" games are sales limited to people who are seventeen years of age or older. Rockstar, Take Two, the reseller, and the clerk at the store did nothing wrong by selling Ms. Cohen GTA:SA. That is, unless she is only sixteen yet has managed to have two generations of Cohens come after her. Her mistake was her own. She gave an "M" title to a person under the age of seventeen. If the government wants laws to punish clerks who sell titles to people outside of the posted age ranges shouldn't there also be punishments for people who traffic these games to children? She, either intentionally or not, was corrupting her grandson by giving him a game that the game industry reviewed, rated, and clearly labeled as not suitable for him.

Outside of Ms. Cohen no one is at fault here. The voluntary rating worked, the box was clearly labeled with the restriction, and the store didn't sell the game to anyone under the proper age.

I'll close by suggesting a new title for the article, "Ignorant Grandmother who bought 'Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas' without reading the label is suing the manufacturer instead of taking responsibility for her mistake".

Again?

[MarkGriz]

Again with the grandma, and the hot coffee, and the lawsuits....

When will they learn to stay away from hot coffee.

Jay Leno

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Leno had a joke about this last night: "What the Hell was a grandma doing buying GTA for her kid anyway? Was the store out of beer and BB guns?"

It's a valid point: GTA is saturated with violence of some of the most offensive kind, a little sex should be the least of a parent or grand parent's worries, right? It's OK to grease police and mobsters, steal cars and blow things up, pick up hookers, but sex, now that's going too far?

Family Services

[Bios_Hakr]

First off, Rockstar should report her and the children's parents to family services for neglect.

Next, they should sue the kid and his parents. They could claim that he modified the ROT-26 protected binary and used the product in a manner not in accordance with the EULA.

Sue the grandma also. She bought the game and then gave it to someone else. I'm pretty sure the EULA only gives the purchacer the right to use the product.

They should probably sue Jack Thompson for public disclosure of a unaddressed security flaw. Jack should have sent a private memo to Rockstar and given them time to revove the flaw.

Then they should sue Mattell. Your Rockstar should claim they bought a barbie doll and a ken doll for their kids. The kids were latter seen playing with the dolls having simulated sex.

Then sue Lego. You can put thoes things into some funny positions making it look like simulated sex.

Sue the Catholic church for including "Song of Solomon" in the Bible. Sue the Protestants while you are at it.

They should Sue Bill Clinton for having simulated sex in the Oval Office.

Sue Hillary for not divorcing her cheating, lying husband. Women putting up with that shit degrades the American Family. Damn her for not setting a better example for our young women.

M (17+) and AO(18+)

[conigs]

Living in the US, I'm always amazed at ratings like this..... *Before I continue, yes I understand that basically the M rating is a suggestion while the AO rating is more of a rule not to sell to minors* We all know what the game involves... and apparently that's suitable if you're seventeen. But because there's a hidden minigame requiring a mod to unlock it that has explicit cartoon sex, it's no longer suitable for 17-year olds... not you have to wait a year before you understand that cartoon sex. I never quite understood that... just like I can walk into a car rental place at 24 and 11 months old and not be able to rent a car.... one month later, I'm considered old and wise enough to rent one. I know there has to be a limit at one point.... but not much happens between 17 and 18 (other than "officially" being considered an adult) that seems to warrant two different ratings. Incidentally, I'd also like to point out that NC17 rating for movies used to be X..... hmmm... so you can watch real people pretending to have sex on film at 17, but you're really not ready to watch polygons poorly representing people on your TV having sex... *didn't rtfa, hasn't played GTA (no interest), sick of the hype over this issue prevading over real issues in current events*

Re:Maybe I'm an asshole, but...

[shawb]

I don't know... this is a lawsuit over hot coffe. Companies should know by now to use extreme caution with anyhthing with that moniker.

This may actually be a GOOD lawsuit...

[telstar]

1. Grandma buys adult game for minor
2. Grandma sues industry
3. Court throws case out
4. Precedent is set and fewer people try to do the same

Don't get me wrong ... I think the woman is a total bitch trying to cash in on something that had nothing to do with her ... but here's hoping all she ends up with are steep legal fees as she wastes the court's time, and steps closer and closer to her coffin

15 Minutes of Infamy

[mabu]

This isn't about the video game. By now that should be obvious to most people.

This is about some opportunitstic, sleazebag lawyer and an 85-year-old incompetent parental figure trying to make a quick buck, or get their 15 minutes of attention.

The less we talk about this frivolous lawsuit and the losers involved, the better.

Disgusted

[Tachikoma]

Some people in this thread have the audacity to say that this is, in fact, grannies fault.
Clearly this is Take-two's fault and Rockstars, they are to blame for this. This is not something some one is scapegoating, this is ligit and they will loose to grandma.

Did you not read the article? Rock* was physically there, and they engaged in misleading and deceptive practices and coerced her into buying it. I believe she was actually held at knife point...
They used imtimidation, they threatened her life!! Besides, game ratings are not to be taken serious....they're more like suggestions as opposed to restrictions of age.
They really mean "hey, MAYBE you want to wait. ah screw it, BUY ME BUY ME BUY ME you'll win a car...

where was I going with this...

oh yeah its rockstars fault, not helpless granny. I've been saying this for so long, kids are innocent until corrupted by an EVIL corporation.
like microsoft ;)

I would like to take this time to announce my lawsuit against Rockstar (all the cool kids are suing them these days)
(ahem) Rockstar engaged in misleading and deceptive practices that led me to buying a soda at lunch today. I have since spilled that soda on my pants, and it grieved me so. I once saw a character in GTA:SA drink a beverage, which led me to my soda-purchasing ways. Cleary they are to blame. I want $85 million for damages, $14 for fun, and $7 million in grievances. We can settle out of court for a free copy of GTA:SA and beer money. PC version.

And I mean real beer money. No $12 for a 30 pack of 'stones. And certainly no fake money. oh yea cash for dry-cleaning.

Re:First the Politics of the situation, now this!

[leland242]

"MAN! This whole fiasco is bouncing around the topics here more than a superball! Alright, let's get a few things straight:"

Okay...

"You are the grandmother of a well rounded 14 year old son. He's getting angsty from puberty and general teenager stuff, but he ain't that bad a kid. His parents let him watch some R rated movies, and don't mind the music he listens to either. They are also pretty tolerant about the games he plays."

You assume a lot.

"So you know your grandson wants this game, and let's say that you know at the very least that it is pretty graphic, but IT DOESN'T CONTAIN ANYTHING HE HASN'T SEEN BEFORE! If he's watched R rated movies, he's probably familiar with the violence. If he listens to today's music, then the game's language ought to be no shock to him."

A 14 your old male, one who has the freedom to listen to and watch almost whatever he wants, has seen hard core porn. Period.

"THEN you find out that the company slipped in this mini-game that involves graphic/explicit sex, and you realize YOU were the one that bought it for him. Sure it requires using a cheat device and a cheat code, but with a little web surfing and owning said cheat device, it isn't too difficult to unlock if the effort is put into it."

That does not sound like a "mini-game". That sounds like unused code. There are a millions examples of these easter eggs - everything from cheat codes to "lost levels" and equipment. If you unlock it, then more power to you. But it is not what the developer had in mind for the final product.

"So whose fault was it? Was it the ratings board for not properly giving the game an AO rating, reserved for games with graphic sex?"

No. The game, as it was meant to be played, was rated M. AO is a misnomer unless the game shipped with the Hot Coffee Mod applied.

"So, now we have dear Flo here going to court with a lawyer who ISN'T Jack Thompson, and she, as of right now, can have a pretty good case against the company. They did NOT disclose the mini-game to the ratings board, and it went unmentioned until July when it spread like wildfire, and when something spreads that quickly, you know that it can be easily accessed by any tech savvy kid."

Why, exactly, would you disclose that buried in the code, inaccessable to normal users of the game, is this bit of code?

"1) Grandma has a case against Rockstar because they provided millions of discs to parents who did NOT want graphic sex placed before their kids. Violence and language, and sexual suggestiveness is one thing, but graphic sex is THE MOST TABOO thing possible in media. Movies, books, TV, and radio do not have graphic explicit sex material on them. Think about the last time you listened to a porn scene on the radio, watched full blown sex on TV (BY HUMANS!), read a graphically detailed sex scene in a book, and saw a full out sex scene in a movie that wasn't porn!"

Uh, dude, are you insane. Howard Stern, every morning, has some chick moaning away in some sex scene. Daytime soaps have many steamy moments, as do evening shows. Not "hard core", but neither is the sex in the Hot Coffee mod - which, I wonder, have you even seen? Books, aside from Harry Potter, have lots of sex in them. In fact, most of the books I read have some sex. Some is graphic, other is just incidental. It's really a non-issue. Not to mention, do you have any idea how much money "THE MOST TABOO" media makes each year? I don't have exact figures handy (and I'm not about to look it up at work) but I understand it makes more money than any other form of entertainment. Not exactly taboo.

"And I'm talking MORE than frontal nudity. I'm talking about the full monty!"

The male character in Hot Coffee is wearing pants and the female has no discernable genetalia.

"Chances are, she could win and Rockstar will have to pay back and accept all returned copies of the game. Going beyond that will be a tricky fight, but even refunding ALL THOSE GAMES can cost a HELUVA LOT OF MONE

Exactly.

[8086ed]

This is all fucking stupid. If I wanted to see naked people, I'd download some porn. I don't have the desire to watch pixels porking each other. It takes a lot more know-how to mod a game or install a patch than it does to get on Kazaa and download some hardcore stuff.

If this kid would mod his PS2 to watch the Hot Coffee game, I'd say he already has a couple gigs of porn on his computer. Who's gonna get sued for that?

I can't wait to get my Hot Coffee shirt tomorrow.