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Web Access Over Power Lines
anaesthetica writes "The CSMonitor is reporting that power companies may now be able to break into the internet provider market, giving consumers a third option, outside of telephone and cable companies. From the article, "Broadband over Power Lines (BPL), with investments from big-name companies including Google and IBM, is beginning to move beyond small trial projects to deploying systems for large communities." Earthlink may offer BPL as soon as next year. Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios."
Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios.
And anyone else who uses any kind of radio. BPL still has massive radio interference problems, fullstop. Every trial so far has resulted in cancellation of services because the interference ruins too many other things.
Once again it'll be announced, it'll be trialled, it'll fail. I said it almost every other time someone else comes up with this too good to be true notion.
Provided they take down the exisiting powerlines and replace them with high tension co-ax. It's not just Ham radios that this will irritate, its everyone. The FCC and its international counterparts have restrictions on EM waves not just because they interfere with communications, but because they interfere with everything from aeroplane and medical electronics to cell division.
Scared of flying, pointy things snce 1979!
The opposition, even with the offer of notching the offending frequencies, is that the notches that have been demonstrated don't do enough.
You could say it lessens the interference by 50% or so, and that's not enough because ANY increase in the "noise floor" (the background signal that exists on a frequency which a signal must overcome in order to be heard) makes it more difficult for ham radio operators to use the frequency spectrum that they are licensed to use.
One solution would be for ham radio operators to just increase the power they use. Unfortunately, most hams operate (on HF anyway) at their full power capacity. Also many hams enjoy the challenge of low-power communications of 5W or less (worldwide communications are possible on under 5W).
The principle of the thing is that why should a commercial venture be able to do the things that, so far, no one has been allowed to do: emit RF across such an immense spectrum of frequencies, including those for which others have what the FCC calls "primary" usage granted to them.
The ARRL has said that they do support a Motorola solution because it does not add any interference to the ham radio frequencies. So not all BPL is bad. Ham radio operators are opposed to those that are bad.
"Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios."
Of course. It's the ham operators that actually understand the potential for BPL to cause harmful RF interference. The rest of the world won't care until it affects them personally. Ignoring the advise of ham radio operators is like ignoring the advise of the bomb squad when there's a bomb in a subway. Ok, so it's not as drastic, but it's still quite silly.
My lame blog.
is a graph of the licensed frequencies that some hams think that the unlicensed BPL technology will pollute (blacked out).
Hams are fond of shortwave because it allows people to communicate around the globe (not only line-of-sight).
As an Amateur Radio Operator I think I may be able to answer this question.
Firstly, there are a fairly large number of licensed operators. Not everyone is active in the hobby, but it is the number of licensed operators that the ARRL (American Radio Relay League -- Amateur Radio's main 'club', so to speak) uses when confronting the FCC and other regulatory bodies (including Congress) about issues that are a concern to Amateur Radio.
Secondly, as previously reported on Slashdot (no, I cannot find the article at the moment) the BPL companies' attempts to "notch out" the part of the BPL signal that interferes with Amateur Radio transmissions have not been very effective.
Thirdly, while BPL is certainly a good idea in theory, and I for one would welcome our new BPL overlords if they can dispose with the interference on the Amateur Radio bands, there are still technical details to work out before it can be used harmoniously in conjunction with existing services, including Amateur Radio.
Remember, Amateur Radio serves a critical role during emergencies to provide communication when other means are not available. If those power lines go down there will be no interference, but what if they are still up and there is a major emergency? Also, many Amateur bands are close to other public service bands. Yes, I know that the police are using cell phones now, but unless there is something that allows the cell towers to give priority to the police phones over my phone they police may be unable to communicate in an emergency.
I know our local ambulance service uses radio. So does our fire service. BPL will interfere with them as well, though not to the same extent because they are shorter range.
A little interference is not such a big deal with shorter range communications like the local fire and ambulance, but when you are trying to push a signal across the country, that small amount of interference is a major issue.
I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this, but such is life. These are the main issues to the best of my understanding. Again, I would love to see BPL work. I live out in the boonies and I can't even get cable, never mind DSL.
Yes, the Amateur Radio community is in opposition to BPL, due to the high degree of RFI (radio frequency interference) that BPL puts out. The problem that not as many people are talking about is that this will also affect many fire/rescue/police radio frequencies, which occupy the same radio spectrum as the BPL systems interfere with. This could potentially cause severe problems in emergency situations. So no, it's not just a bunch of us HAMs whining about BPL "ruining our hobby". We also interact with emergency personnel in emergency situations, severe weather, natural disasters, and yes, even terrorist attacks.
It's a [______] thing...you wouldn't understand.
The article was light on the details of why the hams are opposed to this, except for the issue of whether or not it will interfere with their signals. If the BPL companies are offering to NOT interfere with the signal, why is there still opposition?
Because the current definition of "not interfering with" is based on fairly loose standards, because BPL noise could ruin the opportunity to use other parts of the RF spectrum in the future, but mainly because power-cabling is unshielded and currently so inefficient at broadband frequencies that they will initially have to use alot of signal, and radiation will be a given, regardless of what's promised.
Think of this as background noise (eg like your neighbour's air conditioner). It may be quiet, but its noise still prevents you from hearing the birds clearly, the breeze in the trees, the buzz of the bees, etc. BPL radiation will reduce our ability to detect faint RF signals. When the extraterrestrials finally get around to thanking us for the LP on Voyager, we won't be able to hear them.
On another note, not to be a dick, but how can a bunch of hams form a "major" opposition against the power companies, IBM, Google etc?
Well, that's the problem. Maybe we need a "sierra club" or "greenpeace" to act as watchdogs on our RF spectrum...
I do believe that BPL is probably inevitable, though... so, sometime in the future, when most of the power grid is adapted for this, and all new AC-powered devices have BPL filters built-in, then the BPL radiation should be less.
unless there is something that allows the cell towers to give priority to the police phones over my phone they police may be unable to communicate in an emergency.
In fact, that very point was recently demonstrated in London. From this article:
In the immediate aftermath, a statement from the U.K.'s largest network operator, Vodafone, said that an excessive number of calls had caused outages. The operator consequently set aside capacity for phone calls to emergency services.
"Following the major incident in London today, Vodafone London switches are at capacity (which is very rare), so we're having to go into 'access overload' procedures, which means freeing up a proportion of capacity across London to ensure the police and emergency services can communicate," the company said.
It's also more then just Amateur Radio and Police, Fire and Abulance radios that can be affected. You TV can be affected as well as AM/FM broadcast band. Has anyone here ever been living near a noisy (as in RF) powerline? Power companies are notorius for letting things get bad before the fix them. As long as the wire delivers power, they do not care if it spews RF all over the place. Notching the Ham band out will not be effective. The power company must not have heard of Harmonics.....sure the main signal is notched out but what about the harmonic of the signal? Harmonics is what is going to cause this to be a bigger then ham radio thing. Also, BPL is being promoted by the FCC to be able to bring broadband internet to rural America and that just ain't so. Rural users typically have older power delivery systems when compared to the urban folks and those are not always going to be able to carry BPL.
The BIG reason power companies want BPL is so that THEY can use it for reading your meter. They want to make your electric meter to be adressable and able to be read over the internet. They also want to have teh transformers and what not be able to report their status over it as well. BPL is about cutting some costs for electrical companies and it's just a bonus that they can add ISP to thier hat as well.
Gorkman
querist wrote: If those power lines go down there will be no interference, but what if they are still up and there is a major emergency?
Er...if BPL is up in said emergency, and ham fails, then why not just use the BPL connection?
Also, consider that once BPL comes around, it probably won't be long before the same company sells digital phone over the same lines. Therefore, there will be internet and phone communications as long as BPL signal is up, and if lines or the signal are down, then ham can cut in.
Then, Gorkon wrote: The BIG reason power companies want BPL is so that THEY can use it for reading your meter. They want to make your electric meter to be adressable and able to be read over the internet. They also want to have teh transformers and what not be able to report their status over it as well. BPL is about cutting some costs for electrical companies and it's just a bonus that they can add ISP to thier hat as well.
Sounds great. I'd rather have them read my meter over the internet than have them snooping around in my yard. That's better privacy. Also, while meter readers will be out of a job, it will create IT jobs -- and IT labor demand benefits me, as well as many other slashdotters.
And if I could get some competition for cable internet, which is the ONLY broadband available in my rural location...that sounds like a win-win-win situation! Damn the ham, full speed ahead!
Procrastination -- because good things come to those who wait.
For someone who is supposedly advocating "egalitarianism-oriented" free speech, you seem awfully quick to hand a PUBLIC RESOURCE called the RF spectrum over to a tiny group of PRIVATE CORPORATIONS.
In case you haven't thought about it yet, there is nothing "free" or "egalitarian" about BPL. It will be under corporate control, accessible only to those who can/will pay for it. Contrast this with amateur radio, which is more or less the last vestige of non-corporate, decentralized, communications technology left in existence. Anyone who can pass a simple test can get on the air and communicate worldwide without any dependence on power companies, telecom giants, or huge media conglomerates.
Destroying public access to the radio spectrum via BPL is just one more move that will keep people dependent on corporations for EVERYTHING. Don't you think that individuals should have SOMEway to communicate and disseminate information that doesn't depend on big business?
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I can't imagine where you got that silly idea...
The fundamental technology is still distance limited. In fact, given natural and artificial interference factors from pre-existing spectrum users (not just ham radio operators, but everything on Shortwave) the distance limitations may be even more severe than those imposed by the telcos.
Hams aren't the only objecting group. They're merely the loudest. Most of the others, such as short wave broadcasters and trans-oceanic air traffic, Ship to shore Marine communications and the like don't have a constituency that the FCC will give much credence to.
Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
You should support amateur radio.
We provide critical communication after a disaster. When four hurricanes hit my area a year ago, guess who handled communications between red cross shelters? Power was out... The phone lines were down... The cell towers were down... The wind was too fierce to send smoke signals. Amateur radio operators were just about the only method of communication.
And if BPL comes to town, there goes amateur radio. If the airwaves are blanketed with noise, nobody will invest in the expensive equipment, and of course they will not get any practice using it. And even IF the disaster wiped out the BPL noise in that area, a ham would have nobody to talk to, becuase the neighboring states would still have the noise.
So, let's assume that BPL does notch out amateur radio frequencies. Then, only some military channels, some shortwave channels, and some ship-to-shore radio frequencies are knocked out. No big deal, unless you happen to be on a ship or trying to listen to shortwave radio.
So, notching is not the answer. If you notch out ALL frequencies, then you can't transmit anything. And the more you notch out, the less bandwidth you have for sending data. And no matter WHERE your energies go, you will step on somebody's toes.
The frequencies below 30MHz (and sometimes all frequencies below 50MHz) have the wonderful quality of being able to travel entirely around the world. It is not uncommon for an amateur radio operator to talk to people thousands of miles away on at little at 5 watts. So, it is not hard to see that if BPL is introduced in every community in the USA, this will make the HF spectrum mostly unusable for THE ENTIRE WORLD. Actually, I am surprised that there is not some sort of treaty that would prevent this BPL nonsense.
Actually, I would love for the power companies to provide broadband. But they should have to do it over shielded cables, just like everybody else.
"-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
Emergency supplies in area B, where power is still on, can not recive signal from area A ham because area B BPL is still interfering with the signal.
There are two points in a point to point link, if one point has too much noise to hear the other, there is no way to communicate. So basically Hams in disaster areas would only be able to communicate with other Hams in other disaster areas.